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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 15:55:48
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I'm not as sure... In the real world, it is known that some aspects of a person's personality are determined by inherited traits. While it's uncertain exactly how influential "nature" is, as opposed to "nurture", it's pretty much unanimous that it is a factor.
So, I don't see a problem with at least a general disposition towards self-centered and selfish behavior. Maybe not purely evil babies, but at the least, babies who wouldn't need much encouragement to grow into evil gits.
Besides, having at least a tendency towards a specific alignment at birth better explains how such a society could develop. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 18:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not as sure... In the real world, it is known that some aspects of a person's personality are determined by inherited traits. While it's uncertain exactly how influential "nature" is, as opposed to "nurture", it's pretty much unanimous that it is a factor.
So, I don't see a problem with at least a general disposition towards self-centered and selfish behavior. Maybe not purely evil babies, but at the least, babies who wouldn't need much encouragement to grow into evil gits.
Besides, having at least a tendency towards a specific alignment at birth better explains how such a society could develop.
Unfortunately I think this is truer to real life. I mean you read about these 4 and 5 year olds(who should still be innocent) torturing and abusing animals and you know they did not learn from parents. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 18:56:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not as sure... In the real world, it is known that some aspects of a person's personality are determined by inherited traits. While it's uncertain exactly how influential "nature" is, as opposed to "nurture", it's pretty much unanimous that it is a factor.
So, I don't see a problem with at least a general disposition towards self-centered and selfish behavior. Maybe not purely evil babies, but at the least, babies who wouldn't need much encouragement to grow into evil gits.
Besides, having at least a tendency towards a specific alignment at birth better explains how such a society could develop.
Unfortunately I think this is truer to real life. I mean you read about these 4 and 5 year olds(who should still be innocent) torturing and abusing animals and you know they did not learn from parents.
True, but the parents might as well have taught them. They allow their kids to be influenced by cartoons like Beavis and Butthead or South Park. Regardless, the parents are to be blamed. Its their neglect that causes these things to happen. Many parents can deny it, but they would be lying. Lets take this as an example; when Beavis and Butthead was really popular (I was in Portland, Oregon at the time), the house next door to my Aunt and Uncle was set ablaze because the parents' kids set fire to the house after watching Beavis and Butthead.
Are these kids innocent, yes. Do they truly know the concept of right and wrong, not at that age. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
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Kheris
Seeker
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 19:49:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not as sure... In the real world, it is known that some aspects of a person's personality are determined by inherited traits. While it's uncertain exactly how influential "nature" is, as opposed to "nurture", it's pretty much unanimous that it is a factor.
So, I don't see a problem with at least a general disposition towards self-centered and selfish behavior. Maybe not purely evil babies, but at the least, babies who wouldn't need much encouragement to grow into evil gits.
Besides, having at least a tendency towards a specific alignment at birth better explains how such a society could develop.
Unfortunately I think this is truer to real life. I mean you read about these 4 and 5 year olds(who should still be innocent) torturing and abusing animals and you know they did not learn from parents.
True, but the parents might as well have taught them. They allow their kids to be influenced by cartoons like Beavis and Butthead or South Park. Regardless, the parents are to be blamed. Its their neglect that causes these things to happen. Many parents can deny it, but they would be lying. Lets take this as an example; when Beavis and Butthead was really popular (I was in Portland, Oregon at the time), the house next door to my Aunt and Uncle was set ablaze because the parents' kids set fire to the house after watching Beavis and Butthead.
Are these kids innocent, yes. Do they truly know the concept of right and wrong, not at that age.
I have to admit, I really like the combination of tendency and culture creating evil, or at best, neutral, drow. In fact, there are plenty of real-life human examples of 'nurture' (or the lack thereof) causing aberrant - dare I say, evil - behavior in certain people. Mind you, not everyone who's treated like this snaps, so I'm seeing a combination of nature and nurture here.
Examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer#Psychology_and_development
So we have the drow, a magic-touched race, closely tied to an evil goddess, in an inhospitable environment... With parents that probably do things so abusive that most people who watched them would wretch.
Hey, Match, I want you to meet my friend Powderkeg...  |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 19:39:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kheris
I have to admit, I really like the combination of tendency and culture creating evil, or at best, neutral, drow. In fact, there are plenty of real-life human examples of 'nurture' (or the lack thereof) causing aberrant - dare I say, evil - behavior in certain people. Mind you, not everyone who's treated like this snaps, so I'm seeing a combination of nature and nurture here.
I agree with the above statement and would like to add that most of the source material concerning drow childhood centers on the noble houses, leaving out the commoners.
In the fiction, there is a distinct difference in attitude between males of noble houses and males with lower social standing. Ryld Argith, Valas Hune and Zaknafein Do'Urden were all born of commoner parents and showed a tendency towards practicality rather than wanton evil. Someone has something they want and they try to cut a deal rather than take it by overt force. Zak is probably a bad example since there really isn't anything about his early life and he ended up stuck in the house system anyway. As a small side note, most official sources list all of them as some varient of neutral.
By contrast, Pharuan Mizzym, Nimor Imphrazael, Dantrag Baenre and Gomph Baenre have the attitude of "You have something I want and I will do anything it takes to obain it." Kill, torture, scheme, lie, bluff and maybe the occaisional "merciful" act to reach their goal. And they enjoy it to a greater and lesser extent. All of them presumably grew up in an abusive noble House where they learned form thier authority figures that fun equalled someone else getting hurt in some way.
I'm leaving out the females because as far as I've read there aren't any stories about commoner females. If there's one out there, someone enlighten me. All this is probably a bit off topic, but I hope it made sense. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 22:11:41
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Problem here is that we have a monster race first and foremost. They were created to be mean and to be used in such a way. The society for them was created later on, most likely to suit the purpose and give them more background to explore - for the PC. So trying to gather how this all works by placing real world measure on it is bound for dead ends.
Much of what we know about the drow, i.e. those presented in novels and lore, is about a race dominated by a female clergy of an chaotic evil goddess. Ruthless, cunning, and mean. On a second look, this clergy, their kin and their houses usually only represent the drow nobility, which make up 5 to 10 % of drow society. They wield the power, they lead the fortunes of their race and are behind much that happens. Does that make an average drow foot-soldier equally evil? Whether that soldier is a male or female? Who can tell?
About 80% we get fed is a stereotype that has been there from the first edition.
BTW, the Houses' and matrons'description given in the Menzoberranzan box - regarding personalities and goals - went a long way putting that "utterly chaotic evil" stuff to rest. Only for later authors and designers to pick it up again soon after. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 01:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Problem here is that we have a monster race first and foremost. They were created to be mean and to be used in such a way. The society for them was created later on, most likely to suit the purpose and give them more background to explore - for the PC. So trying to gather how this all works by placing real world measure on it is bound for dead ends.
True. I am quite guilty of leading the PCs to believe that they might encounter "evil" drow, but have the drow in question be neutral... and not show up on the "detect evil" radar  I found that when dealing with intelligent, sophisticated monster races, like drow, humans fey, merfolk and what not, having some sort of idea on how the society works for the common drow warrior level 4 made the encounter more interesting. On the other hand, I never wrote straight dungeon crawls, never tolerated power gamers and had around three or four planned ways for encounters to turn out, so I'm probably a bit biased in favor of fluff.
quote:
Much of what we know about the drow, i.e. those presented in novels and lore, is about a race dominated by a female clergy of an chaotic evil goddess. Ruthless, cunning, and mean. On a second look, this clergy, their kin and their houses usually only represent the drow nobility, which make up 5 to 10 % of drow society. They wield the power, they lead the fortunes of their race and are behind much that happens. Does that make an average drow foot-soldier equally evil? Whether that soldier is a male or female? Who can tell?
About 80% we get fed is a stereotype that has been there from the first edition.
BTW, the Houses' and matrons'description given in the Menzoberranzan box - regarding personalities and goals - went a long way putting that "utterly chaotic evil" stuff to rest. Only for later authors and designers to pick it up again soon after.
It's a problem with "top down" monster society design. I have more of a "bottom up" mindset. Unfortunently, I've never found a copy of the sourcebooks you mention and so will take your word on it. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Blah99
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 05:03:03
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| So Liriel was a bit like Drizzt and thought most of the things the Drow do are immoral? Is it from her mother sheltering her until she was 5? Even Vierna had a tiny bit of sympathy in her eyes when she was about to sacrifice Zaknafein. And when she died Lloth's faith left her and she was back to her good form before she died as Drizzt notes in The Legacy. But the one I'm really curious about is Liriel and what makes her 'good' or 'not evil'? |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 06:40:41
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Well... I wouldn't go so far as to say Liriel Baenre was "good" per se, just not evil. She had a very odd childhood, having been raised by her father's family and not her mother's and trained as a wizard rather than a cleric (as would be normal for a noble born female drow).
To me she came off as happy-go-lucky and "Wow this looks interesting and shiny I'm going to go after it!" (at least in her first book) rather than "This society is wrong and I can't stand living here." She seems more of an opprotunistic adventurer that doesn't break ties unless there is an active, pressing need for it. And no I have not read Windwalker and so I have no idea if this assessment is acurate or not but it seemed that human morals were slowly rubbing off on her as a side effect of prolonged interaction with humans and a burning desire to learn things, anything. She's an opprotunistic optimist |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 14:26:50
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I have to side with nurture. I work with children and in pretty much every case where the child has problems it can be traced back to what the parents did or did not do.
I am willing to admit that there is a small percent of the population that may be born psychotic, but a very small percent. Yes, children inherit some of thier personality from their parents, but then their environment determines what happens to those tendancies.
One child's need for perfection leads them to good grades, being good at sports, and volunteering in the community.
While that same drive for perfection leads another to control every aspect of their lives right down to manipulating or harming others to get things the way they want.
They learn from the example set by parents and others they see.
Now as for Liriel, I have to agree that she is an opportunist (aren't all drow), yet her time around humans makes her see the opportunity for more than just strife. I don't think the drow are all born to be evil, I think it is more of a cult mentality where they just become used to certain things being acceptable, even expected. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 09:24:53
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AFAIK Liriel was always intended to be that rascal type of chaotic neutral overly-curious character. Her main tutor wasn't exactly downright evil either, even though he managed to create that rod of lichcraft. It is surely true that beings are usually born neutral and society shapes them afterwards.
On the drow and their alignment, Quenthel Baenre had an interesting paragraph in WotSQ I, p. 243:
quote:
The traitor elves of the World Above professed to hate evil. In reality, Quenthel thought, they feared what they didn't understand. Thanks to the tutelage of Lolth, the drow did, and having understood it, they embraced it.
For evil, like chaos, was one of the fundamental forces of Creation, manifest in both the macrocosm of the wide world and the microcosm of the individual soul. As chaos gave rise to possibility and imagination, so evil engendered strength and will. It made sentient beings aspire to wealth and power. It enabled them to subjugate, kill , rob, and deceive. It allowed them to do whatever was required to better themselves with never a crippling flicker of remorse.
Thus, evil was responsible for the existence of civilization and for every great deed any hero had ever performed. Without it, the people of the world would live like animals. It was amazing that so many races, blinded by false religion and philosophies, had lost sight of this self-evident truth. In contrast, the dark elves had based a society on it, and that was one of the points of superiority that served them to exalt them above all other races.
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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The Drow *possible spoilers*
