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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 22:52:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Aewrik
Heh... perhaps it should lose the D20-system?
I would like to see a FR-based RPG, but even if we all "pray" for it, it won't happen. We can just hope that 4E will be a better game to get the FR feel than 3E was. (I'm not talking about the FR changes for 4E like gods dying here) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 00:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Aewrik
Heh... perhaps it should lose the D20-system?
I don't think there is a problem with the system. It's the way some WotC people have decided to apply it to the setting, like the attitude that anything that can be encountered has to be fully statted for combat. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Aewrik
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 00:37:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I would like to see a FR-based RPG, but even if we all "pray" for it, it won't happen. We can just hope that 4E will be a better game to get the FR feel than 3E was. (I'm not talking about the FR changes for 4E like gods dying here)
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think there is a problem with the system. It's the way some WotC people have decided to apply it to the setting, like the attitude that anything that can be encountered has to be fully statted for combat.
Yeah, I know :q
I agree, it's really fun to play in. Overall, it's more cool than AD&D (since there are soooo many character options, even though some are, uh... unnecessary in the way that they're just filling out the book), but... for the creative DM, it's a real torture chamber, for the reason you give, Wooly.
Because of the "game balance" , I just can't give out xp offhandedly, since the experience points must feel motivated for the game to remain D&D. In AD&D, there is no monster advancement (from what I've seen), and there is a set amount of xp given for each monster. There is no need to include the stats in the adventure, unless you want to make the monster special. Etc, etc.
Anyone who has included a major encounter (with adjusted monsters) in a 3rd ed. adventure knows what I'm getting at. :) |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 01:43:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The problem is when rule changes affect the lore -- like the ToT covered the sudden loss of all members of the assassin class.
I never fully understood why they removed the assassin class. ?
the theory was anyone could be an assassin. That is, assassins were hired killers. fighters, rogues, mages, evil priests could all kill for cash so why make a class on it. Then in 3e instead of resurrecting the idea they made it a PrC that for some stupid reason had spells. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 04:08:52
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The problem is when rule changes affect the lore -- like the ToT covered the sudden loss of all members of the assassin class.
I never fully understood why they removed the assassin class. ?
the theory was anyone could be an assassin. That is, assassins were hired killers. fighters, rogues, mages, evil priests could all kill for cash so why make a class on it. Then in 3e instead of resurrecting the idea they made it a PrC that for some stupid reason had spells.
I agree...I never understood the spells...I never thought of Artemis as using magic! Even before him, assassins could make USE of magical items...but were not casters. I hope any future Prestige Class or actual Character Class Assassin will be more like a true assassin instead of an arcane caster. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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realcrowjoe
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 15:33:32
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Magic shops. Probably the worst idea in a long series of bad ideas foisted upon the Realms in the d20 era. Yes, the Realms as we know and love them are a high magic setting, but there's a line that was crossed with the whole MagicMart thing. As someone said a while back on one of the mailing lists, those of us who grew up on computer games are used to the notion of waltzing into a store and buying a holy avenger +10 for 1 million gp because we can and unfortunately I think what I like to call Neverwinter Nights/WoW mentality has seeped into a lot of the design decisions.
Monty Haul is the new black. 
[/quote]
I agree completely. I've never liked the idea of magic shops. One of the few things that just grates to my core, whether I'm DM or PC.
Think about it from the Thief's point of view rob the magic shop or rob the dungeon, depending on what dungeon it is, you might be easier robbing the dungeon.
Then if you consider the mindset of merchant, it goes back to the 1e days of orcs guarding the chest that has a ring of regeneration, ring of invisibility and +10 sword of insta-death that they never use. I mean some of the magic items, make the idea of making it to sell instead of making it for myself a little tough to fathom, imho |
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sirreus
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 17:00:30
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i don't mind the magic shops, themselves; but i reference the population and assets before allowing any item into a particular town or city. the red wizards' penchant for mercantilism as of late supports the idea of minor magic shops, but again only metro areas have the 'major' items.
There's nothing common
about sense - ??? |
"The measure of an undisciplined mind, is that the intellect allows emotion to challenge the observed truth" Richard Baker |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 01:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And for the record, I'll take it on the chin for starting the whole primrose-laden path of non-Mystran Chosen with Jeryth Phaulkon in CITY OF SPLENDORS. Mea culpa. If I'd realized the can of worms I was opening there, I'd have never done it.
So, it was you!
Just kidding. But I really respect how you just came out and said that. I know there are people who like the idea of non-Mystran Chosen, but I'm not one of them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 01:34:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Steven
who likens the ancient comings of spelljammers as his tip of the hat to Erik von Daniken and H.P. Lovecraft
I have to admit, I like Spelljammer because it makes me think of Star Wars--the theme music, spaceships, goofy characters. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 02:59:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And for the record, I'll take it on the chin for starting the whole primrose-laden path of non-Mystran Chosen with Jeryth Phaulkon in CITY OF SPLENDORS. Mea culpa. If I'd realized the can of worms I was opening there, I'd have never done it.
So, it was you!
Just kidding. But I really respect how you just came out and said that. I know there are people who like the idea of non-Mystran Chosen, but I'm not one of them.
My problems with non-Mystran Chosen are threefold, and I don't think it's right to blame Steven for the spread of these non-Mystran Chosen.
1) Mystra's Chosen have a specific purpose in the setting. They don't just serve Mystra, they serve the Realms at large. While all Chosen, Mystran or no, serve the interests of their deity, Mystra is one of the only deities who has truly global interests. She has, as I see it, the most reason to have semi-divine servants. I don't see that a lot of other deities have a need for this.
2) The term "Chosen" is over-used. Mystra's Chosen carry part of her divine essense. This makes them something really quite extraordinary. Most non-Mystran Chosen just have a nifty ability or two, and that's it. They often aren't even as powerful as a moderately skilled cleric of their deity. So why do they bear a title that implies divine status and remarkable power? If they were called "Champions" or "God-touched" or anything else, I wouldn't be bothered by it.
3) The whole "Chosen" arms race. All Steven did was open the door. I don't think anyone anticipated that later designers would get on a kick of cranking out Chosen for other deities, regardless of whether or not it seemed logical.
Steven, it is admirable that you are standing up to take credit for this mess. However, you didn't create the mess. You have a love and an understanding for the setting that a lot of subsequent designers have not had (and that's not a knock on anyone). It's not your fault that other people took your idea the wrong way. I think the fault lies most with the lack of the traffic cop position -- there was no one to tell these folks that there were better ways to execute their ideas. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 03:36:44
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I trully understand what Wooly says.
I mean, I donīt have any problem with Shintala Deepcrest described as "Warden of the Green Powers", or "Emerald Defender of Nature"... it will stay much better than "Chosen of (insert god name here).
The same goes to, by example, the Rotting Man. If he was named as "Emissary of Plague", "Mouth of Talona", or something like this, I think that the character will become much more apealling.
Chosen of Moradin, the dwarf that re-allocate the Rotting Man to Mussum, in the Vilhon Reach. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 03:38:48
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As I've said many times... I never lump Mystra's Chosen together with the rest of the now more apparent Chosen of deities in the 3e FR.
Part of why Mystra's Chosen are unique is because of their role. They balance out Mystra, and store some of her power in case it's needed. They're kind of like the "loyal opposition" -- they are loyal to Mystra, but they are not controlled by her, and with them having some of her power, they can act in opposition to her if she gets out of control. They are also assistants of a sort; they work to further the spread of magic, but in a pinch, they can also help to maintain the Weave. That is why Mystra has Chosen. That is why hers are special. Most of the other Chosen of FR deities, or rather... "Divine Champions" as I call them, are but pale shadows.
"Divine Champion" would work well enough for any. Or any other title of specialty that doesn't reflect the connection Mystra's own Chosen have with their deity. There's virtually no basis for the connection between the roles of the other "Chosen" of the various deities and Mystra's Chosen -- so the titles should be different. To even suggest the possibility that the Divine Champions of the other deities reflect a little of what Mystra's Chosen are, takes away the charm of the Chosen of Mystra characters and makes their entire position in the Realms seem "usual."
Ultimately though, it comes directly back to the fact that there is no exact or consistent definition of what the 'Chosen' are. We look to the Realmslore and interprete Mystra's actions as merely investing select followers with certain specialised duties/roles and specific powers that are apparently crucial to the function of her faith. There are lots of different ways a god can invest a mortal follower with power, which we could arbitrarily divide into, from lesser to greater:-
- 1. priests;
- 2. things like Mystra's spellstaves;
- 3. the Chosen of Bane or Deneir, Seraph of Lies, or the Magister;
- 4. Mystra's Chosen, which are a unique case.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Oct 2007 04:28:45 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 03:41:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
And for the record, I'll take it on the chin for starting the whole primrose-laden path of non-Mystran Chosen with Jeryth Phaulkon in CITY OF SPLENDORS. Mea culpa. If I'd realized the can of worms I was opening there, I'd have never done it.
Steven, it is admirable that you are standing up to take credit for this mess. However, you didn't create the mess. You have a love and an understanding for the setting that a lot of subsequent designers have not had (and that's not a knock on anyone). It's not your fault that other people took your idea the wrong way. I think the fault lies most with the lack of the traffic cop position -- there was no one to tell these folks that there were better ways to execute their ideas.
I'm inclined to agree.
Steven, while I appreciate your wisdom in admitting this, it is hardly necessary. One need only look over the way you originally introduced Jeryth as a Chosen, to see that it was written in a fashion that clearly illustrates both a specific purpose and a necessity, of sorts. It wasn't entirely random, and reads as a development of previously existing Realmslore -- which is what I've always loved about your work.
The problem I have with the introduction of the other Chosen -- exists mainly in the way they've been "justified," for lack of a better term. Mostly, they haven't all been brought into the Realmslore in a way that follows the path you originally set down with Jeryth. So you really can't hold yourself completely responsible for the subsequent creation of Chosen selected by other deities in the Realms. Other writers/developers have followed their own methods when introducing their own Chosen-types for other deities. Some of which, for me at least, seem entirely random, or unsuitably supported by existing Realmslore.
I've no wish to lay unconstructive criticism at the feet of any particular designer or writer -- ultimately, their choices for introducing new Chosen are their own. I simply feel that, had a lesser number of new Chosen been introduced slowly into the Realmslore, each following the method Steven attempted with Jeryth, then perhaps I, and those who feel that the Realms currently has too many Chosen, wouldn't have so much of an issue with them. They would continue to remain special and wholly consistent with existing Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Oct 2007 04:29:37 |
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What should the setting lose?
