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saylor_n
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 20:13:16
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I really need the opinion of an older, preferably very experienced, DM. I am currently in a very high level (25th-30th) 2E campaign which features a pit fiend as the main bad guy. According to the monster description in the Outer Planes Compendium, a pit fiend can gate in one greater or two lesser baatezu with 100% chance of success. No problems so far. The two Cornugons that were gated in have a 50% chance to gate in 2-12 barbazu. They in turn can gate in Abishai, who can also gate in more creatures. It's kind of hard to kill these creatures off faster than they can be gated in. If my DM delays entering combat I can have hundreds of baatezu floating around the country side in a few turns and half the nine hells in my back yard by morning! Which is exactly what my DM keeps doing to our group. Are there specific rules for gating in other creatures that we (our DM and I) are missing or is he just being abusive of the rules? He is following the rule that one creature can't gate in another on a round of combat in which the creature is struck but COME ON! We keep starting with one creature and end up dying at the hands of hundreds in less than a turn. What gives?
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There's nothing like a 20'diameter ball of living acid coming at you at 100MPH. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 22:23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by saylor_n
I really need the opinion of an older, preferably very experienced, DM. I am currently in a very high level (25th-30th) 2E campaign which features a pit fiend as the main bad guy. According to the monster description in the Outer Planes Compendium, a pit fiend can gate in one greater or two lesser baatezu with 100% chance of success. [...] What gives?
It's official in 3.x but I remember that we used it also in 2E : summoned devils/demons can't use their summon abilities.
However, 2E rules aren't really "balanced", DM fiat must be applied in many circumstances, so if you have a bad DM... good luck  |
Edited by - Skeptic on 16 Sep 2007 22:25:34 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 22:28:48
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| They are balanced, but to a different concept and method of 'game balance' than in 3E. The idea of 'DM fiat' -- where did that term originate? -- is a nonsense, presupposing that the DM making decisions outside rules is some aberration, rather than her basic role. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 22:38:27
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"Pit Fiends are able to preform any of the following at will, once per turn or melee round, as applicable: ... or gate in 1-3 barbed devils (60%) or another pit fiend (70% chance of success)."
There appears no limit to number that might be gated in for combat. Opps that was 1st.
"They may always gate in two lesser or one greater baatezu with a 100% chance of success, performing this action once per round."
Still looks like a problem.
"The casting of a gate spell has two effects. First, it causes an interdimensional connection between the plane of existence the wizard is on and the plane on which dwells a specific being of great power; thus, the being is able to merely step through the gate or portal from its plane to that of the caster. Second, the utterance of the spell attracts the attention of the sought-after dweller on the other plane. When casting the spell, the wizard must name the entity he desires to use the gate and come to the wizard's aid. There is a 100% certainty that something steps through the gate. Unless the DM has some facts prepared regarding the minions serving the being called forth by the gate spell, the being itself comes.
If the matter is trifling, the being might leave, inflict an appropriate penalty on the wizard, or attack the wizard. If the matter is of middling importance, the being can take some positive action to set matters right, then demand appropriate repayment. If the matter is urgent, the being can act accordingly and ask whatever is its wont thereafter, if appropriate. The actions of the being that comes through depend on many factors, including the alignments of the wizard and the deity, the nature of his companions, and who or what opposes or threatens the wizard. Such beings generally avoid direct conflict with their equals or betters. The being gated in will either return immediately (very unlikely) or remain to take action. Casting this spell ages the wizard five years."
This might help, not that Devils die of old age, but summoned Devils will want to be paid if the matter is important enough that it does not attack its summonor for interupting whatever it was doing. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 22:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
It's official in 3.x but I remember that we used it also in 2E : summoned devils/demons can't use their summon abilities.
However, 2E rules aren't really "balanced", DM fiat must be applied in many circumstances, so if you have a bad DM... good luck
I could not find the Summoned can not summon in core Rule 2nd, however the BBEG can summon once a round without the others arriving doing summoning and the number clearly will be many. How many will stay though appears on the reason they were called and how good the pay is. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 23:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
They are balanced, but to a different concept and method of 'game balance' than in 3E. The idea of 'DM fiat' -- where did that term originate? -- is a nonsense, presupposing that the DM making decisions outside rules is some aberration, rather than her basic role.
A game that relies a lot on DM making decisions* outside rules (including "abstract" ones) is not a good game IHMO.
However, the path D&D 3.x followed to do it is not the one I prefer at all.
Hmm, can you explain me what kind of balance was used in 2E design ?
* Decisions that concern PC vs NPC interactions, not the current weather, etc. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 16 Sep 2007 23:07:39 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 23:29:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
A game that relies a lot on DM making decisions* outside rules (including "abstract" ones) is not a good game IHMO.
One such game is D&D, as published (at least until up to 3E), and as run by, for instance, Gary Gygax or Ed Greenwood.quote:
Hmm, can you explain me what kind of balance was used in 2E design ?
3E 'balance' is combat parity between characters and monster encounters of particular levels and ELs. 1E balance is a larger concept of importance in play, not as an isolated local rules system, over the longer term (thus some characters powerful at first level, others faster to advance, etc.), including the use of non-rules factors such as rarity which 3E ruled out (in Sean Reynolds's famous myopic term, as 'bad game design'). I could go on about Gary's 1E design philosophy; I couldn't about David Cook's 2E philosophy because it's incoherent, though it draws a lot on the system it's derived from. Then there's the use of the rules assumed by Ed's 2E writings.
I think your comment about a bad DM is perfectly fair, but I wouldn't play in such a campaign no matter what the rules were. My point is that 'game balance' is an array of different ideas and approaches, not just the one formulated for the 2000 version of D&D. |
Edited by - Faraer on 16 Sep 2007 23:49:40 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 23:55:17
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IMHO, in a RPG there is only one kind of important balance, the "spot-light" one.
1E/2E didn't help it. 3E did it in a good way for D&D but not for any RPG. D&D is full of combat, giving equal "combat power" to each class is likely to give an equal share of the spot-light. (I know it doesn't always work and please, don't tell me : I play D&D and I don't do combat often. Make yourself a favor and try another RPG !)
EGG/Ed's play group may be very functional, but that doesn't say that the system they use would work for the average group of DM/players. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 17 Sep 2007 00:02:16 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 23:58:16
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[rephrased]
I know that 1E and 2E do help for me and lots of other people. I don't know what the average group is, and can't see how we can generalize to it. |
Edited by - Faraer on 17 Sep 2007 00:08:31 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 00:28:27
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*taps screen lightly*
This scroll is about 2nd Edition Pit Fiend and a request for rules or opinions as to if a DM is ignoring a rule or abusing a rule. This is not a scroll about the merits of 2nd vs, 3rd Edition.
In my opinion and a quick review of 2nd rules the DM is taking advantage of gating at will once per round is posible within the rule set, that the DM is abusing the rules if the gated in Devils are not given incentive to stay long. While I can picture a Pit Fiend inviting a few friends to a Paladin Roast and they willing to go along with the idea as enough reward, I can not picture gating in 10 Pit Fiends for one Paladin, let along more. Oh lessers might be gated in and fight because of fear of a greater, but only the lessors can not gate away.
I believe the DM errs if gating in too many.
Edit: Clearing up two keyboard Errors, OKA (Otherwise Known As) typos. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 17 Sep 2007 02:20:52 |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 01:50:03
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quote:
I believe the DM errs if gating in too many.
I agree. However, this is a fine example of a situation that I try to avoid as a DM. When players know too much about their enemies (either from hard-fought experience or from the books at Borders), it's time to either scrap those opponents or give them some new abilities.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 02:39:53
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I think Vic's idea of using a spell like Forbiddance is a good one. The spell is a 6th level priest spell, in 2E.
And I don't see anything that supports the idea that a demon summoned by a demon could summon its own demons. In fact, it goes against both common sense and everything we've seen about summoned demons. If it could happen, then the Prime would have been overrun centuries ago, the first time a major demon was summoned. Also, I can't think of a single canon example of such third generation summoning taking place. If I were a DM, I'd say that only first generation summoned entities could summon others. The first generation entity would either have made its own way to the Prime, or it was summoned. Either way, that enables it to get to the Prime. Anything it summons would be like an extension of the first summoning. But, since those second gen summoned entities weren't there in their own right, they can't pull others to the Prime.
As an alternative, flip the DM's trick back on himself: summon something from the Higher Planes that can also do its own summoning. If the DM lets it work for his guys, he'll have to let it work for you. And then, hopefully, the prospect of a Outer Plane war breaking out on the Prime will cause him to see the error of his ways.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 04:09:31
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the problem isnt mechanical IMO. I mean why should the DM abuse rules? he has the ultimate power after all, but this comes with the responsibilty (as we learned from spiderman_ of bringing a good story backed up by some action (well the opposite may occur when its a hack'n'slash).
I dont believe a good DM wants to make the PCs lives miserable, really. At least its not a good sportsmanship to do that by abusing rules. But think that: perhaps the DM have plans about all that summoned Devil horde? maybe he is preparing some sort of campaign involing war/crusades etc. or perhaps a prelude to an epic quest?
Sometimes a DM has to brea some rules for the sake of the game/campaign (this is tricky, he have to be carefull not to ruin it). Rules are here to balance the game and make it playable, not to restrict it.
However if you and the party are annoyed and believe that your DM is abusing the rules and he continue all that gate thing without reason (obvious or not) the best way to solve the problem is just talk to him.
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Edited by - Marquant Volker on 17 Sep 2007 04:19:43 |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 04:35:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Marquant Volker
I dont believe a good DM wants to make the PCs lives miserable, really. At least its not a good sportsmanship to do that by abusing rules. But think that: perhaps the DM have plans about all that summoned Devil horde? maybe he is preparing some sort of campaign involing war/crusades etc. or perhaps a prelude to an epic quest
Right. It's important to remember that you're not necessarily meant to win each and every fight. Sometimes, for the sake of a good story, the DM will put you in a position in which your opponent is simply too difficult to overcome. It's not something you should do every session, but sometimes it's good to pull the rug out from under a player's feet to see how he reacts.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 11:19:21
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I have not read all answers, so I might repeat what was said before.
Anyhow, I seem to recall from reading novels and sourcebooks, that a demon/devil gating in others of his kind is able to do so because of some kind of favor he can call upon. The called creature answers it only because it can repay some debts it owns to the one calling and it is somewhat 'free' to answer the call at all. It is a totally different thing than then a wizard calling a creature by summoning magics! Therefore, I use this ability in my game only very carefully. The creature calling in that favor would only do so if his mission/life or another thing of high importance would be at stake. You might want to think about this when using the gating ability.
Again, I am not certain if this is canon or any set rule or such...... could be just a 'house rule' after all. Hope it still helps a bit.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 17 Sep 2007 11:21:56 |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 16:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugly is the new black
it's good to pull the rug out from under a player's feet to see how he reacts.
Very nice stated, i totally agree
Erdgusch i find your approach very interesting, in my opinion it fits so good with the Devil's background all those favour and politics (even in a personal scale). Thanks for the post |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 22:39:39
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Tell your DM that you don't mind being challenged but you'd like something different. The Gate thing just got old. If he can't come up with something new and interesting hit the gamer classifieds.  You have to talk to your DM about what you do like and what you don't like. Communication is key. Rules help the game progress on a even basis, but it sounds like you might not trust your DM. This is a problem. Your DM should have some sort of reason for why this gate spree is happening. Without an explanation you have pretty dry combat situations with little in the way of role-playing.  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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sirreus
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 19:33:48
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i concur with the 'wandering mage' communication is key,however if the dm snuffs you without forethought or consideration; might be time for a new dm or intervention. i've had a dm who was a great story teller, but in his campaignes his story line was more important than our life expectancy and/or fun. we tried the intervention, using logic and compromise as our argument. long to short: not only does he not dm for us but he was so childish that he no longer attends our night at all. good riddance.
all hail the 3 c's: compassion, consideration, and compromise |
"The measure of an undisciplined mind, is that the intellect allows emotion to challenge the observed truth" Richard Baker |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 21:09:40
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| Concerning the three C's, agreed Sirreus! |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 06:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugly is the new black
Right. It's important to remember that you're not necessarily meant to win each and every fight. Sometimes, for the sake of a good story, the DM will put you in a position in which your opponent is simply too difficult to overcome. It's not something you should do every session, but sometimes it's good to pull the rug out from under a player's feet to see how he reacts.
It sounds good at first, but often ends badly because the "contract" between the players and the DM is not spelled explicitly. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 19 Sep 2007 06:57:09 |
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Ugly is the new black
Seeker
Australia
81 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 07:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
It sounds good at first, but often ends badly because the "contract" between the players and the DM is not spelled explicitly.
My group has always been a lot like Xysma's; when presented with a problem, they hack at it with their longswords until it's not a problem anymore. Lots of groups are like that. And so you're right, Skeptic, it can end badly, absolutely. Total player wipes aren't fun for anyone. And for that reason, it's best to avoid using those types of encounters unless the story and the situation really call for it. When used properly, however, I think that setting players up against unbeatable opponents (or unbeatable encounters in general) can actually add a lot to their gaming experience in the long run.
love,
nathan. |
As he knelt on the ground with his brothers around and the taste of his blood on his tongue,
His brothers knelt by him and prayed him a prayer, and he smiled and he laughed and he sung,
"Brothers, oh brothers, my days here are done, the Dornishman's taken my life,
But what does it matter? For all men must die, and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!" |
Edited by - Ugly is the new black on 19 Sep 2007 07:16:36 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2007 : 07:22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugly is the new black
And for that reason, it's best to avoid using those types of encounters unless the story and the situation really call for it. When used properly, however, I think that setting players up against unbeatable opponents (or unbeatable encounters in general) can actually add a lot to their gaming experience in the long run.
I don't have a problem with "unbeatable" encounter, I have a problem with DMs not making it clear enough to the players, letting them guess (sometime even blindly!) which encounters are to be fought and which are not.
A bad DM doesn't give any choice to the players, a fool DM dreams to give them an infinite number of choices, a good DM gives them an handful of meaningful ones. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 19 Sep 2007 07:26:06 |
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saylor_n
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 21:20:18
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| My many thanks to all that have commented, especially wooly. I sat my DM down in front of this page and made him read it all. The end result was the most childish statment I have heard in the 22 years I have been playing. A new campaign has begun featuring myself as the DM. Thanks again. |
There's nothing like a 20'diameter ball of living acid coming at you at 100MPH. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 21:43:19
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Heh, glad to help. I'm also glad to see that my ability to flip things over or put an evil spin on something has come in handy for someone else! 
What, pray tell, was his childish comment? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Haman
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 19:48:58
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Just one question, why is the DM looking at the pit fiend as if it's a simple mechanical device that just whirrs away doing it's thing? It's a living, breathing entity with it's own set of behaviors, not just an automoton that automatically uses whatever abilities it can.
Wouldn't there be a pride issue, having to call on other lesser demons for aid? Couldn't ALL of the gated lesser demons simply turn on him when your party is reduced to kibble, thus maybe not worth the chance of bring ing in such chaotic, power hungry beings? Couldn't some of the demons being summoned just ignore the call due to a past grudge with said pit fiend? Would the pit fiend even want to share the carnage and freedom with other lesser demons?
Just trying to put some of the realism in, which is kinda funny in a fantasy world, but you see where I'm going. Ignore the mechanics and look at all the other factors, the ones not written in the book. |
Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 15:45:38
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anti-imagic field!
and no yuor DM is not being abusive. sure it might not be fair, but you are high level |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2007 : 17:20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by aravine
anti-imagic field!
and no yuor DM is not being abusive. sure it might not be fair, but you are high level
A DM routinely putting players into combat that they cannot win, and doing so by creative misuse of the rules, isn't abusive? Remind me never to play in a campaign with you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2007 : 13:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by saylor_n
My many thanks to all that have commented, especially wooly. I sat my DM down in front of this page and made him read it all. The end result was the most childish statment I have heard in the 22 years I have been playing. A new campaign has begun featuring myself as the DM. Thanks again.
good luck!
p.s hope we don't hear from your old dm about the same subject! lol |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Abusive Dungeon Master?
