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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2007 :  07:30:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the speedy reply, GK.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2008 :  20:55:14  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Antediluvian means "before the flood" (just as antebellum means "before the war"), which, with respect to Earth, refers to the period before the biblical flood of Noah, in Genesis. The flood is thought by some to have occurred between 4,000-5,000 years ago and thus antediluvian describes a period that is very ancient or prehistoric.

But with respect to the Realms, I would use the word specifically to refer to ancient Jhaamdath, before the flood in -255 DR. That is still very ancient, over 1,600 years ago. But in the Realms, where written history extends much further back into the past than on Earth, it is comparatively recent. Especially when 16 centuries is recent enough that certain individuals yet living to this day can bear witness to the event, or at least were living at the time of the flood.

Antediluvian is the perfect adjective to describe the golden age of Jhaamdath, and by extension pre-fall Netheril whose era of glory overlapped greatly the time of Jhaamdath.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2008 :  21:10:38  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brian, here is a question for you: in the Grand History of the Realms, on the Days of Thunder map, there are some very intriguing names--Kolophoon, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda.

I didn't see these names anywhere else in the chronology (unless I missed it) nor in your former PDF document. I was wondering if you could tell us if the names were yours, or Ed's, or something the artist came up with, and further I was hoping you might be able to tell us what species lived in each of those regions, and anything more about these "nations" that you can share.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2008 :  22:55:04  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Antediluvian means "before the flood" (just as antebellum means "before the war"), which, with respect to Earth, refers to the period before the biblical flood of Noah, in Genesis. The flood is thought by some to have occurred between 4,000-5,000 years ago and thus antediluvian describes a period that is very ancient or prehistoric.



It's also a hyperbolic way of suggesting that something is old-fashioned or out of date.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2008 :  04:24:59  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kolophoon, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda, along with Zhoukoudien and Pourounkorokale are all Batrachi Empires. I had briefly mentioned Zhoukoudien in my Candlekeep IV article, but I wanted there to be multiple batrachi nations represented on the map so the names were all pulled out of my head.

I sketched out the following lore for a possible future Candlekeep or Realmslore article Gray. Use it or discard it as you see fit:

Pourounkorokale is the longest lived of the batrachi nations and existed entirely underneath the southern waters of the Black Sea (modern day Shining Sea). From their crystalline cities the wise tako ruled over tribes of kuo-toa, locathah, and other species of aquatic batrachi. Though Pourounkorokale survived the fall of great Batrachi Empires, their race became nearly extinct with the ensuing war against conquering seawurms and the ultimate betrayal by their sahuagin allies. Survivors fled through the Strait of Lopango to new homes in the Sea of Corynactis (west of modern day Maztica).

The domain of Boitumelo was centered on the ancient Narrow Sea (in modern day Anauroch). This realm of loosely confederated nations was peopled by tribes of kappa, sivs, and grippli.

The lands surrounding and beneath the modern day Wizards Reach and Alamber Sea were the domain of the Kolophoon Sovereignty. Here aboleths ruled supreme over their kopru and froghemoth servitors and it is thought that these primordial batrachi opened gates to the Far Realm unleashing the first aberrations upon Abeir-Toril.

The largest of the batrachi surface nations, Zhoukoudien, was ruled by an unnamed amphibian species whose descendants became bullywugs. Their wars against the giants are legendary and it is thought that their misguided actions led to the Tearfall and the ensuing Seven Turn Winter.

Nadezhda was a great forested region (in modern day Maztica) once populated by human tribes which migrated across the Strait of Lopango to flee enslavement by the Yuan-ti of Mhairshaulk. Their respite was short lived, however, as the human tribes were quickly infiltrated and eventually supplanted by batrachi doppelgangers. Nadezhda ultimately fell to Aearee expansion as that race moved into the region.

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Brian, here is a question for you: in the Grand History of the Realms, on the Days of Thunder map, there are some very intriguing names--Kolophoon, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda.

I didn't see these names anywhere else in the chronology (unless I missed it) nor in your former PDF document. I was wondering if you could tell us if the names were yours, or Ed's, or something the artist came up with, and further I was hoping you might be able to tell us what species lived in each of those regions, and anything more about these "nations" that you can share.


Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2008 :  20:37:27  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks! That is some wonderful lore. It's great to learn some context and history to go with those intriguing names!
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Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2008 :  01:53:39  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i found the map on page 44-45 because it gave me an idea about how far Ammarindar reached (for in which areas it would be reasonable to find ruins of the place) ... but i would like some clearifications on it ...

does Ammarindar reach into nowdays Anauroch or does it basicly run (in clockwise) from the nortwesten border of High Moor, along High Forest/River Delimbiyr and up to somewhere in Nether Mountains and down along Anauroch to Marsh of Chelimber?

as far as i remember there isn't all that much mentioned about Ammarindar but is there of your knowledge any fluff about the country not allready told about in GHotR, Dwarves Deep or the Volo guide in dragon #351 (or whereever it was ... never remember) about the thrones?

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2008 :  02:28:17  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sian

as far as i remember there isn't all that much mentioned about Ammarindar but is there of your knowledge any fluff about the country not allready told about in GHotR, Dwarves Deep or the Volo guide in dragon #351 (or whereever it was ... never remember) about the thrones?
There's another "detailed source" on Ammarindar... Eric Boyd's brain and hard drive.

There's also some [very] brief references in the Hellgate Keep module, and Lands of Intrigue. As I recall, Cormanthyr talks about how some clans from Ammarindar migrate to Myth Drannor. There's also Brian's dwarf-centric Realms chronology:- Xoth Jakolor. Some of this has been referenced in Grand History, though the "Xoth Jakolor" chronology lists the various sources used to compile it.

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Edited by - The Sage on 09 Jan 2008 02:29:27
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2008 :  14:44:17  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello Sian. My thoughts would be that Ammarindar did not extend into Anauroch. I believe it appears that way on the map due to the font used and the length of the word Ammarindar. I agree with The Sage that Eric Boyd (and possibly George Krashos) is the leading authority on Ammarindar and may be able to provide you additional details not found in other sources.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames

Edited by - Brian R. James on 09 Jan 2008 14:44:55
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2008 :  14:46:24  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm. Some of those dates in Xoth Jakolor are now out of date. I may have to update that timeline!

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2008 :  11:48:43  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Brian for the Moonshae write-up on the WoTC site

One thing jumps out at me immediately: 299DR and the intervention of Flamsterd in the downfall of the Mad Kings.

Flamsterd is one of my 'Realmslore Mysteries', one that I can't get enough of. I don't suppose you have any more lore about the old fella do you? Does his history stretch back further than 299DR or is this his first 'major contribution' to the Realms as a powerful wizard i.e. is he born in that time period, or is he a lot older? (a refugee of Netheril?)

There is also a large time span between his first and second inclusion in the time lime (c.1000 years), any thoughts on his whereabouts/plots/plans during this time?

Off searching for the means to extend his lifespan? In stasis awaiting the time he is needed again? or just quietly getting on with protecting his home and helping folks develop themselves?


I love the little piece about Anhaern Rhyllgallohyr as well, fits nicely into the write up from Ed's Moonshae module (HoTHK).

Thanks for an excellent article

Damian

EDIT: Meant to add, that I like the 'old' map of the Isles when they first formed, seems uncannily like the description Ed gave of what the Moonshaes looked like in the home Realms campaign.....

So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005

Edited by - crazedventurers on 11 Jan 2008 12:03:33
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BlackMoria
Acolyte

Canada
36 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2008 :  17:02:27  Show Profile  Visit BlackMoria's Homepage Send BlackMoria a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really appreciated the timeline of the Moonshaes. Brian, is it your intention to do more 'regional' timelines or it is a one-off sort of thing?
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2008 :  01:31:29  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the kind words Damian.

Unfortunately, I don't have any additional lore about old Flamsterd. I believe Ed created this character and may know more about his origins and his fate.

You're spot on about the Anhaern Rhyllgallohyr reference from Halls of the High King. I tried to mine as much lore from that adventure as I could and include it in the timeline.

Kudos! You are the first to comment on my homage to Ed's Earthsea-like Moonshaes. Well done. I never saw Ed's original map, so I hope it is a close approximation of his vision.

quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers

Thanks Brian for the Moonshae write-up on the WoTC site

One thing jumps out at me immediately: 299DR and the intervention of Flamsterd in the downfall of the Mad Kings.

Flamsterd is one of my 'Realmslore Mysteries', one that I can't get enough of. I don't suppose you have any more lore about the old fella do you? Does his history stretch back further than 299DR or is this his first 'major contribution' to the Realms as a powerful wizard i.e. is he born in that time period, or is he a lot older? (a refugee of Netheril?)

There is also a large time span between his first and second inclusion in the time lime (c.1000 years), any thoughts on his whereabouts/plots/plans during this time?

Off searching for the means to extend his lifespan? In stasis awaiting the time he is needed again? or just quietly getting on with protecting his home and helping folks develop themselves?


I love the little piece about Anhaern Rhyllgallohyr as well, fits nicely into the write up from Ed's Moonshae module (HoTHK).

Thanks for an excellent article

Damian

EDIT: Meant to add, that I like the 'old' map of the Isles when they first formed, seems uncannily like the description Ed gave of what the Moonshaes looked like in the home Realms campaign.....



Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2008 :  01:34:42  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not currently scheduled to write another regional timeline, but I would be happy to do so if Wizards permitted it. Any suggestions for the next region you would like to see covered in more detail?

quote:
Originally posted by BlackMoria

I really appreciated the timeline of the Moonshaes. Brian, is it your intention to do more 'regional' timelines or it is a one-off sort of thing?


Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2008 :  01:46:24  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Unfortunately, I don't have any additional lore about old Flamsterd. I believe Ed created this character and may know more about his origins and his fate.
Indeed. Flamsterd's one of the remnants of Ed's original Moonshaes.

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chance87
Seeker

50 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2008 :  03:20:04  Show Profile Send chance87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This was truly exceptional, Brian. I'll have to re-read it a couple of times, and print the pages to stuff into my copy of GHotR.

How about another area we don't see much info on in print? Maybe the Dragon Coast?

quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

I'm not currently scheduled to write another regional timeline, but I would be happy to do so if Wizards permitted it. Any suggestions for the next region you would like to see covered in more detail?

quote:
Originally posted by BlackMoria

I really appreciated the timeline of the Moonshaes. Brian, is it your intention to do more 'regional' timelines or it is a one-off sort of thing?



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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2008 :  02:19:06  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Dragon Coast is a great suggestion chance87. I might add The Vast to the list as well.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames
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Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2008 :  02:46:57  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i would personally love to see the Bloodstone lands (Vaasa and Damara) even more fleshed out than they have been till now ... one of the things i've wondered about is if Damara will ever get to the point where they take over control of Vaasa 'officialy' (as three was talkings of in 2E but i don't seem to remember any real update other than status quo in 3e

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
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Verghityax
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2008 :  23:55:54  Show Profile  Visit Verghityax's Homepage Send Verghityax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dear Brian,
Some time ago I ordered my copy of GHotR and received it about 2 weeks ago. It took me some time to get through all this yumy fluff but it was absolutely worth it. You really done a splendid job. It must have been a great feeling to incorporate your own ideas into the Realms canon. I also have a question which is of great importance to me as I'm writing an article about Ibrandul. In Grand History you've written that in -530 DR some nomadic tribes from Calimshan were enslaved by the drow from Guallidurth as an outcome of the Night Wars and after centuries of evolution in Underdark they became skulks. Now, in 2nd edition's "Faiths & Avatars" sourcebook, it is said that some time after the enslavement of nomadic tribes but still before the rise of the Shoon Empire, Ibrandul came and freed the slaves. What I would like to know is the more-or-less date of the birth of Ibrandul's cult. Also if you have any bits of historical lore about this dead deity it would be very useful. Thanks in advance for any help.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2008 :  14:42:38  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iím afraid my knowledge of Ibrandulís cult is limited Verghityax. As Ibrandul was primarily worshiped by Calishites, itís possible that Steven Schend would know more of their origins. Of course Eric Boyd is well known as an expert on a multitude of deities so it may be beneficial to ask your question on his scroll as well. Sorry I couldnít be more of a help.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames
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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
942 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2008 :  08:55:04  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unless I am mistaken, the only knowledge we have on Ibrandul's cult comes from Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities (Lolth has taken up a few of his Underdark "gray" druids), and the Calimport sourcebook.

Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!

Gśū a wyrd swa hio scel!

In memory of Alura Durshavin.

Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of FaerŻn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36611 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2008 :  11:09:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe the first reference to Ibrandul was in the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set, as part of the ibrandlin monster entry.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2008 :  11:46:25  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly is indeed correct. The first mention of Ibrandul was in the write-up of the ibrandlin on the looseleaf MC sheet in Ruins of Undermountain.

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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Hawkfeather
Seeker

Brazil
64 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2008 :  21:31:54  Show Profile Send Hawkfeather a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

The Dragon Coast is a great suggestion chance87. I might add The Vast to the list as well.



Please, Brian, add The Vast to the list!!
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Zanan
Senior Scribe

Germany
942 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2008 :  22:39:49  Show Profile  Visit Zanan's Homepage Send Zanan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Wooly is indeed correct. The first mention of Ibrandul was in the write-up of the ibrandlin on the looseleaf MC sheet in Ruins of Undermountain.




Well, Wooly is a Master of Mieschief and as such, he would know such details! (BTW, in essence, most of the AD&D material that there is to know appears in the F&A entry. The other sources either formed part of it, or are simply out-takes of it. ... and he was one of the more interesting deities in days gone by.)

Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!

Gśū a wyrd swa hio scel!

In memory of Alura Durshavin.

Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of FaerŻn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more.
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Verghityax
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2008 :  14:18:27  Show Profile  Visit Verghityax's Homepage Send Verghityax a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you all for help :)
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chance87
Seeker

50 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2008 :  04:12:51  Show Profile Send chance87 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the new preview, Brian. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080227a&authentic=true

While I continue to find it hard to support the changes to the Realms, I do appreciate the quality of work being done. Although almost everything else in the article will go into the circular file IMC, I do like the cities of Jhaamdath being revealed - I could build a whole campaign around that. Nice touch.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1098 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2008 :  05:43:28  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Chance. I respect that not everyone is going to like the 4E Realms, but if you're able to use anything at all out of the article then I'm satisfied. Indeed a mini-campaign exploring old Jhaamdath ruins would be great! If you do run something like that I'd love to hear how it turned out.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

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GS
Acolyte

14 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2008 :  16:58:45  Show Profile  Visit GS's Homepage Send GS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James in the Richard Baker scroll

Reread Chapter 11 in the novel Shadowdale, GS. Nothing is ever added 'just for the sake of it'.


I will Brian, thanks. I have not read that book in years. But why am I reading that chapter?

One question that you might answer, or at least think about. Now that the Sea of Fallen Stars has been partially drained, will the surrounding environment be dryer? I am think here of the Caspian Sea which was drained by USSR (by building dams) and has had quite a few adverse effects on surrounding lands. Will, say, Turmish have more desert/steppe landscapes or will things be unchanged? How about the canal that was 'recently' built from Innarlith to the Nagaflow? Can it still be used?

Anyway, keep up the good work.
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe

402 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2008 :  17:11:17  Show Profile  Visit ShadezofDis's Homepage Send ShadezofDis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Thanks Chance. I respect that not everyone is going to like the 4E Realms, but if you're able to use anything at all out of the article then I'm satisfied. Indeed a mini-campaign exploring old Jhaamdath ruins would be great! If you do run something like that I'd love to hear how it turned out.



Brian,

I'm curious if you thought about any changes to the Shining Plains when writing the article. While I'm not a big fan of the 4E changes I definitely enjoy your writing and your thoughts on the developments. My current campaign is probably going to be traveling through (gotta buy some horses for a ranch *g*) and any thoughts you had on the region would probably help me with some inspiration.
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