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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Mar 2023 : 21:24:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
George Martin did the same thing with one of his principal characters; it seems that fantasy authors hailing from Earth can't resist inserting certain nicknames.
To be fair, some nicknames are obvious. We've seen, in Realms novels, Elminster shortened to "El" for example.
Still, why is it always "Dani"/"Danny"? Why not "Dan"? In Danica's case, why not "Nica"/"Nikka"/"Neeka"? To any of these suggestions, you may say, "It sounds silly.", but that is by our (the collective "our" of humanity  ) standards; these folks are from a fictional world...their norms are not always going to align with those of an Earth culture.
As for Elminster? I can imagine someone opposed to his lectures/admonitions giving him the name of "Minister".
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've been thinking on this a bit more... While I do prefer to see recognizable real-world names avoided, I guess that even in a fantasy world, names we think of as real-world names could quite naturally appear by happenstance.
... ... ...
So I guess that it's not outside the realm of possibility for parents in a fantasy setting to say "Hey, Jack is a good name!" or something like that... Though it'd still be better if the spelling was tweaked slightly; Jack Ravenswild and Jak Fleet have phonetically identical first names, but one is blatantly real-world and the other is at least tweaked a bit and doesn't break immersion as readily. (Though I'll never get over a guy named Ravenswild being from Raven's Bluff)
What this boils down to is where you lie on the spectrum between trying to abide by some rough notion of probability (some might say "realism") and trying to maintain an atmosphere that keeps a wholly fictional setting distinct from our own world. On more than one occasion, I've set aside that which is "realistic" because I was aiming for a specific tone and that particular "realism" would have introduced a familiarity that overshadowed the fantasy. As you and many others know, the trick to preserving immersion is finding the right balance for each given consideration.
Speaking of which, one of my newest pet peeves that I've come to recognize after many years of media consumption is the propensity for creators (chiefly from the U.S.A., but I would not be surprised to discover that this practice occurs in other English speaking nations) to take non-Western names (I say "Western" for lack of a better categorization, but they could simply be names common to the states or England in particular) or even entirely fictional names and then either abbreviate them or morph them into forms that are readily recognizable to Anglo audiences. The reasons "why" are obvious: they're pandering to both the lowest common denominator (i.e., the unintelligent, or, more charitably, the impatient) and the parochial folks. However, in the process, the unique nature of an individual's name is stripped away and everything becomes a little more homogenized. Blech. There is a germane example in a video game whose title I can't recall; a character from the myth of Sun Wukong called Tripitaka ends up receiving the diminutive of "Trip"...which sticks with them for the remainder of the story. An exotic figure originating from an Eastern tale becomes a race car driver  .
Incidentally, I appreciate how an increasing number of Irish and Welsh actors involved in Hollywood productions (perhaps moving to a residence in the states) choose to keep their birth names throughout their work instead of adopting conventional stage names for public life. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2023 : 21:52:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Still, why is it always "Dani"/"Danny"? Why not "Dan"? In Danica's case, why not "Nica"/"Nikka"/"Neeka"? To any of these suggestions, you may say, "It sounds silly.", but that is by our (the collective "our" of humanity ) standards; these folks are from a fictional world...their norms are not always going to align with those of an Earth culture.
Any of those names work... But nicknames based on real names often draw from the first syllable. In the real world, Christopher is almost always shortened to Chris instead of Toph. William becomes Will, not Iam. David becomes Dave, not Vid. Nicole becomes Nikki, not Cole.
Eugene is one of the few exceptions I can readily think of, but it's likely that it's easier to say Gene than to call some Euge.
And it's also not uncommon to add a long e sound. Ann becomes Annie. Donald becomes Donnie. Stephanie can be Steph, but I've also seen Stephie.
So Dani is an obvious shortening of Danica, more obvious that Nica or any of the alternatives.
The better choice would have been a name other than Danica, but in this particular case, we're speaking of an author who has admitted to having issues coming up with names.
(At least no one tried shortening Cadderly to Caddy or Cad, even though these would be obvious options) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Mar 2023 21:53:34 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2023 : 22:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Still, why is it always "Dani"/"Danny"? Why not "Dan"? In Danica's case, why not "Nica"/"Nikka"/"Neeka"? To any of these suggestions, you may say, "It sounds silly.", but that is by our (the collective "our" of humanity ) standards; these folks are from a fictional world...their norms are not always going to align with those of an Earth culture.
Any of those names work... But nicknames based on real names often draw from the first syllable. In the real world, Christopher is almost always shortened to Chris instead of Toph. William becomes Will, not Iam. David becomes Dave, not Vid. Nicole becomes Nikki, not Cole.
Eugene is one of the few exceptions I can readily think of, but it's likely that it's easier to say Gene than to call some Euge.
And it's also not uncommon to add a long e sound. Ann becomes Annie. Donald becomes Donnie. Stephanie can be Steph, but I've also seen Stephie.
So Dani is an obvious shortening of Danica, more obvious that Nica or any of the alternatives.
The better choice would have been a name other than Danica, but in this particular case, we're speaking of an author who has admitted to having issues coming up with names.
(At least no one tried shortening Cadderly to Caddy or Cad, even though these would be obvious options)
The latter nickname is especially incongruent, because "Cad" is already a noun and one that is far from the Deneiran's nature; I'd expect that kind of naming convention in a Star Wars work featuring a smuggler. Anyhow, my broader point was that a DM or a writer - a creator - doesn't need to be locked into following a method (and a frequently informal one, at that) to a T, Earth name or otherwise. If breaking away at any point better serves your needs, then, by all means...kick that orthodoxy to the curb. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2023 : 22:38:43
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| I get that, but I'm also saying that it's generally more natural to stick with the first syllable. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2023 : 21:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I get that, but I'm also saying that it's generally more natural to stick with the first syllable.
To us, certainly. I just wonder why fantasy authors so often abide by this oft-unspoken rule of thumb when they've got an entirely fictional playground to explore. Throw us for a loop! |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2023 : 13:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I get that, but I'm also saying that it's generally more natural to stick with the first syllable.
Maybe in english-speaking countries, in Italy we got lots of nicknames going for the last syllable (Peppe, Lele, Tina, Checco/Ciccio/Cisco [depends on the region], etc...). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2023 : 15:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I get that, but I'm also saying that it's generally more natural to stick with the first syllable.
Maybe in english-speaking countries, in Italy we got lots of nicknames going for the last syllable (Peppe, Lele, Tina, Checco/Ciccio/Cisco [depends on the region], etc...).
Oh, we've got a fair number of last-syllable nicknames, too, like Beth, Gene, or Tina... I guess it would be better to say that the most emphasized syllable is oft the one a name gets shortened to -- and that's often at the beginning of the name. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2023 : 00:46:28
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| Demzer, what is your opinion on the presence of real-life names in a Forgotten Realms tale (be it penned by an author or acted out by multiple people)? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2023 : 13:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Demzer, what is your opinion on the presence of real-life names in a Forgotten Realms tale (be it penned by an author or acted out by multiple people)?
Like Wooly, I would prefer a bit of creativity (a letter swap here, an added consonant there) to "disguise" the names but in a world full of people like FR I guess there will be space for a couple of "Jack Something" and "Tom Something-Else" so it's also a matter of frequency.
The tricky part is that we, the audience, come from all over the world and many different cultures with different naming conventions so it's really tough to please everyone.
Something that irks me, due to me not being accustomed to it in real life, is the "surnaming convention" of having people called, for example, Jack Shoemaker and having them making boots. I'm just not used to surnames having direct translations and being directly tied to the activities the characters do for a living.
So, Jack Shoemaker irks me, Jack Brinduil or Jaske Shoemaker irk me a little less and Jaske Brinduil (who still makes boots) doesn't irk me at all.
But I've been a DM for long enough to know how difficult it is to come up with dozens of names while avoiding repetitions, unpronounceability and keeping it fantasy enough.
Oh and please keep RAS away from naming crime cartel figures in "Italian" ways, it would be offensive if the results were not so ridiculously stupid |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2023 : 15:46:18
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To be fair, a lot of real-world surnames are drawn directly from occupations. Miller, Smith, Cooper, Potter, Mason, Tailor/Taylor, Thatcher, Baker, Cook, Fisher, Shepherd, Gardner, Fowler, Wheeler, Hooper... There's more, but that's a good sample.
Though I do agree that's not what we expect to see in fantasy; I'd accept "Jak the shoemaker" or "Jak the cobbler" long before "Jak Shoemaker."
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2023 : 03:57:27
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"Bauer", "Tanner", "Fletcher", "Bowman" and the like are so common and so rooted in ancient professions (the kind of professions which were vital in medieval societies, incidentally) that I don't consider them problematic. I'd raise an eyebrow at something in the vein of "Blogger", however  .
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Oh and please keep RAS away from naming crime cartel figures in "Italian" ways, it would be offensive if the results were not so ridiculously stupid
A while back, someone commented that Salvatore's tendency to choose Italian-themed names for underworld figures was thanks to the philosophy of "Writing what you know."; whether that was because he grew up in a place with criminal elements descended from Italians or because he really enjoyed Coppola/Scorsese flicks is up in the air. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2023 : 00:45:24
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| Are all the "O'" and "Mc" names automatically excluded on the grounds that they are too evocative of people that originate from famous real-world island nations? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2023 : 03:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Are all the "O'" and "Mc" names automatically excluded on the grounds that they are too evocative of people that originate from famous real-world island nations?
I would exclude them, and I would similarly exclude surnames ending in -stein or -ski. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2023 : 22:57:02
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| I would exclude nonsense names such as Hdbxllesf or naming children after extraplanar entities. I am aware some FR characters are named after deities such as Helm or Torm. That said, calling your child "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu" is bad for in-game and our-of-game reasons. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2023 : 23:39:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Are all the "O'" and "Mc" names automatically excluded on the grounds that they are too evocative of people that originate from famous real-world island nations?
I would exclude them, and I would similarly exclude surnames ending in -stein or -ski.
What if we were to exercise a morsel of creativity? I haven't seen many McSteins or O'Skis walking around, have you ?
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I would exclude nonsense names such as Hdbxllesf
There go the Welsh! |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2023 : 10:08:56
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| Here's one that I have yet to implement: an NPC with a surname in a foreign tongue, but without any accompanying explanatory mixed heritage. Just why is that Sembian merchant named "Forgesmasher" in old Dwarvish? Such an oddity - once the PCs catch wind of its existence - could be the start of character development, maybe even an adventure...or it could merely be incidental flavor that briefly disrupts cultural homogeneity. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2023 : 13:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Here's one that I have yet to implement: an NPC with a surname in a foreign tongue, but without any accompanying explanatory mixed heritage. Just why is that Sembian merchant named "Forgesmasher" in old Dwarvish? Such an oddity - once the PCs catch wind of its existence - could be the start of character development, maybe even an adventure...or it could merely be incidental flavor that briefly disrupts cultural homogeneity.
I now picture a shield dwarf with an Elvish language surname that translates to "Orcson" or "Orcdottir". |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2023 : 12:41:50
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| Usually, in fiction (and real life, to an extent), a lengthy name/title is indicative of influence if not outright station. However...what if the opposite were true? What if you - a commoner - are born into a long name and can only shorten this designation by ascending the social strata? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2023 : 18:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Usually, in fiction (and real life, to an extent), a lengthy name/title is indicative of influence if not outright station. However...what if the opposite were true? What if you - a commoner - are born into a long name and can only shorten this designation by ascending the social strata?
There's a sci-fi novel with AIs like that. The lowest form of AI has 6 names, all common words. The further up the AI food chain, the fewer names -- to the Sovereign AIs, of which there's only a few, who have just one name.
One of the main characters is a robot named Nineteen Black Winter, who is a pop culture junkie. At one point, he's asked what his name would be if he became a Sovereign AI, and his response was "Winter, of course. Heh, 'winter is coming.'" (The person he was talking to didn't catch that reference) |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2023 : 23:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Usually, in fiction (and real life, to an extent), a lengthy name/title is indicative of influence if not outright station. However...what if the opposite were true? What if you - a commoner - are born into a long name and can only shorten this designation by ascending the social strata?
Ironically, it is often the other way around, particularly in medieval societies.
Take Superman. He's Clark Kent. Or is he?
Well in medieval times, as John and Martha Kent were landowners but were not entitled or enfeoffed (their estate is theirs, not another's grant to them), Clark would be known by where his family's land was located. He'd be Clark DeSmallville.
As Clark doesn't live and work on his family's land and he isn't titled, he might prefer to be known by his professional standing, as it gives him social status as a yeoman rather than a peasant. So he might call himself Clark Scrivener or Clark Newsman.
Alternatively, he might, if Jonathan Kent's social standing outside Smallville was important, call himself or be known as Clark Johnson.
But as Clark's adoption was not exactly a normal one some might question his legitimacy and call him Clark Fitzjonathan.
If he were a mid-ranking noble, on the other hand, he would just be known by his title; Clark, Viscount Smallville.
And finally, if he were a king, he would use even less than that. Just a regnal name; Kal-El I |
Edited by - BlackAce on 05 Sep 2023 23:43:39 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2023 : 02:06:08
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| And then there was Tharchion Homen Odesseiron |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2023 : 17:42:35
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| The original seven fishing villages that founded Nethwril were named after the members of the Ian Gillan Band. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2023 : 05:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
The original seven fishing villages that founded Nethwril were named after the members of the Ian Gillan Band.
Wasn't Deep Purple another source of names for that boxed set? I seem to recall reading that somewhere, though I'm not familiar with the group. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2023 : 07:25:55
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| Ian Gillan was a member of Deep Purple too, so Wooly's source is technically correct. In any case, I found another reason to roll my eyes at the Netheril boxed set, which was a bit disappointing. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2023 : 08:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Usually, in fiction (and real life, to an extent), a lengthy name/title is indicative of influence if not outright station. However...what if the opposite were true? What if you - a commoner - are born into a long name and can only shorten this designation by ascending the social strata?
There's a sci-fi novel with AIs like that. The lowest form of AI has 6 names, all common words. The further up the AI food chain, the fewer names -- to the Sovereign AIs, of which there's only a few, who have just one name.
One of the main characters is a robot named Nineteen Black Winter, who is a pop culture junkie. At one point, he's asked what his name would be if he became a Sovereign AI, and his response was "Winter, of course. Heh, 'winter is coming.'" (The person he was talking to didn't catch that reference)
The following is what I have in mind.
quote:
Bobalethoga Macrathiss the Second of the Granite Plains -> Bob (the king).
Each DM/player can decide how the former name is pared/incrementally modified during each intervening step until the (final) latter name is achieved. Yeah yeah...the above example is not particularly germane with this setting of ours (talk about mundane!), but it is firmly illustrative of the concept. Bobalethoga conducts his day-to-day affairs in relative obscurity...the same as his father (Bobalethoga Macrathiss Senior) and his cousin thrice-removed (Bobalethoga Macrathiss the Second of the Azure Sea); however, everyone knows Bob. There's only one Bob.
P.S. Thank you for the supporting example! What is the title of the novel in question?
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Usually, in fiction (and real life, to an extent), a lengthy name/title is indicative of influence if not outright station. However...what if the opposite were true? What if you - a commoner - are born into a long name and can only shorten this designation by ascending the social strata?
Ironically, it is often the other way around, particularly in medieval societies.
Take Superman. He's Clark Kent. Or is he?
Well in medieval times, as John and Martha Kent were landowners but were not entitled or enfeoffed (their estate is theirs, not another's grant to them), Clark would be known by where his family's land was located. He'd be Clark DeSmallville.
As Clark doesn't live and work on his family's land and he isn't titled, he might prefer to be known by his professional standing, as it gives him social status as a yeoman rather than a peasant. So he might call himself Clark Scrivener or Clark Newsman.
Alternatively, he might, if Jonathan Kent's social standing outside Smallville was important, call himself or be known as Clark Johnson.
But as Clark's adoption was not exactly a normal one some might question his legitimacy and call him Clark Fitzjonathan.
If he were a mid-ranking noble, on the other hand, he would just be known by his title; Clark, Viscount Smallville.
And finally, if he were a king, he would use even less than that. Just a regnal name; Kal-El I
Then perhaps this (i.e., the implicit association of preeminence with florid titles) is an "anachronistic" quality applied to quasi-medieval fantasy settings? I use those quotation marks because a fictional setting that derives inspiration from the real-world is not strictly beholden to historical fact . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2023 : 05:13:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Usually, in fiction (and real life, to an extent), a lengthy name/title is indicative of influence if not outright station. However...what if the opposite were true? What if you - a commoner - are born into a long name and can only shorten this designation by ascending the social strata?
There's a sci-fi novel with AIs like that. The lowest form of AI has 6 names, all common words. The further up the AI food chain, the fewer names -- to the Sovereign AIs, of which there's only a few, who have just one name.
One of the main characters is a robot named Nineteen Black Winter, who is a pop culture junkie. At one point, he's asked what his name would be if he became a Sovereign AI, and his response was "Winter, of course. Heh, 'winter is coming.'" (The person he was talking to didn't catch that reference)
The following is what I have in mind.
quote:
Bobalethoga Macrathiss the Second of the Granite Plains -> Bob (the king).
Each DM/player can decide how the former name is pared/incrementally modified during each intervening step until the (final) latter name is achieved. Yeah yeah...the above example is not particularly germane with this setting of ours (talk about mundane!), but it is firmly illustrative of the concept. Bobalethoga conducts his day-to-day affairs in relative obscurity...the same as his father (Bobalethoga Macrathiss Senior) and his cousin thrice-removed (Bobalethoga Macrathiss the Second of the Azure Sea); however, everyone knows Bob. There's only one Bob.
P.S. Thank you for the supporting example! What is the title of the novel in question?
The Robots of Gotham. I won't say it's the best book I've ever read, but if the sequel ever comes out, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2023 : 03:32:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
The original seven fishing villages that founded Nethwril were named after the members of the Ian Gillan Band.
Damn, it feels good to be a philistine. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2023 : 19:43:40
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| A 5e adventure in Phlan features (or, should I say, featured) one "Ector Brahms" (Human); they should have went whole hog and slapped in an "H" at the start. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 01:09:04
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| Before I take on the unenviable task of reinventing the wheel, I'd like to know: is there anything official on cross-racial marriages regarding name changes (e.g., equivalents to "née")? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
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NPC names: mundane versus exotic?
