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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 19:36:27
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I've added a couple of new players to my game who are (ahem ... "who were") coming in with absurd Monty Haulish gew-gaws, gimcracks, feats, and prestige classes from non-Realms WotC books. I quickly put my foot down, and am about to ban almost all non-Realms prestige classes from my games, and have just ruled out two ridiculous weapons which were pretty much "Acme Insta-kills" if they hit low-level characters, but Shar's shinbones, where do we Realms DMs draw the line?
If someone comes to you, DM, with an established character, with bona fide experience, an actual history of having been played, and so on, but which would be a nightmare if unleashed in your Realms campaign, how do you deal with it? How do you determine what to cut back on and what to permit? This week, for instance, a player presented me with a character who not only had a history, but who had interacted with a published Realms NPC known to the current PCs; the character, however, had a +2 ECL AND class levels AND two prestige class levels; I told him that he would be playing an "alternate" version of his normal character and rid him of the two prestige levels, then three class levels, and then did away with non-Realmsian weapons for which he had Exotic Weapon proficientcies; he's agreed to play with those restrictions, but how close to the bone do other DMs think that I should pare such characters? Is it better to ask them to lose their ECL levels (which affects their character's personal identity) or their class levels (which affects the character's adventuring identity)?
I have run my campaign fairly slowly, letting characters build up their levels gradually through real role-playing, and by the gods, the PCs are "real" fictional characters, not cardboard cut-outs; they have dimensionality and personalities uniquely their own. Placing them side-by-side with a new player's "real" character might just stretch their parameters and force them to work harder, but it might just as easily get them killed, flushing years of hard-won experience down the drain. How do other DMs deal with this dichotomy?
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 21:04:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
If someone comes to you, DM, with an established character, with bona fide experience, an actual history of having been played, and so on, but which would be a nightmare if unleashed in your Realms campaign, how do you deal with it?
A reduction in the item's or the character's power. This 'bonafide' experience you mention was for that other game over there. Talk to the player. If he's unwilling to give up all of his Talos Trinkets or sexy Sunite Specials, he'll have to play something else, won't he? It's your game. You're not the one that needs to compromise should someone bring in characters and/or items into your game that are clearly out of your campaign's league. Come to a middle ground where you let him keep X but he must give up Y.
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How do you determine what to cut back on and what to permit?
Only you know the power level of your own game. Compare the character to others in your Realms, and adjust accordingly.
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I told him that he would be playing an "alternate" version of his normal character and rid him of the two prestige levels, then three class levels, and then did away with non-Realmsian weapons for which he had Exotic Weapon proficientcies; he's agreed to play with those restrictions, but how close to the bone do other DMs think that I should pare such characters?
He sounds fine with the adjustments, so it sounds like you did just fine. What's the problem?
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Is it better to ask them to lose their ECL levels (which affects their character's personal identity) or their class levels (which affects the character's adventuring identity)?
It doesn't matter which one. Pick the one you're most uncomfortable allowing into your game, or pick both.
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I have run my campaign fairly slowly, letting characters build up their levels gradually through real role-playing, and by the gods, the PCs are "real" fictional characters, not cardboard cut-outs; they have dimensionality and personalities uniquely their own. Placing them side-by-side with a new player's "real" character might just stretch their parameters and force them to work harder, but it might just as easily get them killed, flushing years of hard-won experience down the drain. How do other DMs deal with this dichotomy?
Hey, there's always the risk of work being lost in this game we love. That's why we play it, or at least, that's why I play it! It wouldn't be any fun if all we did was win every time. Adventurer and risk are synonyms in my games; you never have one without the other. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 21:12:13
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| I really wish that I had something profound or well reasoned to add, but I must admit that I've never had anyone with an existing character ask to play that character in one of my campaigns. Even when the average character level is higher, they have made up new characters. I'm afraid anything I could add would be sheer conjecture, and I'm not sure how helpful this would be. |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 02:07:38
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I should preclude this with the fact that I tend to be an anything goes kind of DM. This does not mean that I don't like to focus on the RP in my games though. As it has been said above only you can decide what's best for your campaign but below is the way I would see things.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I've added a couple of new players to my game who are (ahem ... "who were") coming in with absurd Monty Haulish gew-gaws, gimcracks, feats, and prestige classes from non-Realms WotC books. I quickly put my foot down, and am about to ban almost all non-Realms prestige classes from my games, and have just ruled out two ridiculous weapons which were pretty much "Acme Insta-kills" if they hit low-level characters, but Shar's shinbones, where do we Realms DMs draw the line?
Well having run both FR and non-FR campaigns I would say you are in luck. FR is better equipped to handle just about any character level, magical item, or feat. No matter how powerful your player's get there is always someone or thing you can throw against them. This is not always true for other settings. The old 1031 Campaign Setting box set said just this much suggesting players may end up in the Realms from places like Krynn when they have grown too tough and dangerous for their home world.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
If someone comes to you, DM, with an established character, with bona fide experience, an actual history of having been played, and so on, but which would be a nightmare if unleashed in your Realms campaign, how do you deal with it? How do you determine what to cut back on and what to permit? This week, for instance, a player presented me with a character who not only had a history, but who had interacted with a published Realms NPC known to the current PCs; the character, however, had a +2 ECL AND class levels AND two prestige class levels; I told him that he would be playing an "alternate" version of his normal character and rid him of the two prestige levels, then three class levels, and then did away with non-Realmsian weapons for which he had Exotic Weapon proficiencies; he's agreed to play with those restrictions, but how close to the bone do other DMs think that I should pare such characters? Is it better to ask them to lose their ECL levels (which affects their character's personal identity) or their class levels (which affects the character's adventuring identity)?
I think you are right in thinking that a player's races and classes define a character a lot. Going over the player's character sheet with a fine toothed come is a very good idea. And while you are doing this I would ask yourself how did this character make it to my world? Has he always been here or has he come from somewhere else?
If they are coming from another plane well you are in luck you have a catch all excuse to pretty much change anything. Old 1031 addresses this for AD&D but would be similar for 3E. It use to have you just drop classes till you had a legal character and would be as strict as not allowing races that didn't exist in the realms to come through, of course this was always up to the DM. The act of traveling through the planes strips and changes the character to make him able to exist in the Realms. This can also easily strip magical items leaving items that wouldn't exist in the Realms behind. If they already existed in FR well you will have to be a little more creative on how things happen or might just have to retcon come events.
Personally, I would allow most races and very likely most PrC to plane hop over unless it is not plausible for them to exist in FR. PrC that would make/use technology is a good example though I would replace them with some sort of base class. I would make sure to trim their magical items of course hopefully helping knock them down a notch so your currently players have something over them. Again you have the right idea when it comes to what to leave though, if the item is something that defines the character think twice about it. Maybe it disappears only temporarily.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I have run my campaign fairly slowly, letting characters build up their levels gradually through real role-playing, and by the gods, the PCs are "real" fictional characters, not cardboard cut-outs; they have dimensionality and personalities uniquely their own. Placing them side-by-side with a new player's "real" character might just stretch their parameters and force them to work harder, but it might just as easily get them killed, flushing years of hard-won experience down the drain. How do other DMs deal with this dichotomy?
This is a very valid concern. I actually began expirementing with something similar in my current campaign. When I moved it online after taking a job away from my players not all of them could make our weekly session. So I brought a new player on, I had the option of bringing him on at the same level as the other players or I thought this might be a great expirement to bring him on at level 1. He began three levels and after two years of roleplaying he is now at level 5 only 1 level behind the rest of the party.
Using 3.5s xp distribution system it will quickly even the playing field between your lower level players. Just make sure to calculate the EL appropriately and things will balance out fairly well. Your lower level players will level faster but they will also be challenged to get there. If the party determines that these new people are too dangerous to be around well maybe then consider having the higher level players roll up lower level PCs. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 04:48:08
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As a DM you have total rights on what you will allow and won't allow into a campaign.
I allow almost anything in my campaigns, and try to work with a person that is trying to bring an established character into my campaigns, however there have been times, especially with magic items, that I have either said, such an item is not allowed or will have to be toned down. Or there will be a drawback to them having such and item (that would be a global campaign affecting drawback, such as Wounding Weapons. I allow them, only on the condition that all Foes fought automatically have Wounding as a Supernatural ability on ALL Attacks).
Prestige Classes aren't usually an issue, unless they are 3rd party, then they can be oftentimes really broken.
My personal belief when it comes to multiclassing is as long as one has a valid and reasonable background, I will allow almost anything.
However, I also tend to ignore the rules for Favored Class and Multiclassing penalties. Unless, they do something "wonky" like a 20th level fighter suddenly deciding to become a Wizard, I don't care if they are Human/Elf/Half-Elf I will apply the penalty to them, for such a drastic change in class, however a change to another non-spellcaster class I might not depending on how the character's previous growth was. Such as a Fighter that took a good number of Stealth oriented feats/skills I would probably allow to multiclass to Rogue without any problems. |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 11:12:15
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Well it happens that you get this stuff from the “outside” and in this case I'm trying to balance my campaign as you did. If the new player is reasonable enough I’m trying to work this out with him on a more or less common basis. Sure nobody wants to loose anything of his character, but in my experience he (or she – if you are lucky enough ) is more willing to dispense with his class levels (these he might regain).
The problem you mentioned seemed to be a “big” one – ripping him of almost everything  – but as he agreed, this would be ok IMO.
I think in general all the players plus the DM should have a good time – and happy players are the key. But if I would allow someone new into my group without checking all that was mentioned before – I would have a whole bunch of unhappy “old” players…
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Dealing with non-Realms Monty Haulish stuff
