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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Aug 2007 : 15:20:35
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Yet another exercise in modifying something that likely to be completely different in 4th edition anyway! Hooray! Sorcerers are actually a fun concept, but once you get the idea that they naturally know spells and can throw a lot of them around, but don't know that many, the thrill is kind of gone.
Some thoughts on the the sorcerer, what to do to reinforce what its suppose to be, and to give players a reason to keep taking levels in the class even when they can switch out of it into PrCs.
1. Summon familiar is gone. No need for this, because it doesn't make much sense for a familiar to just naturally find someone that has never been trained in magic. Complete Arcane has a feat that allows an arcane caster to get a familar, and all of their arcane classes stack for its abilities, so if you wish to have a familar, that's the route to take.
In exchange for this, sorcerers at first level switch to d6 hit points (wilders have d6, and its roughly equivalent to having the Improved Toughness feat). Wizards may spend their formative years in non physical study, but sorcerers don't. Also, at first level, sorcerers gain the Eschew Materials feat for free.
In exchange, however, a sorcerer can't start the game knowing any spells that have material components more expensive than would be provided for by the Eschew Materials feat.
I toyed with the idea of taking anything off the sorcerer's spell list that has an expensive material component, but I think in the end, sorcerers should be able to learn more advanced spells, but it doesn't fit for a starting sorcerer.
2. At 3rd level, sorcerers can attempt to cast any cantrips they know, once they have used up their normal allotment of them, by making a DC 15 Spellcraft check. Each time past the first time that they attempt this, the DC goes up by +5. Essentially cantrips come easy to them after a while. Its a minor effect, but it reinforces that magic is a natural talent of theirs.
3. At 10th level, the sorcerer can recall a spell slot of a given level by drawing the energy from themselves. This causes them to take 1d6 points of damage +1d6/level of the spell slot.
4. At 18th level, the sorcerer gets the Sudden Quicken feat for free. This is pretty much the only way the sorcerer is going to pick up this feat, given how many feats are a prerequisite, and at this level, it doesn't affect things nearly as much.
5. For each level that the sorcerer doesn't another ability listed above, they gain a +1 bonus to concentration that can only be used to cast spells when they have been interrupted or the like. Essentially this helps to free up useful skill points for combat related casting, but it can't be used for any other application of concentration. This helps to reflect that sorcerers naturally can cast spells, even under duress.
Nothing too drastic, but enough to actually give the sorcerer something to give up if they do take PrCs (even the idea that many arcane PrCs have d4 hit points that the sorcerer would have to drop back down too can be an incentive to stay sorcerer a while longer).
So, any thoughts on the "alternate" sorcerer, or any thoughts of your own?
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 02:41:39
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One,
You knew this was going to draw me in, knight.... Shame on you 
Anyhoo, I like the Sudden Quicken at 18th, really handy there.
So, here's my list 'o' variations:
Give the Sorcerer a weapon proficiency. It doesn't have to be at first level (but I put one there), but it reflects that Sorcerers are not book worms.
Next I'd agree on the hit die increase.
I disagree with the cantrips. I like the slots, however, allow the sorcerer to "overcast" by making a concentration check, DC starts at 10, and increases by 2 per extra cantrip they cast.
I love the mechanic for "sacrificing" for their magic. That is wonderful. The last thought about concentration... It seems too much, I've graduated it in my little "fake table" below.
I have added at levels 6/13/20 a bonus feat. I would allow any metamagic, or a listing of general feats (hammering out details, I'll get back to you on this one).
I would also give sorcerers a medium base attack bonus. I don't think it's too gamebreaking, and I still think the sorcerer wouldn't get to use it much, but it would make touch spells and the like even more viable of a choice.
So, the levels would look like:
D6 Hit Die:
1. Weapon Proficiency (martial, ONE weapon!)
2.
3. overcasting I (cantrips)
4. Combat Caster (+2)
5.
6. Bonus Feat
7.
8. Combat Caster (+4)
9.
10. Overcasting II (Sacrifice)
11.
12. Combat Caster (+6)
13. Bonus Feat
14.
15.
16. Combat Caster (+8)
17.
18. Sudden Quicken Spell
19.
20. Bonus Feat, Combat Caster (+10)
WOW, that makes me want to play a sorcerer. 
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 01 Sep 2007 04:23:20 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 04:30:58
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If you throw bonus feats into the mix, I'd recommend bloodline, heritage, draconic, or metamagic feats, as these are more or less "untrained" magical abilities, or at least they can be.
What do you think of alternating a bonus to concentrate for casting and a bonus to Use Magic Device? I hate dead levels, especially once I'm tearing something apart and putting it back together again.
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 04:40:51
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More thoughts, I'll thread into the original table here:
Bonus Skills at 2nd level. I'm sure that I'm gonna offend here, but the Sorcerer should get more skills. I think along the same vein as the Fighter and adding an extra skill point to be used on said skills ONLY. Also, why not give a sorcerer a bloodline feat at levels 7 and 14? I don't believe it will break anything.
On to the "bloodline bonus skills:"
Bloodline type: Skills
Good outsider: Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (the Planes)
Evil Outsider: Intimidate, Sense Motive, Knowledge (the planes)
Lawful Outsider: Balance, Decipher Script, Knowledge (The Planes)
Chaotic Outsider: Escape Artist, Knowledge (The Planes), Tumble
Fey: Jump, Knowledge (Nature), Tumble
Dragon: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Spot
Elemental: Climb, Jump, Swim |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 04:42:58
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
If you throw bonus feats into the mix, I'd recommend bloodline, heritage, draconic, or metamagic feats, as these are more or less "untrained" magical abilities, or at least they can be.
What do you think of alternating a bonus to concentrate for casting and a bonus to Use Magic Device? I hate dead levels, especially once I'm tearing something apart and putting it back together again.
Good idear! Add Use Magic Device to a Sorcerer's class skills!
I was posting as you replied, and included the Bloodline feats at level 7 and 14. So, let's see where this leaves us... |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 04:49:48
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Hm . . . if you go by the bloodlines in the Dragon Compendium (which covers most of the other heritage/draconic feats that got put in later books, as far as types go):
Air Bloodline
Earth Bloodline
Fire Bloodline
Water Bloodline
Celestial Bloodline
Fiendish Bloodline (Fiendish Codicies had some individual demon/devil ones)
Draconic
Fey
Illithid (I think Lords of Madness had general aberration bloodline style feats)
Necromantic Bloodline (for those related to powerful necromancers or undead)
Penunbral Bloodline (we don't know of any shadow related things in the Realms, do we?)
Plant "Bloodline" (Honestly, thinking magical tinkering here)
Serpent Bloodline (Dovetails nicely with Serpent Kingdoms)
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 05:05:18
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*Insert random quips and cursing at KnightErrantJR* 
Okay, NOW I have to figure out a new class skill list!
That's okay. (Deep Sigh) Here we go, based on the posted bloodlines, others can (and probably will) be added later.
Air: Jump, Tumble, Knowledge (the Planes)
Earth: Climb, Intimidate, Knowledge (Geography)
Fire: Disguise, Knowledge (the Planes), Tumble
Water: Escape Artist, Knowledge (Geography), Swim
Celestial: Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (the Planes)
Fiendish: Intimidate, Sense Motive, Knowledge (the planes)
Chaotic Outsider: Escape Artist, Knowledge (The Planes), Tumble
Lawful Outsider: Balance, Decipher Script, Knowledge (The Planes)
Draconic: Diplomacy, Knowledge (any one), Spot
Fey: Jump, Knowledge (Nature), Tumble
Illithid: Decipher Script, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Sense Motive
Necromantic: Disguise, Forgery, Knowledge (Religion)
Penunbral: Hide, Knowledge (the Planes), Spot
Plant: Balance, Climb, Knowledge (Nature or Geography)
Serpent: Escape Artist, Knowledge (Geography), Sleight of Hand/Move Silently (can't decide here)
THERE!
/d
P.S. Sorry for the cursing... I'm just sooo good at it!
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"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 05:07:18
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Heh . . . poke . . . ::weapon focus in sharp stick::
Why not "heal" as one of the class skills for Necromantic? |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 05:10:17
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Okay, remove the Forgery, since I think that's the least usable
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 19:04:17
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I've decided to revise the above block: This includes all the rules in the current thread, and asks for abilities for X and level 19. These abilities are stand alone, and should be something that says "I can call up the power" any way they like. I've also included the bloodline skills for consolidation after the block, and included KnightErrant's explanation of abilities.
So, the levels would look like:
D6 Hit Die:
1. Weapon Proficiency (martial, ONE weapon!), Eschew Materials
2. Bloodline Skills
3. overcasting I (cantrips)
4. Combat Caster (+2)
5. Ability X
6. Bonus Feat
7. "Bloodline Feat"
8. Combat Caster (+4)
9. Weapon Focus (the martial weapon from level 1)
10. Overcasting II (Sacrifice)
11. Ability X
12. Combat Caster (+6)
13. Bonus Feat
14. "Bloodline Feat"
15. Greater Weapon Focus (weapon from level 1)
16. Combat Caster (+8)
17. Ability X
18. Sudden Quicken Spell
19. Big Power up
20. Bonus Feat, Combat Caster (+10)
At 3rd level, sorcerers can attempt to cast any cantrips they know, once they have used up their normal allotment of them, by making a DC 10 Spellcraft check. Each time past the first time that they attempt this, the DC goes up by +2. Essentially cantrips come easy to them after a while. Its a minor effect, but it reinforces that magic is a natural talent of theirs.
At 10th level, the sorcerer can recall a spell slot of a level up to 1 less than the highest level they can cast by drawing the energy from themselves. This causes them to take 1d6 points of damage +1d6/level of the spell slot.
At 18th level, the sorcerer gets the Sudden Quicken feat for free. This is pretty much the only way the sorcerer is going to pick up this feat, given how many feats are a prerequisite, and at this level, it doesn't affect things nearly as much.
At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, they gain a +2 bonus to concentration that can only be used to cast spells when they have been interrupted or the like. This is to a maximum of +10 at 20th level. Essentially this helps to free up useful skill points for combat related casting, but it can't be used for any other application of concentration.
Skill List:
Air: Jump, Tumble, Knowledge (the Planes)
Earth: Climb, Intimidate, Knowledge (Geography)
Fire: Disguise, Knowledge (the Planes), Tumble
Water: Escape Artist, Knowledge (Geography), Swim
Celestial: Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (the Planes)
Fiendish: Intimidate, Sense Motive, Knowledge (the planes)
Chaotic Outsider: Escape Artist, Knowledge (The Planes), Tumble
Lawful Outsider: Balance, Decipher Script, Knowledge (The Planes)
Draconic: Diplomacy, Knowledge (any one), Spot
Fey: Jump, Knowledge (Nature), Tumble
Illithid: Decipher Script, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Sense Motive
Necromantic: Disguise, Heal, Knowledge (Religion)
Penunbral: Hide, Knowledge (the Planes), Spot
Plant: Balance, Climb, Knowledge (Nature or Geography)
Serpent: Escape Artist, Knowledge (Geography), Sleight of Hand
Now, with the thoughts towards what abilities exist:
Ability X has 3 levels/choices. I would like to double that to make the sorcerer have many variations.
One thought is a "weapon focus/specialization" series of abilities for this set, but what about another set of abilities?
Perhaps a +1 to spell save DC's? This doesn't really make anything terribly more powerful (+3 DC at level 17).
As to level 19, should it "cap off" the Ability X abilities? Should it be a stand alone? What are you thinking?
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"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 03 Sep 2007 19:18:36 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2007 : 17:29:03
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| I'd throw in light armor proficiency, though they should still have arcane spell failure. Makes them a little more militant, but not as much so as a war mage. However, given the cash they could wear a mithril chain shirt +1 with twilight. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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3.5 Workshop: Sorcerer Modifications
