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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 02:50:25
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Unfortunately, I think I will have to give yet another negative review for Lisa Smedman's book's...
The book mostly details the assault on Kiaransalee's stronghold by a party composed of Ellistraeean followers (+ allies). Along the way tensions growing within Ellistraee's faith is brought up and matters of regarding the drow ancestry are discussed.
Although there is an incredible amount of lore and realm-shaking changes introduced within the span of this novel, I find the book suffers from a few significant flaws:
1) The bad guys are idiots and good guys always win.
This is a recurring theme of fairytales and many of the most boring adventure novels. Unfortunately, "Storm of the Dead" follows that route just as "Extinction" and "Sacrifice of the Widow" did. By the end of the first quarter of the novel, I already felt none of the important protagonists would die (thus the only suspense would be to see if the bad guys would survive).
Throughout the story, the "enemies" were mostly kept in the dark and the genius minds within the "protagonist" groups managed to catch them off-guard and win. I almost thought Lisa casted a feeblemind spell on Wendonai and Kiarasalee (no save-throws).
2) Old matters do not stay dead.
The history of the elves were relatively rich and interesting and would've stayed so if the WotC did not intend to bring it back to the "modern" FR time period. Part of the appeal of Aryvandaar and Miyeritar is that they are dead nations that were once out of the charts in terms of power. It will definitely create a lot of balancing and consistency issues if the authors start digging them out of their graves (not to mention bad taste).
Another matter is that the drow and the old empires represent very different things (to the readers at least). If the borders between them start to melt, well, it's going to taste weird... Have you ever roasted a chicken marinated with chocolate?
Finally, I hated what they did to Faerzness.
3) Redemption, redemption, redemption.
Redemption is an over-used element in the drow storyline. Drizzt has done it, Liriel has done it (well, in a way), Halliatra has attempted it, and now Lisa revisits the same boring theme on Cavatina. Although Lisa's not a bad writer, there isn't enough magic in Cavatina to make her as interesting and unforgetable as Drizzt and Liriel.
4) Bad genetics.
It is virtually impossible to keep a family's blood line purely of a certain race when sexual selection's not based on racial origins. Since the population of drow from Miyeritar are almost negligible compared to that of Illythiri, it's very difficult not to have the blood line of the two thoroughly mixed by the 50th generation or so (with the latter being predominant over the former).
Well, she can always try to explain it away by saying Miyeritarian's emit a different pheromone... but that would sound very dumb.
5) Poor choice of plot device.
It is simply unacceptable for any low-epic level mage circle to easily have access to a spell that kills a deity by erasing his/her name while Mystra sits idly around and lets god-killing spells to be casted. Now, what can stops the characters in the novel from doing the same on Lolth or all the gods in the Realms? Even though I am not a PnP player, my mind screams IMBA.
6) Misleading titles and descriptions.
So far, the Lady Penitent did very little in the trilogy. She's not the main character and has been completely overshadowed by Cavatina and all those (partially) 'redeemed' drow characters. Similarly, "Storm of the Dead" didn't really illustrate a storm created by the dead followers of Kiaransalee's undead horde. In the light of that, I think the following changes may be appropriate:
The Supremecy of Ellistraee Trilogy:
Book 1: Rise of Ellistraeans
"Hallistra Melarn has been a priestess of Lolth, a repentant follower of Ellistraee, and a would-be killer of gods, but now she is being set aside so that Cavatina and friends can do a smack down on the evil gods."
Book 2: Storm of Ellistraeans
"As the enemies of Ellistraee fall one by one to Cavatina's wrath, Ellistraee turns her attention to other gods."
Book 3: Ascendency of Ellistraeans
-------------------------------------------------------------------
My prediction of the next book's outcome:
1) Cavatina becomes chosen of Ellistraee
2) Ellistraee becomes a greater goddess
3) Hallistra is redeemed
4) Many dark elves will be redeemed and return to the surface
5) Lolth suddenly becomes an idiot and dies
... unless Lisa brings out Vhaeraun again.
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Edited by - ywhtptgtfo on 31 Aug 2007 04:23:49
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Kairin
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 09:03:47
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I haven't read it yet.. But I will, and I did like the first book.
Still, "The Supremecy of Ellistraee Trilogy" made me laugh so hard. |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 08:15:26
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| I do believe that there is some delicious subtleties in this book concerning the fate of the Drow pantheon and race. But I agree, I have a hard time caring about the characters. I read this to book to find out what happens. I also wretched when a demon lord was slain by a naked, bound priestess, and a goddess was erased by a mortal wizard and four apprentices working some high magic in a spell circle. Even if they were assisted. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 20:21:33
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quote:
The history of the elves were relatively rich and interesting and would've stayed so if the WotC did not intend to bring it back to the "modern" FR time period. Part of the appeal of Aryvandaar and Miyeritar is that they are dead nations that were once out of the charts in terms of power. It will definitely create a lot of balancing and consistency issues if the authors start digging them out of their graves (not to mention bad taste).
I would be less irritated with the way Ms. Smedmen is bringing up Kraanfhoar if she considered that those casting the wards on the door were
A) probably mixed wood and dark elves
B) all High mages from the premier college of magic in thier day...
C) who all died in the casting
D) were completely overrun by Aryvaandar before the Dark Disaster
I'm sorry, but from what I know of the rules about high magic (and I may be wrong, I am not an expert) Quarlynd should not be able to get in simply by the use of a circle spell and a kiira stone. I was under the impression that the reason that Drow elves could not cast Elven High Arcana was because they had lost the psychic connection that all other elves feel with each other and that connection was an integral part of what made High magic work. As I mentioned before, I am not an expert in such things and anyone who has a better grasp of it should feel free to correct me.
It would be nice if there was a realization in the narrative that times have changed and the racial definition of "Dark elf " might have changed between the Crown Wars and current Faerûn.
As for the balancing and consistency issues... I'm still sore over how much wanton resurrection took place in the last book. If such plot devices continue, I say Qilué should resurrect Elkantar, her original consort, and enjoy life as a mother with him.
I think I'm starting to rant. I think I'll stop and give someone else the screen.
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Edited by - Lady Fellshot on 08 Sep 2007 01:35:38 |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 03:38:12
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| I do believe WotC should choose its authors carefully next time. As far as I know, Extinction was the least popular of the WotSQ series and thus it'd make little sense for WotC to choose Lisa Smedman as the author for its sequel. I wonder what the trilogy would've been like if Elaine's the author of the Lady Penitent series. |
Edited by - ywhtptgtfo on 02 Sep 2007 03:41:58 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 20:34:03
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
I do believe WotC should choose its authors carefully next time. As far as I know, Extinction was the least popular of the WotSQ series and thus it'd make little sense for WotC to choose Lisa Smedman as the author for its sequel. I wonder what the trilogy would've been like if Elaine's the author of the Lady Penitent series.
I actually liked Extinction, I thought that although less happened in terms of moving the plot forward, the characterisation was good. I was under the impression that Annihilation was the worst received. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 04:48:36
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I am also curious on what "Lady Penitent" would look like if Elaine Cunningham was writing it. Oh well, it's just spilled milk now...
Anyway, I say that whatever Lisa Smedman's last books have been like, this series seems less character driven and more events driven. I would think this was obvious by the Drow pantheon playing sava with thier worshippers' lives. Clearly the mortals can't do anything without divine guidance and manipulation. It simply is not a good plot device, as well as bad DMing, to have mortal characters led around by the nose. *sigh*
Another point that has not been brought up, to my limited knowledge anyway, is that the "villians" are totally forgetable. I reread Sacrifice of the Widow a week ago and I still couldn't tell you exactly who or what the end big bad guy/gal will be. Right now, my best guess is Quarlynd (or however you spell his name) if only because he seems pragmatic, has survived both books and seems to be getting the most character development other than the Ellisstraeens. And no, the dieties shouldn't count. Too much Deus ex machina makes me slightly ill as an amatuer writer. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 11:10:46
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To save me buying this book could one of you who has read it drop me a PM and let me know if my favourite goddess is no-more please? 
EDIT: Thank you, Ozzalum. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 04 Sep 2007 14:15:28 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 16:30:03
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@ Kiaransalyn ... the thing is not as clear as first thought. I still haven't got my head around the magic used in there, what it did and to whom.
As for the book itself - plot aside, Lisa does a fine job with regards to the writing, so full marks on that. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 17:03:56
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Reply to Zanan.
You see, I have this image of a drow female, of a less than savoury disposition, suddenly finding herself holding a mummified drow hand, wearing lots of rings on her fingers, surrounded by a bunch of undead who she can no longer control, thinking, "How absolutely embarrassing I appear to have forgotten my deity's name!"
I wonder if this marvellous spell also erases names from books. If so, I'm sure the scribes of Candlekeep will be disconcerted, to say the least. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 17:10:51
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| I haven't read the book yet, so could someone explain how this deity-killing spell worked? You'd think that Mystra's edict would ban stuff like that. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 17:17:44
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| yeah, if they wipe Kiaransalee, I'll miss her. She made for a really good meddler deity working outside her pantheon. I like Lolth, but there's got to be something else in drow society besides hot looking chicks running around with whips torturing the men (not that that's a bad thing, its just I like my drow evil and not just kinky). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 20:43:31
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@ I haven't read the book yet, so could someone explain how this deity-killing spell worked? You'd think that Mystra's edict would ban stuff like that.
Apparently, Mystra did not ban god-killing spells in Lisa's case. Also, the abuse of resurrection spells is quite baffling. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 23:40:14
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Essentially, the longer you think about the spell, the less feasible it becomes. While initially a brilliant plan, it has a lot of loop-holes and features a number of problems. Epic or not, it is being given as an enchantment able to erase not memory, but a single word: Kiaransalee. Thus, the goddess would loose tons of followers if not all in a second - if it works. (-> And it does not matter what comes below, in FR canon terms, it simply does.)
Problems at first glance ... (edited)
- mortal magic is of nigh-unimportance on any being of deity status, so Kiaransalee (see below) herself would not be affected
- enchantments (mind-effecting spells) do not work on undead, and the leaderess and a number of her "Crones" are/were undead
- even if it works, it is no certainty that each and everyone is affected, being drow has its advantages, SR and high saves against - yes - enchantments
- if it works, what about those drow not currently under the affect of faerzress (working, as is being described in e.g. Champions of Ruin on the surface), they are not subjected to the spell as it is described (being cast through faerzress - unless, of course, that all drow carry their little bit of faerzress in themselves, which enables them all to cast Faerie Fire (which is according to the novel actually "Faerzress Fire", not "Fairy Fire" - then again, the namesake spell able to be cast by druids goes unmentioned)
- if it works, what about those who are not divine casters, for they are much less affected than the priestesses?
- E if it works but as described only erases the name "Kiaransalee" ... this does by no means erase every memory of The Revenancer, the Goddess of Undead and Revenge? E Described a bit after the actual spellcasting. Cavatina does not know the name of the goddess, but knows that She "was" a deity of death. Thus, the whole god-slaying takes on a more difficult twist, for unnaming a deity does not exactly kill her or "feeblemind" her servants ...
- E if it works, does it only affect Kiaransaleens or each and every drow within Faerun's Underdark? Will e.g. Q'arlynd and Qilúe remember the name? E As above. It was only the name that was taken away. BTW, 20% of Kia's faith were non-divine casters, who are virtually unaffected. So their worshippers don't go away either ...
... and that's just the beginning of it.
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 05 Sep 2007 17:15:55 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 05:54:16
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And don't forget in order for it to work it has to erase Kiaransalee's name from the minds of Realms-based deities too. And what about divine servants?
Perhaps this trilogy devoted to deicide should be called "Dumber and Dumber." My apologies they're drow so "D'umber and D'umber." |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 09:33:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
And don't forget in order for it to work it has to erase Kiaransalee's name from the minds of Realms-based deities too. And what about divine servants?
Perhaps this trilogy devoted to deicide should be called "Dumber and Dumber." My apologies they're drow so "D'umber and D'umber."
Well ... I try to stay objective as possible here, though I have a hard time seeing the point in all this. There was a war brewing among the drow deities fair and square and e.g. Vhaeraun taking on Eilistraee to get her followers and grow in power. (Why's he not on the sava table? Or is it just between good and evil - again?) Kiaransalee, well she's always been somewhat removed from the rest of the drow deities, being older and not exactly kin to anyone of them. (BTW, Ghaunadaur (not a drow deity as such, but anyway) has not make an appearance and I doubt he/it will.) With them more or less all gone and Qilúe training with that sword for "her mission" oh so hard, the outline of AotL more or less given in the teasers, the writing is more or less on the wall.
As for who's affected, I have already listed a number of things which are left open. As I understood it, the spell was transferred through the faerzress of the Underdark. The latter was apparently being manipulated by the Kiaransaleens (unintended?) while they summoned / created this Negative Energy thing. And here is another point left entirely open:
As opposed to LP I, where we get introduced into the thoughts and targets of the Vhaeraunians and the Selvetarmites, we get no view whatsoever on the Kiaransaleens. All we get to know is that about 99% of them are cackling, hag-like and apparently mindblasted crones, covering themselves in tattered robes and smearing their skulls with a paste of ash and rancid fat (I liked that bit), and summoning an army of undead minotaurs via the voidglobe. End of it. That will be the last impression of their cult on Faerûn, cast into stone with that novel. No Banshee Knights, no Orcus-hunting in Vaasa-land, no revenge aspect, no hexblades ... simply cast aside.
We do not learn anything on the Cormanthor drow either, those ex-Vhaeraunians. While the priests have trouble at their hands, what does the rest of them think? Obviously, they suddenly have "traitors" in their midst and the wizards etc. amongst them will most likely deal with that problem in the way of the drow.
What about the rulers of Ched Nasad and Chaulssin? Those drow-dragons of Vhaeraun? In other words, questions galore ...
It looks, as it is all geared for 1380 and the new FRCS and 4E, that we will have a fair amount of changes to the drow and their pantheon. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 10:08:24
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I second most of your thoughts, Zanan. A couple of years ago, there was an interesting article on the Dark Seldarine. Link. Now there is none of them left. There was only a handful of them anyway, whereas the Seldarine are probably the largest pantheon in the Realms.
The entire premise of this trilogy is rather stupid in my opinion. At the start we have Lolth and Eilistraee playing sava but why is Lolth treating her as an equal? One is a powerful Intermediate Goddess (and that was before the stunt with the 66th level of the Abyss) where as the other is a low ranked lesser goddess.
Then there is the very excellent point made by ywhtptgtfo: "The bad guys are idiots." What happened to that +2 modifier to intelligence drow get. Isn't Kiaransalee a Necromancer and therefore possessed of a high intelligence? Isn't she a cleric and therefore possessed of a high Wisdom? And that's before the divine abilities are factored.
It simply boils down to the fact that deities should not be killed because they are much more than an epic level mortal. They mean something to a lot of characters. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 10:35:40
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Well, one thing is of utmost importance here. The novels are in many ways meant to entertain the readership, but they also need to cater to the demands of the game and setting as such. There are many on here who have characters running about, campaigns based on regions, cults and the like. While that is all homebrew stuff, if one tells you that in 5 to 10 years in-game time, all goes to bust, whatever you do and there's no way out of it, the game and the campaign are essentially wrecked, the characters you have created and loved for years if not decades destined for the bin. No, that is not that great a feeling. Hence I am always a bit hesitant when authors have the freedom of the Wizards - so to speak - and are left with just a few milestones and deadlines.
NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE here! I have no doubt that every single author knows his or her stuff, has been gaming for ages and all. Yet, as we can see here, lots that needs to be said is left unspoken and as we will not see any game material on this for some time to come, tons of players, characters and DMs will be left with questions galore to ponder, with no official answer in sight. So, when it comes to finishing the trilogy, and I already bade Lisa to do this, there should be options given and explicitly said (for it will be considered canon) for those not feeling the impact of losing a goddess or god here and there, options for clerics not accepting the "disappearance" of their patron - options that will suit anyone around. In this respect, Shar wouldn't be my first option for ex-Vhaeraunites, but Mask or Grazz't or Rhyxali. And that's not just because I dislike nihilists, but because e.g. Mask was actually looking over Vhaeraun's shoulder. So please cater to all ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 12:44:48
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| I shall retire from this thread. Regardless of my thoughts or feelings, regardless of how long and eloquently I decide to argue my corner I am quite confident that the powers that be do not give a damn about me. I shall take comfort in reading Queen of the Demonweb Pits by Paul Kidd in the knowledge that the deity that was slain there continues in both the Realms and Greyhawk setttings. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 14:35:45
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Another small side note (this is more related to gameplay but can apply to the books too), is what about those clerics of Vhaeruan who decide that they do not wish to follow the edicts of the "Masked Lady" (Ellisstraee) and instead take the feat Servant of the Fallen (Lost Empires of Faerun) and get their spells anyway, in spite of their god being "dead"?
I think that if Ms. Smedman had decided to focus more on Cavartina and Hallisstra and less on deity killing and erasures I would have less to complain about. I'm not overly fond of those characters, but it feels like there is too much Realms shaking going on and bits are getting lost around the edges, adding more lack of credibility to the plotline. A straight up struggle between the Ellistraeens and the Vhaeruanites would have been interesting in and of itself. Oh, well... *sigh* |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 16:02:00
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Well, I haven't gotten this book yet, but from what I'm hearing its what I feared? Basically, they don't clear up what happens with Vhaeraun's worshippers (I'm thinking about 75% of them would turn to another deity like Mask, who would continue to fuel their hatred). They don't clear up what happens with Selvetarm's male worshippers (does Lolth accept them all, or do some turn to a deity like Garagos?). Apparently they represent all of Kiaransalee's worshippers as mad hags and then get rid of Kiaransalee?
Now, if these missing deities start showing up as "aspects" of Lolth (the whole multiple Lolths thing) that are at odds with the "overdeity" of Lolth... then this could have some purpose. However, I will say I rather liked Kiaransalee separate. It all sounds like "there's too many gods for 4e, lets eliminate some so future authors and game writers don't get confused". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 17:10:43
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The book actually mentions that a number of Vhaeraunites and a handful of Eilistraeens left the faiths when Vhaeraun was taken over by Eilistraee. Some (Vhaeraunian) characters "think" that it was actually the other way round and hence they pretend to work for Eilistraee now, doing all they must as they view it as a plan of their deity. The reader actually "knows" that Vhaeraun is dead, for his hacked-up body floats in the Astral (see intro). Unless Vhaerauan was able to trick the mother of all tricks, i.e. Lolth, that is.
Servant of the Fallen is, of course, an option, yet people have to "buy" that feat first.
Selvetarmites are said to be crawling back under the outstretched arms of Lolth - I seem to remember. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 17:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
It all sounds like "there's too many gods for 4e, lets eliminate some so future authors and game writers don't get confused".
God forbid that anyone writing for WotC bothers to read a source-book once the gullible masses have bought it.
It's possible I'm feeling cynical. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 17:56:22
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| All in all I still believe there will be a reset when all is done. Maybe just a bad dream. I could be wrong of course but one Drow deity left standing just does not make for a good ending. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 06:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
The book actually mentions that a number of Vhaeraunites and a handful of Eilistraeens left the faiths when Vhaeraun was taken over by Eilistraee. Some (Vhaeraunian) characters "think" that it was actually the other way round and hence they pretend to work for Eilistraee now, doing all they must as they view it as a plan of their deity. The reader actually "knows" that Vhaeraun is dead, for his hacked-up body floats in the Astral (see intro). Unless Vhaerauan was able to trick the mother of all tricks, i.e. Lolth, that is.
I only pose the feat as a fallback for gameplay more than fiction and more long term than immediate. I still hold the small glimmer of hope that Vhaeruan is actually playing possum. Part of what keeps a deity a deity is the prayers of his worshippers, right? And "Hacked up, not breathing" might not be instantly fatal to a god. But then, what do I know? *shrug*
Unfortunately, I think I'm going to hope in vain. "Alternate Universe" Forgotten Realms for me if that's the case. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 07:09:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
All in all I still believe there will be a reset when all is done. ...<snip>...one Drow deity left standing just does not make for a good ending.
I hope so too. Over the last five years I have predominantly been involved in drow-based role-playing. And most of the players that I have DM-ed during that time have played non-Lolthite characters. Just as for many, I'm sure, the appeal of Drizzt is identifying with one person facing a system. So for the players the appeal of playing someone a little unique.
As a quick reckoning, I would rank the drow deities in the following order according to player choice: Vhaeraun (25%), Lolth (20%), Kiaransalee (20%), Selvetarm (15%), Ghaunadaur (10 %) and Eilistraee (10 %). As you can see no one deity dominates.
Pantheons have an appeal for many I believe. Maybe its a link with our past or a chance to enjoy something akin to the rich colour of the Hindu faith. I had the reward of supervising an Indian student this summer and listening to him talk about his faith was both educational and fascinating.
Similarly, the Norse and Greek myths that I enjoyed as a child were pantheon-based. And, of course, we have the Valar of Middle Earth.
The idea that the drow are doomed to become a monotheistic race in a world where humans, elves and dwarves have a wide choice of deity seems unappealing to say the least. I suspect that away from the games I have been involved in many players would like to play a drow as their player character. As such moving a significant number of the drow towards a good or neutral alignment might well be a step towards that aim. However, I don't think that should be achieved at the expense of destroying a rich background. Now we have the situation where orcs have a richer faith than the drow.
I personally enjoy reading about the Seldarine and their counterpart, the Dark Seldarine. The Morndinsamman and the various human pantheons.
I think deities should be involved at a remote, distant level. Their worshippers need clerics to interpret their deity's will and the clerics rely mostly on auguries etc to try to discern their deity's wishes. From a gaming point-of-view this gives a DM more scope and allows players more control over their character since clerics may choose to flavour the divinations to suit their own purpose.
Finally, if deities speak at all I can never accept them speaking like a bunch of Valley Girls as the Prelude to SotD depicts them - sample pasted at the bottom of this post. Such a thing is abhorrent to me and destroys all sense of verisimilitude. It would be like having God sayeth unto Moses, "Yo Moses! Git yo' homies outta Egypt!"
“I just did,” Kiaransalee gloated. “Squish. Squish squish.”
A babble of taunting laughter followed. “Aren’t you sorry
now, for yanking my domain into yours?” |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 15:39:26
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Well ... there might be a few spoilers in The Orc King (out at the end of this month), and Ed was quoted over at the Wizards in a question roundabout 2005 (?), saying that dark female (Qilúe) was the daughter of two deities, the Godslayer wielding a mighty sword. In another thread hereabouts, only recently, Ed said that his Realms will always see Lolth in power though. I'll check the quote and come back a wee bit later.
In any case, I find the idea that a race, essentially an entire race is subjected to religious and cultural domination. So far, I cannot see a real objective, a "lifeline"* for those drow utterly uninterested in religion or cultural background**. It's like - forgive me the example - someone rapes you and happens by afterwards telling you that you have to give birth to the child, no matter what you think.
NB: Who hinders Q'arlynd and Co. casting another mindblank spell on the drow, erasing Lolth'S name? The faerzress link among the drow is still there, you know ...
*A lifeline that should not be asked for in the first place.
** You see, the redemption stuff, while it makes a fine option, should not become a "must take". The Ilythiiri were punished by the surface elves (Aryvandaans? I thought all were included and the Vyhsaan folk only participated?) with magic granted by the Seldarine. The drow, having been subjected to the banishment, have lived 12,000 years below the surface - with all the daily niceties included. Then happen by and tell them that's all "your own" fault and that of your goddess, give him a handshake (mindblast?) and say: come to the surface and rejoice now, we've cleaned your soul - or will do it if you accept penance for the "sins"*** of "your" kin of 12,000 years ago. Well, what next? Will the dwarves start something likewise with Clan Duergar?
*** Anyone out there to punish the Aryvandaans? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 15:47:09
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What the Hooded One said ...
29 Feb 2004
quote:
Qilue is a Chosen of Mystra with all the powers and special status other Chosen of the Mother Of All Magic possess.
Eilistraee wanted a “claim” on her, too, hence her Chosen of Eilistraee title. It means two things: she’s as loyal to Eilistraee as to Mystra (in daily practise, as shown in SILVERFALL, more so), and Eilistraee foresees using her in some great task (i.e. a not-yet-revealed destiny).
Being as this is Candlekeep, I can do no more than point you to what a Harper PC (not one of the Knights) uncovered when asking a monk of Candlekeep to research Qilue’s destiny. The monk was of course limited to finding prophecies and other written histories, and reported thus: one seer saw a dream wherein Qilue wielded a sword forged of her own blood, and was hailed by knights as “the Godslayer.”
However, another seer (the monk declined to identify either of his sources, BTW) said “the dark one who serves two goddesses but leads the dance for only one shall be mother to a new race, and change the face of the Realms forever.”
Either way, it seems Qilue’s future bids fair to be interesting.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=3
11 Feb 2007
quote:
I passed this thread to Ed, and he verbally responded to me with some points:
The percentage figures he gave are for ALL drow, so it would be incorrect in the extreme to look for 10 percent or more of drow IN MENZO to worship Eilistraee. Almost all Eilistraean worshippers are on the surface (and no, the Promenade is not the surface; it, BTW, is of course NDA because of the forthcoming Undermountain book).
Ed still holds the opinion that Lolth is the "strongest" and most dominant drow deity, and always will be (at least underground). He just chuckled at all of this debate, saying drow and the gods are the topics that always seem to get Realms fans in such an uproar. He finds it especially ridiculous when gamers try to portray him as the champion of Eilistraee, pitted against Bob Salvatore as the champion of Lolth.
Yes, everything Ed says is canon until or unless contradicted by WotC-published lore. He IS the CREATOR of the Realms, folks (and the principal designer of the Menzo boxed set and the writer of DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, too).
All of which leads me to be very puzzled when anyone takes issue with Ed's opinions or statements regarding the drow. I don't recall any great rush of people telling Tolkien he got the Nazgul wrong, or telling McCaffrey she just doesn't understand the dragons of Pern...
love to all,
THO
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8236&whichpage=2
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Nighttfall
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 23:06:23
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All I can say is that if I were Elistree, I'd just go to the Demon Lords and Demon Princes of the Abyss, say "Hey lookie Mom's making a bid to wipe out the drow pantheon! If you help me kill her and the rest of the panethon, I'll let you guys keep the less redeemable ones."
I mean that would make the most sense you'd think...
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 02:43:59
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This hasn't happened in every post here, but there is some creeping in of some things that we frown on here at Candlekeep. We have no problem with people not liking various developments to the Realms or the overall plot of a given novel, but let's make sure not to use words that are overly dismissive, to get too sarcastic, or to to make comments that can be taken more personally by the authors themselves, many of whom graciously spend time at these forums.
Please try to avoid extreme characterizaions of characters or even the plots. For the most part, its enough to say that it didn't work for you, and to explain why. And making fun of the book and its plot, or its title, tends to be viewed as dismissive and insulting.
Also, while its fine to mention that something does not match up with previous lore or with the game rules, please do not assume (and please try to avoid definitively stating) that a given author doesn't know the Realms or the rules, or what have you. You may know what is printed in the book, and what has been printed previously, but you don't know definitely how one gets from point A to point B, and to assume so is to assume a degree of familiarity with the authors and the writing process that I doubt many of us have.
Thanks all. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 04:43:19
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quote:
Also, while its fine to mention that something does not match up with previous lore or with the game rules, please do not assume (and please try to avoid definitively stating) that a given author doesn't know the Realms or the rules, or what have you. You may know what is printed in the book, and what has been printed previously, but you don't know definitely how one gets from point A to point B, and to assume so is to assume a degree of familiarity with the authors and the writing process that I doubt many of us have.
I don't mean to be rude, but I find this rather "dismissive".
By writing this, you assume that a given participant in this review thread doesn't know how to review a book in an objective manner. For your information, those of us who do not have the degree of familiarity with the authors and the writing process are still likely to be capable of telling a good tale from a bad tale. As for this thread, I believe those of us who commented (including myself) have tried to make our criticisms as objective and impersonal as possible. If you find any particular comment excessively offensive or unfair, perhaps you should point them out instead of trying to give us a lecture on how to discuss a book.
Also, it is fair to make fun of a book's title/description if it does not match up to its content.
Please don't take this personally. |
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Storm of the dead (Spoilers)
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