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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 17:12:49
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Poll Question:
which is more useful?
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The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 17:20:07
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| Talking 2ed. here of course, cleric. That is subjective however. I have had surprisingly few players take wizard characters come to think of it. |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 17:39:46
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| These are two complete different roles in the party. I cant vote for this one. |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 19:52:27
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| I can't vote on which is more useful, but I can say that I almost never play clerics. It's one of those classes that simply doesn't grab me. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Aewrik
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2007 : 20:15:42
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Depends on which level, of course.
How many widely known wizards are there for each known cleric? |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 11:57:44
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| Fireball - end of story (and end of encounter) ;) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 13:38:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Aewrik
Depends on which level, of course.
How many widely known wizards are there for each known cleric?
Well, one factor there is that wizards are "sexier", so to speak, and more visibly powerful. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 14:19:07
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Cleric. Hands down. They have a higher base attack bonus progression, more hit points, better saves, a decent spread of offensive and defensive spells, and the ability to cast them even while wearing heavy armour and carrying a shield. Furthermore, clerics gain versatility through the specialization process that requires them to chose two domains associated with their deity, while wizards lose out on a lot of power by specializing. To me, this is a no-brainer.
[edit] Oh, and they can convert the spells they've prepared into healing if things turn south. Dude, wizards wish they could be clerics. They wish that the fireball they saved through the entire dungeon because they didn't want to waste it on a bunch of weaklings could have been converted into a few points of much-needed healing. So yeah, clerics. Hands down.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
Edited by - Ugly is the new black on 25 Sep 2007 14:30:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 15:09:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugly is the new black
They wish that the fireball they saved through the entire dungeon because they didn't want to waste it on a bunch of weaklings could have been converted into a few points of much-needed healing.
They can do that... It's just that the spell in question, The Simbul's Synostodweomer, isn't widely known beyond the Seven Sisters. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sirreus
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 19:00:24
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clerics rule
all clerics are emmissaries of Gods (real ones) and therefore have a much more intensive role in the world at large, depending on the diety.
wizards are willful and self involved
so do yourselves a favor and roll up a priest right now 
God is dead, but it's ok
man is enough. - ??? |
"The measure of an undisciplined mind, is that the intellect allows emotion to challenge the observed truth" Richard Baker |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2007 : 19:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sirreus
all clerics are emmissaries of Gods (real ones) and therefore have a much more intensive role in the world at large, depending on the diety.
wizards are willful and self involved
You're making overly broad generalizations on both sides. Some clerics never leave their temples, and many wizards do aid others -- especially among the Harpers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 06:18:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're making overly broad generalizations on both sides. Some clerics never leave their temples, and many wizards do aid others -- especially among the Harpers.
I agree. Members of both classes are capable profoundly impacting the world around them. Clerics can make manifest the will of a deity, but wizards are capable of bending or otherwise directly manipulating the raw energies of which our reality is constructed. So both classes can be extremely powerful.
The only real reason I lean toward the cleric as opposed to the wizard is because oftentimes in low-level adventures, wizards are useless. They have zero hit points, they can't wear armour, and their spells are entirely underpowered. Sure, I'll admit that they get better in leaps and bounds, but for the first 5 or so levels, they may as well not even be there. The cleric, on the other hand, can fall back on his armour class, hit points, and base attack bonus progression to pull him through these rough spots.
There are exceptions, of course. There are always exceptions. But this has been true throughout my experiences.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 06:45:11
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| thats at least partly a question of an mad enough Con and Dex stat and liberal boosting of spells ... my Envoker started being able to wipe the floor on same basis as everyone else around level 3 ... and went above all but the Bar/psyWar around levle 6/7 |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Shizknight
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 20:27:29
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| As was mentioned above this is truly a matter of opinion, because both have their roles. The wizard is the artillery and the cleric is the healer. My friend and I had a rather heated discussion about which was better. It all came down to spell selection. Because at higher level the touch spells ignore the clerics armor and if the wizard uses fly then the base attack of the cleric also means nothing. Looking at both spell lists each side had an answer for everything the other could throw at it. Each side even has its wish/miracle. The one thing that threw the battle to the side of the wizard in the end was the one spell that the cleric doesn't get...Time Stop. Without it no cleric can stand up to a wizard that is doing its job. Mind you it's an even battle until level 17 when he can get it though. |
My Character's Last Speech
Private: Sir, we are outnumbered 17 to 1. Shouldn't we retreat?
Yxer: Now why would I want to do that? The odds are in our favor.
Private: How is that sir?
Yxer: I'm an archwizard, thats why.
Private: (starts to walk away and mumbles under his breath) We are so dead.
Yxer: (Yells at the private) I heard that!
Yxer - Lvl 17 Wizard/ Lvl 2 Archmage
(Arrogant like all wizards, and wrongly confident in his power. Refusing to listen to his DM's subtle warnings.) |
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King Oscar
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2007 : 23:07:13
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3.0-3.5
Cleric spells often lack spell methods of valid transportation, & also suffer at long distances, because their offensive and defensive spells don't usually make it into the "Long" range catagory.
However, any Cleric CAN do these things if he makes use of the very large number of "Domains" Wizards has created in the many books.
Wizards however, cannot really ever obtain a means to heal themselves or others as the cleric can.
Thus the Cleric being capable of more, is then "more useful". |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 02:44:45
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| I don't think there's any way to answer such a question. It's as pointless as any other "X vs. Y" debate. And by the way, it's nothing new: I first saw a wizard vs. cleric debate years ago. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Sep 2007 02:44:59 |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 05:17:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't think there's any way to answer such a question. It's as pointless as any other "X vs. Y" debate. And by the way, it's nothing new: I first saw a wizard vs. cleric debate years ago.
the point of this type of question is to divine what type of people are on this forum. and by the way, i haven't been on this forum for that long. besides, there are new people joining everyday. if they didn't see the poll (as i didn't) where does that leave them? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 11:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't think there's any way to answer such a question. It's as pointless as any other "X vs. Y" debate. And by the way, it's nothing new: I first saw a wizard vs. cleric debate years ago.
the point of this type of question is to divine what type of people are on this forum. and by the way, i haven't been on this forum for that long. besides, there are new people joining everyday. if they didn't see the poll (as i didn't) where does that leave them?
I am not trying to be smart here or anything, just curious; how will you find out what kind of people are on this forum by seeing if they choose clerics or wizards? |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 12:31:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't think there's any way to answer such a question. It's as pointless as any other "X vs. Y" debate. And by the way, it's nothing new: I first saw a wizard vs. cleric debate years ago.
the point of this type of question is to divine what type of people are on this forum. and by the way, i haven't been on this forum for that long. besides, there are new people joining everyday. if they didn't see the poll (as i didn't) where does that leave them?
I am not trying to be smart here or anything, just curious; how will you find out what kind of people are on this forum by seeing if they choose clerics or wizards?
how 'bout the devout v. the scholors
people who are frawn towards the divine may favor it in as C.s lewis put it "second reality" |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 15:48:57
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quote:
Originally posted by aravine
how 'bout the devout v. the scholors
people who are frawn towards the divine may favor it in as C.s lewis put it "second reality"
OK. Then I would just like to add that, despite the cleric answer I gave I am more of a scholarly nature than devout in an organized sense. I have a feeling that I and C.S. Lewis would have quite a few things to call each other, but these would not be suitable to post here at the keep  . |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 16:27:13
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quote:
Originally posted by aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't think there's any way to answer such a question. It's as pointless as any other "X vs. Y" debate. And by the way, it's nothing new: I first saw a wizard vs. cleric debate years ago.
the point of this type of question is to divine what type of people are on this forum. and by the way, i haven't been on this forum for that long. besides, there are new people joining everyday. if they didn't see the poll (as i didn't) where does that leave them?
I am not trying to be smart here or anything, just curious; how will you find out what kind of people are on this forum by seeing if they choose clerics or wizards?
how 'bout the devout v. the scholors
people who are frawn towards the divine may favor it in as C.s lewis put it "second reality"
I don't think character class choice, particularly when limited to two options, is any kind of accurate way to determine aspects of a person's personality. People have different reasons for choosing the characters they play, and these choices sometimes come down to nothing more than a whim or a random choice.
Hell, one of my all-time fave characters was created when I looked at an odd set of stats I'd just rolled up, asked aloud "What the hell can I do with these numbers?" and then had the DM reply "You could play a minotaur..." And one of his defining character traits was a love of beer. This came about because I rolled very well for starting gold, but then couldn't spend it on armor (his natural AC was already pretty good, better than most of the armor I could afford) or a mount (try putting a 500 pound character on a regular horse). So I flipped thru Aurora's, and went crazy when I got to the beer section. Another of that character's defining characteristics was his preference for being extremely straightforward, preferring brute force and having no subtlety at all -- because he had a 19 strength, which was awesome in 2E. With that kind of strength, I figured that would be a natural inclination.
I played a wild mage once because I loved the chaotic aspect of it (I still do, and I don't think any 3E version accurately captures the feel of the 2E version). I played a cleric once because I decided it was finally time to try the class I had been avoiding, and I finally had a decent concept in mind.
So... All in all, I can't see how a single "A or B" choice for a game would give any kind of feel for a player's personality. And though I prefer some classes, I'm willing to try anything I have a good concept in mind for. One day that might be a cleric, the next it may be a wizard. That's why I've not voted in any of your polls. And, despite a decently sized active membership, I'm not seeing a tremendous amount of votes on any of them -- so I think I'm not alone in the way I think. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 00:54:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think character class choice, particularly when limited to two options, is any kind of accurate way to determine aspects of a person's personality.
I agree. Number one, a person can be both devout and scholarly. Number two, the classes people like have nothing to do with their personalities. I love the cleric class, but I am not religious in real life. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 01:18:59
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| Well, as of now, Wizards can get vastly more powerful. However, the in between is all about clerics. |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 01:35:12
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The only way I could see this poll telling you anything about personalities is through the actual debate and each response or lack there of.
I also have to agree that no single poll could sum up a person's preferences or personality. When I RP my choices are usually based on the other members of the group, the stats I roll, or whether I feel like venting at the moment. Quite often my choices are the complete opposite of who I am or would even want to be (it stretches the imagination and makes me grow as a person  ).
I have never played either a cleric or a wizard, but I would think this too would depend on the stats and the makeup of the party. Also how "happy" the cleric's god is with him and whether he felt like granting his spells. It would also depend on what was needed during the game. I don't think you can just flat out say one is better than the other. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 02:45:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think character class choice, particularly when limited to two options, is any kind of accurate way to determine aspects of a person's personality.
I agree. Number one, a person can be both devout and scholarly. Number two, the classes people like have nothing to do with their personalities. I love the cleric class, but I am not religious in real life.
And I go the other way -- I consider myself religious, but I avoid playing clerics. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 17:03:54
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| i've got a better way to put this. if you could only have one of these classes in your party, which one would you rather have? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 17:20:14
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| My answer would still be the cleric, especially with the 2ed. Tome of Magic spells. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 17:12:02
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my vote goes to cleric.
you can survive without a wizard. you cannot survive without a primary healer |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2007 : 18:06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by aravine
my vote goes to cleric.
you can survive without a wizard. you cannot survive without a primary healer
Sure you can -- if you have the ability to either ignore enemy attacks, or if you can wipe out enemies before they hit you. A powerful wizard, with the right spells and magical items, can give you those abilities. And all the healing in the world won't help you if you can't otherwise get past magical traps or barriers.
Part of the whole point of D&D is that goals are accomplished by a group. The classes are complementary: each class has a role, and a properly balanced party will include all of those classes, to deal with all possibilities. So it's all moot to discuss which class is better. They all have their role, and all are needed in a balanced party. It's back to the whole apples and oranges thing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2007 : 17:27:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by aravine
my vote goes to cleric.
you can survive without a wizard. you cannot survive without a primary healer
Sure you can -- if you have the ability to either ignore enemy attacks, or if you can wipe out enemies before they hit you. A powerful wizard, with the right spells and magical items, can give you those abilities. And all the healing in the world won't help you if you can't otherwise get past magical traps or barriers.
Part of the whole point of D&D is that goals are accomplished by a group. The classes are complementary: each class has a role, and a properly balanced party will include all of those classes, to deal with all possibilities. So it's all moot to discuss which class is better. They all have their role, and all are needed in a balanced party. It's back to the whole apples and oranges thing.
assuming you are low level. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Topic |
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clerics v. wizards
