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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2007 : 22:06:08
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Hello again, scribes of Candlekeep.
I have recently found myself pondering on faiths of Oghma and Deneir, two quite interesting deities. I'm considering a "adventuring sage" type of a character, looking for lore to record and doing original research of his own. I also have in mind a series of events around the deities of knowledge, on a Neverwinter Nights PW I DM on. However, I'd rather come to deeper insight on the dogma of these two deities and the attitudes of their churches, before creating any NPCs or the aforementioned PC.
I've read the gods' entries from both Faiths and Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons, so I know the basics. I still fail to grasp the essential differences between these two deities, other than a few (mostly superficial) details. So, I open the discussion with a simple question:
Where can I find more information on said deities, their servants and churches? I've read the Clerical Quintet as well.
That question asked, I'd like to suggest we discuss how we interpret the deities in different situations. Or, rather, I'm asking you as I don't have a very good view yet. >_> If any of you here at Candlekeep are familiar with these deities, I'd be grateful of a few example situations and questions, and answers of what Deneir/Oghma and/or their followers would do/answer in given situations. Or whatever comes to mind when the two names are mentioned! I'm sure some of us here feel either of these two would be our patron deity were we in the Realms, as we're curious enough to spend time on these forums. Really, the ball's in your court, and free discussion about the deities' differences and similarities is appreciated.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2007 : 22:32:48
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Well, I'd say, to start, that Deneir has no problem being subservient to Oghma, just as Torm has no problem being subservient to Tyr. Likewise, just as duty and honor can fall under Tyr's general concern as far as justice goes, so too can Deneir's interest in knowledge fall under the general aegis that Oghma's interests fall under.
Basically, what it comes down to is the specialized interests of the gods in question. Oghma is interested in knowledge in general. This might mean songs and oral traditions, legends, histories, and folklore, not matter how it is expressed. Deneir, on the other hand, is a more "literal" deity. To Deneirath, knowledge isn't as real or as relevant if it isn't preserved in some visual manner.
A cleric of Oghma might have no problem trusting his memory to remember a song or a story, or he may even respect a given culture that requires some forms of knowledge to only be preserved in a manner that is less permanent, such as passing it on directly in oral form from one generation to another. A Deneirath would probably get very antsy trying not to keep a written or at least pictographic record of what they had learned.
Oghma is much more about open knowledge. "I've found this out, so let's disseminate the information." Deneirath can be a bit more "close to the vest" when it comes to disseminating information. Unlike Oghmanites that will likely learn something and pass it on, and will sometimes even have members of the Church prying secrets into the open (for an example, see the novel Blackstaff), Deneirath have much less of a problem storing information in codes and cyphers if they think that the information might be better hidden from obvious view.
Oghama's church tends to be a bit more of an "open book," so to speak, while Deneirath's don't have a problem with having more of an agenda than "knowledge for the sake of knowledge." They might make sure that some information they have found gets into the "right" hands, and they will make sure that the Church of Deneir has a copy of anything worthwhile even as they make other copies of a given text, for example.
Deneir also appears to be a least a little more "goal oriented" in that it is Deneir's order that is seeking out information on the Meta-text to prevent it from harming Oghma. This seems to indicate that either Deneir takes this threat more seriously than Oghma does, or that Oghma trusts Deneir, in his specialty as lord of Glyphs and Images, to root it out while he pursues his more general course of action.
I will say this though, that as always struck me as a bit strange. Why in the name of Candlekeep was Cadderly so enamored of "Song" in the Cleric Quintet . . . ? I could see finding beauty and truth in art (since that is also part of Deneir's portfolio), but songs really aren't Deneir's "thing."
Ah well. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2007 : 22:52:26
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Thanks for the great comments and insights! This is exactly what I hoped too see.
Your thoughts about the "song of Deneir" echo mine. I was also puzzled by the harmonic nature of Deneir's song, and the aversion to chaos. At least that is how I interpreted the description of Cadderly's fight against Fyren in The Fallen Fortress, the spell he used (some sort of Enervation?) was forbidden for Deneir's priests and horridly chaotic. Deneir is not a Lawful deity, which is why I found it strange. Perhaps it was merely that the spell he used, as a cleric of a good deity, was evil, though?
Could you tell a bit more about the Metatext? From what I read, it seems to be something mostly Deneir believes to exist, and is something he and his followers want to reveal. I wasn't under the impression it was something harmful, especially to Oghma. Why does it need to be rooted out? To avoid mortals from challenging Oghma's position? And is there any place I can read more about it?
A random thought, before heading to bed for the night: There seems to be a lot of talk about "ideas" with Oghma. Has anyone made the connection to Plato and his idealistic ontology? Perhaps Oghma advocates the use of reason and philosophy to come to realization about the harmonic, ever-present nature of ideas, rather than observing reality and any research written about it? I don't know if there's any basis for this assumption, I'm just wondering if someone actually took the Plato-theme that far. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2007 : 23:01:53
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The Meta-text was a sort of "gotcha" that Leira, goddess of lies and illusion threw into the fabric of reality to "one up" Oghma, who is essentially much more concerned with facts and truth than he is illusion and lies.
Essentially if the Meta-text lines up the right way, there will be a day in which nothing new is created or thought about, and as such, Oghma will either cease to exist (worst case scenario) or be completely powerless. So, Deneir and his priests seek to find all the fragments of the Meta-text so that they don't inadvertently line up and cause this day to occur.
For what its worth, I never really saw this as Leira being aggressive or antagonistic toward Oghma, but as Leira more or less simply seeing if she could pull it off, and to see if Oghma could find all of her hidden subtleties. I think it really was more of a game to her, and was meant as more of an annoyance to Oghma than as a dire threat (even if it is, in the end, a fairly dangerous thing to have created). |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 16:56:10
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Oh, this is new information. Deneir's entry in Faiths and Avatars mentions the Metatext as something that grants its reader divinity, which is why it's sought. The legend goes, according to the aforementioned book, that Deneir himself ascended to divinity by catching a glimpse of that text, and has ever since yearned to read all of it. Oghma
Does all of this fit into what you explained, or was there maybe new information "discovered" after the writing of F&A, which proved some of its facts false? ("New lore trumps old lore", that is.)
I don't have either of the deity books handy right now, but here are some bits I found online. I recall seeing them in the books as well, though I might be mistaken:
quote:
In the realm of the ideal, a single work of writing when read, will unlock the secrets of the multiverse, catapulting its reader to the heights of godhood. The pursuit of this work, known as the Metatext, consumes the deity Deneir (deh-neer) and his followers. It is said that Deneir, a servant of Oghma the Binder, first achieved his position among the deities by glimpsing the merest portion of this text, and that the need to read the entire work gives him purpose.
It seems I can't make heads or tails of this. :D
quote:
[Oghma] knows little of the obscure Metatext, suspecting that his servant chases shadows of the mind, following the half-imagined ramblings of a thousand mad scholars.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36995 Posts |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 19:01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
The Meta-text was a sort of "gotcha" that Leira, goddess of lies and illusion threw into the fabric of reality to "one up" Oghma, who is essentially much more concerned with facts and truth than he is illusion and lies.
Essentially if the Meta-text lines up the right way, there will be a day in which nothing new is created or thought about, and as such, Oghma will either cease to exist (worst case scenario) or be completely powerless. So, Deneir and his priests seek to find all the fragments of the Meta-text so that they don't inadvertently line up and cause this day to occur.
For what its worth, I never really saw this as Leira being aggressive or antagonistic toward Oghma, but as Leira more or less simply seeing if she could pull it off, and to see if Oghma could find all of her hidden subtleties. I think it really was more of a game to her, and was meant as more of an annoyance to Oghma than as a dire threat (even if it is, in the end, a fairly dangerous thing to have created).
I thought that the Meta-text and Leira's scheme were two different things. Oghma encourages Deneir to search out the Meta-text, but why would he favor the discovery of Leira's project? Can someone please clarify this for me?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 29 Aug 2007 19:02:11 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 20:38:21
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What was said about the Metatext and Deneir’s ascension to godhood is true - Deneir tries to gather all peaces of this text; an endeavor which Oghma believes to be “chasing shadows of the mind”.
But the evil worked by Leira seems to be something completely different. Appearing in a sidebar at the entry of Oghma in Faith and Pantheons, it is described as a text hidden in fragments in all written texts of the past, present and future. The snippets - sometimes words, juxtapositions of letters, even whole sentences - convey little by themselves. But as a whole text, they are in fact a great and terrible lie, that, when read, will result in a day in which nothing can be created - and this will lead to the death of Oghma because he will be cut off from the creative energy that gives him form and purpose. *This text is nowhere called “Metatext”.*
Looking at the different purposes (making sense and giving godhood vs. telling a lie and killing a god) one can presume that that the Metatext and Leiras deceit are two completely different things. If Deneir really became god by a glimpse at a small fragment of this text, then it is rather plausible that the two are different and Leira made a second text. In this case Deneir’s pursuit is dangerous because there is a chance that he will cause unintended mischief by confounding Leira’s Lie with the Metatext.
On the other hand, given the deceptive nature of Leira, it is quite possible that Deneir has been cheated about the purpose of the Metatext and the two are one and the same. Maybe even some of it’s fragments have the ability to work great things like bestowing godhood onto mortal beings to trick them into searching the remaining of the Metatext with more vigilance to bring about the revelation of the greatest lie ever and thus Oghma’s destruction.
These are the two possiblities the sages have to ponder. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 29 Aug 2007 23:00:20 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 22:17:10
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| Sorry about the confusion. I should have known better. For some reason the two concepts condensed in my mind to become one. I apologize for the confusion, and my general lack of knowledge and fact checking. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2007 : 18:25:55
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Ah, so it was just a mistake. No worries whatsoever, it did spark interesting discussion about the Metatext.
Oghma seems to enjoy the status quo of knowledge and theories, doesn't he? I can't recall what the books said, exactly, but doesn't he hide or avoid knowledge that might shake the current balance, a coherent system of truths? It's somewhat contradictory, as he does encourage finding new ideas and inspires artists. That's an aspect I've yet to understand. What do you folks think about this? And, in general, what differences would a typical Deneirrath and a typical Oghmanyte have in their attitude towards and methods of research? I know Oghmanytes tend to shun Gondian irresponsibility when coming up with new things, they want to make sure the information is the kind that can safely be discovered. That does seem rather manipulative, and against the principles of rational search for truth and knowledge. |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 21:14:45
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I just seem to return to this topic, time and again. The quest of knowledge is neverending, I suppose. >_<
Anyway, to my question. I'm wondering why Oghma, of all gods, has the Trickery domain? Leira was his opponent and he, while manipulating the ideas which are allowed to see light, encourages his followers to seek truth. They may lie as "private persons", but they can't purposefully falsify maps or deliver messages incorrectly. How is Oghma a deity of trickery? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 16:59:31
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| The only thing I can see of trickery that would fit Oghma would be things like riddles, cryptic phrases, songs that subtly provide clues to things. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 19:15:39
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| This is in accordance with him being the patrons of bards who use this kind of entertainment often. Besides, teaching truth in the form of riddle is very creative act and a gem of inspiration. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 21:13:45
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I, too, have been thinking about gods of knowledge. What I find to be the biggest difference is that Oghma inspires creativity, but Deneir seems to be about preservation. I think that an Oghmanyte (spelling ?) would work towards invention, original composition, and new discoveries, but a Deneirath would seek out other people's writings (or glyphs), and would also not care much about a physical invention (a new gadget or even a new alchemical potion), but would be interested in the inventor's notebooks.
That's my take, at least. 
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 21:15:28
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(EDIT: This was in reply to the posts concerning trickery, as Jamallo posted while I was typing. That's a bit how I've come to view it as well, Oghma is way more universal and Deneir merely focuses on writings and physical pieces of creativity you can preserve. I wouldn't say he doesn't want to create new, but for the Deneirrath struggling with philosophy, seeking enlightenment, getting the inspiration for that perfect serenade, is all meaningless unless it's recorded and shared. Oghma values the idea itself.)
Perhaps, perhaps. It's a bit ironic, though, considering Leira was one of his main opponents.
I'll continue with yet another question: Where can I find information on Oghmanyte churchces (as in branches like the Orthodox Church of Oghma and the Oghmanyte Church), temples as well as clergy members and actions? I'm interested in individual temples, which side they have taken in the split within the church, and what are the current-day events among the clergy. Old legends and anything I could use are very welcome. I've read the Key of Faith -entry from Prayers from the Faithful, but there's little else I've found.
Sooo, might Ed have answered some of these questions here? And which books mention Oghma or his church, even a bit? (Particularly as Oghma, I'm not very interested in his Curna-alias.) Deneir info is good too, but I'm more inclined towards Oghma right now. |
Edited by - IronAngel on 06 Sep 2007 21:19:02 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 00:35:00
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quote:
Originally posted by IronAngel
I'll continue with yet another question: Where can I find information on Oghmanyte churchces (as in branches like the Orthodox Church of Oghma and the Oghmanyte Church), temples as well as clergy members and actions? I'm interested in individual temples, which side they have taken in the split within the church, and what are the current-day events among the clergy. Old legends and anything I could use are very welcome. I've read the Key of Faith -entry from Prayers from the Faithful, but there's little else I've found.
The various deities books, like Faiths & Avatars, cover most of what's been currently published about the Oghmanyte church. There are scattered tidbits also, in various regional sources that reference particular Oghma temples around the Realms. Otherwise, it's still a sadly neglected part of the Realmslore.
You could try asking Ed for a few particulars though, since he's always keen to share whatever little tidbits he can concerning the various worldy-activities of the gods of Toril.
quote:
Sooo, might Ed have answered some of these questions here? And which books mention Oghma or his church, even a bit? (Particularly as Oghma, I'm not very interested in his Curna-alias.) Deneir info is good too, but I'm more inclined towards Oghma right now.
Ed's tackled a few Oghma and Deneir-related questions in the past. You could try searching through the compiled reply files themselves, or using the Index files stored here at Candlekeep. |
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 19:33:18
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Paul S. Kemp's Twilight Falling (book 1 of the Erevis Cale trilogy) features Sephris, who may or may not have been Oghma's Chosen.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Comparing Oghma and Deneir
