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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 03:29:01
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The book is really engrossing so far. I have to admit, I got a little teary eyed during the scene in the village when Abelar waited so he could heal the girls' mother. That entire scene was excellent, and I think it does a brilliant job of explaining the mindset of a paladin. Just an amazing scene really.
Has anyone else noticed that there is a sort of light/dark parallel between Abelar and Regg and Cale and Riven? Maybe I'm off a bit here, but Abelar and Cale are the more philosophical, natural leaders, and Regg and Rivalen are the more down to earth, practical of the pairs.
Rivalen continues to be a great character to follow, and I love Elyril's constant struggle to figure out what is really happening and what isn't. It will be interesting to see what Elyril will do when she finally catches up with Rivalen. I wouldn't put money on a drug crazed more than a little insane local cultist versus Rivalen, but I'm sure she could do something to throw a wrench into Rivalen's plans.
So Kesson Rel is Volumvax? I wonder exactly how he came to be a singular entity serving (ostensibly) Shar, given his former connection to Mask. I also wonder if Mask's plan to deal with his former Chosen also has anything to do with taking back his power with interest from Shar?
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TheRealmsWalker
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 19:02:46
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Nice to know that I was not the only that noticed the similarities between Abelar/Regg and Cale/Riven.
Paul, were these similarities planned or did it just work out that way?
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 11:07:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TheRealmsWalker
Nice to know that I was not the only that noticed the similarities between Abelar/Regg and Cale/Riven.
Paul, were these similarities planned or did it just work out that way?
RW,
Interesting connection. Not consciously planned by me. |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 11:31:37
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The scene with Abelar in the village was very touching. A nice reminder that not all of Sembia has fallen to evil powers.
And what (in the Nine Hells  ) is Mephistopheles up to? |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
Edited by - Braveheart on 07 Sep 2007 11:32:25 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2007 : 23:06:39
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Geez, these book titles are all so similiar at a glance that this forum is getting hard for me to navigate! :-P
quote:
The book is really engrossing so far. I have to admit, I got a little teary eyed during the scene in the village when Abelar waited so he could heal the girls' mother. That entire scene was excellent, and I think it does a brilliant job of explaining the mindset of a paladin. Just an amazing scene really.
Yes, I found those scenes to be very touching, myself. Shows that at least some goodness can poke through the darkness.
I do have to say something about Abelar during one of the battle scenes though (the one where they are engaging the section of the army that was set to cut off any rescuers). I know that Abelar and Company where the ones with truly good intentions, I know that the soldiers in Ordulin's army weren't victims. But for some reason, all the chanting and platitudes about goodness and light (with Abelar as the main cheerleader) kind of brought out my inner curmudgeon. First, they struck me as silly football chants ("They are many, we are few!"). Second, while I can understand a rousing, morale boosting speech before the battle, if I were a soldier *I* would rather concentrate on killing the enemy and not getting killed myself, rather than joining the leader in repetitions of "We stand in the light!"--but then again, I'm not the best multi-tasker. And third, it all reminds me of a common mentality that seems to occur often in fantasy stories that is not often thought about (and I'm probably guilty of this myself, sometimes): that is, the act and consequences of chopping people apart in battle are somehow smoothed over and made OK as long as the heroes reassure themselves with platitudes that they are the ones on the side of "goodness and light".
Once again, I KNOW that Abelar and his company did the right thing, and personally I am not a pacifist. Some things are worth fighting and killing for. But did they need to talk about how righteous they were as they were as they were doing it? I've never fought in a war, myself, but killing people up close with swords must be pretty ugly, disgusting business. Saying platitudes as you do it kind of...trivializes it, in my opinion. Or perhaps it glorifies it. I'm not sure.
I'm not trying to be a downer, or say that the author thinks that killing is a light and frothy thing to do (far from it!) but I just had to say my piece on this. Perhaps it speaks of a flaw in Abelar, not the book (although that makes it no less annoying). Overall, I'm more than halfway through the book and I'm enjoying it as much as the last book. I do think Mr. Kemp's work is refreshingly thoughtful, which is probably the main reason why the aforementioned platitudes stuck out like a sore thumb for me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Sep 2007 23:16:28 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 00:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Once again, I KNOW that Abelar and his company did the right thing, and personally I am not a pacifist. Some things are worth fighting and killing for. But did they need to talk about how righteous they were as they were as they were doing it? I've never fought in a war, myself, but killing people up close with swords must be pretty ugly, disgusting business. Saying platitudes as you do it kind of...trivializes it, in my opinion. Or perhaps it glorifies it. I'm not sure.
I took it more in the light they they were "Psyching" themselves up, trying to convince themselves that they were doing was right. They were probaly feeling alot like you were about it! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 01:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Once again, I KNOW that Abelar and his company did the right thing, and personally I am not a pacifist. Some things are worth fighting and killing for. But did they need to talk about how righteous they were as they were as they were doing it? I've never fought in a war, myself, but killing people up close with swords must be pretty ugly, disgusting business. Saying platitudes as you do it kind of...trivializes it, in my opinion. Or perhaps it glorifies it. I'm not sure.
I took it more in the light they they were "Psyching" themselves up, trying to convince themselves that they were doing was right. They were probaly feeling alot like you were about it!
I liken it to some of the ritual chanting/helmet thumping that goes on in pre-game football (American football, that is). It's intended to generate a sense of shared purpose and solidarity, get the blood pumping, and turn the enemy (or opposing team) into "the Other," for whom only death (or defeat) is appropriate.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 01:45:26
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I took it more in the light they they were "Psyching" themselves up, trying to convince themselves that they were doing was right. They were probaly feeling alot like you were about it!
I liken it to some of the ritual chanting/helmet thumping that goes on in pre-game football (American football, that is). It's intended to generate a sense of shared purpose and solidarity, get the blood pumping, and turn the enemy (or opposing team) into "the Other," for whom only death (or defeat) is appropriate.
Indeed, that's probably why I found the whole thing so unsettling (that is, "war as a football game", not the idea that those guys should be defeated--they did deserve defeat). I like paladins and I like Abelar, but I don't think that was one of his finer moments...
Red Walker, I've thought along the lines of what you said--it's possible that Abelar's and company didn't like what they had to do, but knew they had to do it, so those chants help them remember what was at stake. Still, if it were me I would have just kept my mouth shut and got the job done (not a great multi-tasker). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 15:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I took it more in the light they they were "Psyching" themselves up, trying to convince themselves that they were doing was right. They were probaly feeling alot like you were about it!
I liken it to some of the ritual chanting/helmet thumping that goes on in pre-game football (American football, that is). It's intended to generate a sense of shared purpose and solidarity, get the blood pumping, and turn the enemy (or opposing team) into "the Other," for whom only death (or defeat) is appropriate.
Indeed, that's probably why I found the whole thing so unsettling (that is, "war as a football game", not the idea that those guys should be defeated--they did deserve defeat). I like paladins and I like Abelar, but I don't think that was one of his finer moments...
Red Walker, I've thought along the lines of what you said--it's possible that Abelar's and company didn't like what they had to do, but knew they had to do it, so those chants help them remember what was at stake. Still, if it were me I would have just kept my mouth shut and got the job done (not a great multi-tasker).
I totally understand your thoughts on this, my mind just works a little differently. I know that if I have something important that needs done, I have a tendancy to focus too much. Often times I sing, to take my mind off of it a bit and get fired up. That's the feeling I got from them, that they didn't want to just sit and think "deep thoughts" about what they were undertaking. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 18:46:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I totally understand your thoughts on this, my mind just works a little differently. I know that if I have something important that needs done, I have a tendancy to focus too much. Often times I sing, to take my mind off of it a bit and get fired up. That's the feeling I got from them, that they didn't want to just sit and think "deep thoughts" about what they were undertaking.
Indeed, everyone is different. Some people say they concentrate best with music playing nearby, I'm the kind of person who prefers total silence. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 17:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Red Walker, I've thought along the lines of what you said--it's possible that Abelar's and company didn't like what they had to do, but knew they had to do it, so those chants help them remember what was at stake. Still, if it were me I would have just kept my mouth shut and got the job done (not a great multi-tasker).
They are Paladins and what must be done will be done.
On the battlefield you can not tell the enemy first that they are wrong and that if they try to attack you will cut them down.
Every soldier with a Tallasan Priest in his rangs and Lathander Prist as enemys should know that they stand on the side of the "bad" guys.
Great work Paul.
I liked the Dawn of Lathander, this was so amazing. To stand by the weak and then to get a sign of your own god. Great.
And the battle with the Lathander paladins in the first lines got me to play a good fighter in my next RPG Campaign....thanks :-)
The Plane of Shadow comes to live in your books. But I`m some kind of surprised that the Sembia at War storyline gets more for me then the Cale storyline.....so far. Umpf....help! |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 18:36:10
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Abelar gave the order: "...take the thumb from their sword hand..."
In my eyes very cruel, but it`s war.
I`ll remeber it for my new charakter; the bad NSC will get a good lesson from this *g* |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 01:01:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Lameth
They are Paladins and what must be done will be done.
On the battlefield you can not tell the enemy first that they are wrong and that if they try to attack you will cut them down.
Every soldier with a Tallasan Priest in his rangs and Lathander Prist as enemys should know that they stand on the side of the "bad" guys.
As I clearly said, Lameth, I had no problem with what they did... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Sep 2007 01:11:09 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 03:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
But did they need to talk about how righteous they were as they were as they were doing it?
That actually worked for me because they were Lathanderites. It actually made me think of some of the different deities and how their holy warriors would act. I would expect the same attitude from paladins of Torm. Paladins of Tyr would psyche themselves up talking about how they were on the side of justice, followers of Tempus the joy of battle, etc, etc. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
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Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 04:33:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
That actually worked for me because they were Lathanderites. It actually made me think of some of the different deities and how their holy warriors would act. I would expect the same attitude from paladins of Torm. Paladins of Tyr would psyche themselves up talking about how they were on the side of justice, followers of Tempus the joy of battle, etc, etc.
That's a good point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2007 : 11:27:15
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Seriously, the problem is with a holy order, you have naturally contemplative people by nature. They're the kind of people who'd question "is slaughtering a bunch of people to the last man a good thing?" The problem is that this very good kind of forethought really ****s you over when you're actually on a battlefield and hesitation can get you killed.
So we get the issue "Yeah, absolutely he deserved to die and absolutely it was a righteous act to kill him."
Which is a certainty you should be uncomfortable with but is pretty necessary for a bunch of contemplatives of a NG order.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2007 : 20:59:44
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quote:
So we get the issue "Yeah, absolutely he deserved to die and absolutely it was a righteous act to kill him."
Which is a certainty you should be uncomfortable with but is pretty necessary for a bunch of contemplatives of a NG order.
Umm, no, that was not my point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 Nov 2007 21:01:02 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2008 : 17:23:34
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As promised, I continued reading. And it still holds true to the standards set in Shadowbred. Intruguing, fast moving events and exciting to read. Some special scenes I would like to touch upon:
1. The fighting scense discussed above, where the two cavalry armies clash was an amazing read. I felt like riding with them. 60 feet, 30 feet, 10 feet, action! Great! Loved it. However, I did not develope any philosophical thoughts on war or how it is to kill or the like. I simply enjoyed reading through this part. I can only say so again: great read.
2. The scenes with Mephistopoles: I wonder what he is really up to....
3. I still havn't figured out if Elyril is truely mad or not. She being a shadow now, I was a little disappointed about this turn of events but I am all the more interested how this continues. BTW, what kind of spell did she employ to escape her certain death? Is there an equivalent in game mechanics?
4. I've followed the story of Cale and Riven in the plane of shadow with interest as well. However, it seems to me that I cannot understand the entire depth of this plot because I know not the history of Cale and Kesson Rel. Which books detail that history?
Anyhow, great book as well. Not a bit short of what I expected after reading Shadowbred.
Ergdusch
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 28 Jan 2008 10:05:12 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2008 : 23:31:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
4. I've followed the story of Cale and Riven in the plae of shadow with intrist as well. However, it seems to me that I cannot understand the entire depth of this plot because I know not the history of Cale and Kesson Rel. Which books detail that history?
There just plain isn't that much information at all on Kesson Rel. I think what you are seeing in the novels is pretty much all that we know.
As for Cale, check out the Sembia series and the Erevis Cale series if you haven't read them already. Of course, it's not like his whole history has been made known, either. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 10:02:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
4. I've followed the story of Cale and Riven in the plae of shadow with intrist as well. However, it seems to me that I cannot understand the entire depth of this plot because I know not the history of Cale and Kesson Rel. Which books detail that history?
There just plain isn't that much information at all on Kesson Rel. I think what you are seeing in the novels is pretty much all that we know.
As for Cale, check out the Sembia series and the Erevis Cale series if you haven't read them already. Of course, it's not like his whole history has been made known, either.
Thanks Rino.
I haven't read any other Cale books yet. Therefore I was wondering if Kesson Rel might have beenn introduced in any of the prior books already. Apperently that was not the case. All the better.
I have read a little further last night and Kesson Rel's history has been revealed/explained. At least as far as it is important to the events of the novel, if I might say so.
BTW, it is very interesting to actually see something being done with the 'Volumvax-Hook' that was presented in Faiths & Pantheons. However, the name Kesson Rel was never mentioned there and the history portrayed in the novel differs a lot from the one in F&P (as well as other matter), which was part of my earlier Confusion. Sometimes it is better not to know all that much from the game/sourcebooks. Spoils the element of free imagination every once in a while. 
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 28 Jan 2008 10:10:59 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 17:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I do have to say something about Abelar during one of the battle scenes though (the one where they are engaging the section of the army that was set to cut off any rescuers). I know that Abelar and Company where the ones with truly good intentions, I know that the soldiers in Ordulin's army weren't victims. But for some reason, all the chanting and platitudes about goodness and light (with Abelar as the main cheerleader) kind of brought out my inner curmudgeon. First, they struck me as silly football chants ("They are many, we are few!"). Second, while I can understand a rousing, morale boosting speech before the battle, if I were a soldier *I* would rather concentrate on killing the enemy and not getting killed myself, rather than joining the leader in repetitions of "We stand in the light!"
I have to agree. And I'm not saying this because knights/paladins usually don't interest me. Chanting those unnecessary words simply irked me. But overall, the book is great.
More development on Rivalen is more than enough for me to keep reading this novel. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Shadowstorm: Chapters 5 - 8
