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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 15:40:58
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Just imagine when they do this to D20 Modern. Your high-school dropout car mechanic will be just as adept at hacking as the computer engineering guy who graduated at 19 with a doctorate from MIT. And both of them would have to race to beat the stoner music store clerk, while trying to get into the NSA mainframe.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 16:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I agree with this logic. For a fighter, for example, there are only so many ways to swing a sword. If I'm playing a fighter (and I have), I'm not looking to be equal to a wizard -- I'm there to "bash it with my sword!" And I certainly don't expect my sneaky git of a thief to be able to do the same amount of damage as someone who commands the very elements...
And this is where the social implications come about. A fighter is going to be viewed far more favorably than a wizard. Maybe you'll get an apprentice or three but you aren't likely to have a large number of followers without enforcing the following with your magic. People just tend to distrust someone who can compel others, who can summon demons, devils and other monsters, etc.
A fighter has an, almost natural, advantage in terms of leadership. People can look upon him/her and identify with their ability, even if they can't match it (see pro athletes vs genetic researchers). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 16:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I agree with this logic. For a fighter, for example, there are only so many ways to swing a sword. If I'm playing a fighter (and I have), I'm not looking to be equal to a wizard -- I'm there to "bash it with my sword!" And I certainly don't expect my sneaky git of a thief to be able to do the same amount of damage as someone who commands the very elements...
And this is where the social implications come about. A fighter is going to be viewed far more favorably than a wizard. Maybe you'll get an apprentice or three but you aren't likely to have a large number of followers without enforcing the following with your magic. People just tend to distrust someone who can compel others, who can summon demons, devils and other monsters, etc.
A fighter has an, almost natural, advantage in terms of leadership. People can look upon him/her and identify with their ability, even if they can't match it (see pro athletes vs genetic researchers).
Not only that, but it's easier to learn to swing a weapon than it is to learn magic. Anyone can pick up a sword or axe or club and swing it, but not everyone is smart enough, or has the resources and opportunity, to study magic. That's another part of why I don't have a problem with high-level wizards commanding more power than anyone else: it takes a lot more to get there, and thus those high-level wizards are going to be a relatively rare breed.
One NPC I created dreamed of becoming a powerful wizard, but simply didn't have the opportunity until long after he'd become a skilled swordsman. It was only after he was already a powerful fighter that he got the opportunity to study magic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 17:03:33
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Indeed, in addition to the whole "magic is addictive" idea.
Sure there isn't a game mechanic for the idea but it's a long standing property of magic use. Thus, while most high powered magic users could rule a kingdom, or impact the world more than a fighter, they don't. They're typically far more interested in figuring out how to modify this or that spell, create a new spell or something along those lines, than in actually interacting with the rest of the world. |
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Rhone Ethenkhar
Acolyte
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 17:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Rhone Ethenkhar
I suppose there was a lot of griping because people felt MU's were all powerful at high levels in comparison to everyone else, and the game "broke down" as it were ( a lame way of describing it imho).
Why do you suppose that? If that happened there'd at least be scattered anecdotal evidence of no one playing characters other than magic-users in pre-3E D&D. There isn't.
People have always bitched about mages becoming so powerful at high levels, at least according to my experience and the readings of Dragon magazine etc. Just because there is no anecdotes about does not mean it does not exist. It seemed fair to me anyway, for the reasons I pointed out earlier. Incidentally, I realised this a long time ago and it never prompted me to play a mage for that reason. Choosing a PC class because it ends up being the "best" as it were, is distasteful to me.
This has also been (again, according to what I have read and heard) something people have pulled out of a hat to justify a new edition because of a supposedly perceived problem with the rules. It allows the "old" game that will not be supported anymore to look as bad as possible and the new "shiny" version which will be supported to look as good as it can. It claims to "fix" these imperfections, albeit with other ones no doubt imho.
quote:
Originally posted by FaraerThere are lots of viable ways of working different kinds of balance into RPGs and their rules.
Oh, I quite agree.
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" Unlike me, many of you have accepted the situation of your imprisonment, and will die here like rotten cabbages...I intend to discover who are the prisoners and who are the warders." -the Prisoner |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 18:25:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
They decided on one specific idea of what was fun. Which is fine, but as with 'balance', 'fun' doesn't just mean what Wizards says it does at any given time.
Well, no argument there. What's "fun" differs from person to person. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Jun 2008 18:29:26 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2008 : 10:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
For what its worth, my thoughts on 4th Edition are posted on my blog here:
http://knighterrantjr.livejournal.com/
A very good analysis of 4E, Knight! I have also read the books, but I don't own them, and I more or less agree with your points. My own "issues" with 4E also concentrate over visualizing how most powers work (e.g. Positioning Strike, Tricky Shot(?), Warlord's "proto-magical" powers, etc.) in the story, and I just can't get the monsters. I mean, I just don't think 4E gives you very good "tools" or guidelines to teach step-by-step how to pick those "unique" powers (IIRC there was no "budget" for them?). It would definitely take me about *ten* times as long to design an NPC or monster in 4E than it does in 3E/Pathfinder. In addition to this, I think the whole "type" system is wonky... (and some of those types and names are just ridiculous).
But yeah, it's a solid system that is consistent and mechanically very explicit... for the PCs. It does not work very well from a 'simulationist' perspective, but if you prefer action and group dynamics over "realism", you'll probably like 4E. Also, it *does* mechanically encourage role-playing and character immersion more than 3E, at least if you're using the Skill Challenge system and Improvised Actions. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Rhone Ethenkhar
Acolyte
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2008 : 13:14:49
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
For what its worth, my thoughts on 4th Edition are posted on my blog here:
http://knighterrantjr.livejournal.com/
Wow, first rate write up and good bit of writing! Thank you !! 
quote:
From KnightErrantJR's blog
For people that have said 4th edition isn't D&D, well, that's a hard case to make. Its a level based game where you get XP and become more powerful over time, you have different classes with different roles, and you kill monsters and avoid traps to get gold and treasure. At its most basic, 4th edition is most certainly D&D. It may not be the "flavor" of D&D to appeal to all players, but its D&D all right.
While I do not dispute the facts you present in that passage, I feel personally that what makes D&D is the flavour. You can do all those things stated in any number of rpg's yet they are most definitely not D&D (like Palladium fantasy for instance. Yecch!! )
Anyway, loved reading it and I think your analysis is bang on! Kudos!!
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" Unlike me, many of you have accepted the situation of your imprisonment, and will die here like rotten cabbages...I intend to discover who are the prisoners and who are the warders." -the Prisoner |
Edited by - Rhone Ethenkhar on 28 Jun 2008 19:39:40 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2008 : 18:49:15
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I note with "I told you so" satisfaction that Amazon.com is now offering new and used copies of the just-printed, falsely so-called "Dungeon Master's Guide" for a bit more than half of the cover price. People are apparently dumping theirs already.
I repeat: NEW COKE.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2008 : 21:12:11
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| Thanks for checking out the blog guys. I know that 4th isn't for me, but at the same time, I wanted to give it a fair shot. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't so great so to convince me to change how I want to design and run my campaigns. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2008 : 23:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
For what its worth, my thoughts on 4th Edition are posted on my blog here:
http://knighterrantjr.livejournal.com/
Will read it then.
EDIT: I read it! Great review, and I liked a lot of the points you made. By the way...
quote:
But I'm not playing the abomination that inherited the name of the Forgotten Realms.
Same goes for me. I really like the new system and would love to play it, but I'd prefer to play it in a setting other than the FR. I just couldn't bring myself to accept the context of the new FR setting.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Jun 2008 23:21:43 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2008 : 23:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I note with "I told you so" satisfaction that Amazon.com is now offering new and used copies of the just-printed, falsely so-called "Dungeon Master's Guide" for a bit more than half of the cover price. People are apparently dumping theirs already.
To be fair, isn't that likely to happen with most widely sold books? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2008 : 23:52:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I note with "I told you so" satisfaction that Amazon.com is now offering new and used copies of the just-printed, falsely so-called "Dungeon Master's Guide" for a bit more than half of the cover price. People are apparently dumping theirs already.
To be fair, isn't that likely to happen with most widely sold books?
As much as I want to believe that 4E is already proving to be a disaster for WotC, I'm inclined to think RF is right. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ladejarl
Seeker
Norway
55 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 13:50:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I repeat: NEW COKE.
I realy like to think so, but let's wait eight to ten months.
I can't picture the south getting all riled up over 4ed. though. |
"There should be much less violence, and more nudity and kinkiness in the world." |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2008 : 22:48:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ladejarl
I really like to think so, but let's wait eight to ten months.
I dunno, with comments like "it feels like we're playing a board game", "I'm really not liking forth edition" and "the munchkins have taken over D&D" being heard from other players at my FLGS, I think it's safe to say that in the experiences of the gamers down here, 4th edition has not lived up to the hype. So I'm kinda agreein with Jamallo. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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danbuter
Seeker
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 00:36:17
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| Read your review. Looks like I might actually like 4e (I quit playing 3e because it was too damn complicated). I just wish that instead of this new, world-shaking event, they could just publish the gray box, but in 4e. :) |
Nothing beats the gray box!
Dan |
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Gwydion669
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2008 : 06:53:22
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Another thumbs up to the review (gotta respect anyone who's a Hans fan).
Despite the change in style, I probably would have picked up 4e just to understand the mechanics of any new Realms releases. Since I have no interest in anything I've heard (what with the Spellplague and all), I see no reason to buy it anymore.
I do find myself part of the "WotC has turned their back on the long time fans" grouping, and will therefore not provide them with anymore money. I have also found that I have gotten vindictive in my old age. I accidentally picked up "Undead" thinking "Cool! Red Wizards ... lore on Thay!" After learning that it was actually "Kewl! Leads into the Spellplague ...." I have decided not to read it. If I can identify the corporate suit responsible for the new direction of the Realms, I will tear the front cover off and mail it to his attention along with a long letter detailing my distaste for his New Coke product.
Said letter will also mention that I will only buy more of their products (books included) if they return to Coke Classic and apologize by contracting Ed to write at least three more Volo's Guides which they will actually publish.
That would make 4e a _definite_ sell to me. Anything less would be negotiable. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 04:28:40
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I'm also of the "give it a year and see" group. It seems to me, from the hundred or so people I know (both on the internet and at home) that play D&D, about 45% are gonna give the new one a try, while another 45% are gonna stick with 3e (weather it be Paizo's version or whatever). Thats about ˝ and ˝ from what I can tell (I didn't actually keep a running tally). Out of the final 10%, about half of those are switching to some other system or game altogether, or are fed up and are not planning on playing P&P RPGs anymore.
The only thing I see occurring is that younger, newer gamers are more willing to go the "New & Improved" route, while the die-hard grognards are planning to "stay behind". My son is a perfect example - he is 19, and he plans on giving it a shot and running his own game (finally), and my 17 year old can't wait to try out his game.
As their father, I love them to death... but neither one of them has the attention span of a flea.
You see... I know, because I have a closet full of sporting equipment, karate gear, and hobby crap that they were 'into' for a few weeks and then lost interest.
Now I'm not saying ALL the 4e players are going to be like that, but its a sure bet that a lot of them will be, and if my rough estimate is correct, then half the people will continue playing in 4e, while the other half will move on to something different... or perhaps switch back (I see that happening as well - d20 is a tried and true system thats being going strong for eight years, and still has tons of support).
It will be interesting to see how WotC/Hasbro is going to handle this - I'm fairly certain they foresee the same thing I do, and thats probably where all this "One setting a Year" crap comes from. They are going after the baby-boomer kids with their sticky little fingers all over mom & dad's 'disposable income' - the same people who buy the latest Lego Sets, Bionicles, and Pokémon Cards for their "oh! Shiney! Gimmee, Gimmee!" Kids. Hasbro knows exactly how to keep these people coming back, and thats why D&D is the way it is now.
And the funny thing is, I STILL think 4e reminds me of OD&D in an odd sort of way - it's designed with little in the way of world-building and just good, old-fashioned hack & slash. I gamed that way for years, as did tons of other kids I played with growing up. Now, looking back with the wisdom of hindsight, I realize that the people like me who were looking for something 'deeper' stayed with the hobby, while the kids that "just wanted to kill s__t" stopped playing around 18. The great thing about kids, though - and something Hasbro is all too familiar with - is that they just keep COMING.
They aren't looking for people like most of us, who'll be playing into their forties and beyond; they want to catch the 12-17 group, which is constantly renewed with new blood... and new potential customers.
I think WotC/Hasbro are pretty slick, and they should do just fine.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 06:18:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They aren't looking for people like most of us, who'll be playing into their forties and beyond; they want to catch the 12-17 group, which is constantly renewed with new blood... and new potential customers.
I think WotC/Hasbro are pretty slick, and they should do just fine.
But you must admit that no version of the game has exactly gone looking for people like "most of us". We are a strange minority of people buying the game. It is a very small percentages of he fans from each edition that keeps on playing for years. To most players it is a short-time hobby more than a part of their lifestyle. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 13:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
To most players it is a short-time hobby more than a part of their lifestyle.
I wish Wizards would realize that RPGs don't have to be either of those -- cyclical childhood fads or lifetime fannish occupations -- just a medium like any other. |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 15:26:21
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| Well it seems to me that people like the "new" thing. For many new equals better or improved. And sometimes it is, other times it's just flashed as new to catch the eye and there really is no depth behind it. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 16:36:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I wish Wizards would realize that RPGs don't have to be either of those -- cyclical childhood fads or lifetime fannish occupations -- just a medium like any other.
Indeed, great point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 16:47:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I wish Wizards would realize that RPGs don't have to be either of those -- cyclical childhood fads or lifetime fannish occupations -- just a medium like any other.
Indeed, great point.
It could even be both...a medium for most and a fad for others.
To me of course its a medium  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 16:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They are going after the baby-boomer kids with their sticky little fingers all over mom & dad's 'disposable income' - the same people who buy the latest Lego Sets, Bionicles, and Pokémon Cards for their "oh! Shiney! Gimmee, Gimmee!" Kids.
I don't think that LEGO deserves to be on that list (though Bionicle, which you listed separately definitely does ). LEGOs have been a passion and a hobby of mine for as long as I can remember, and it never truly feels like Christmas if I do not at least get a small set. And I cannot wait to start my kids on LEGOs (when my wife and I finally decide to start having them that is). Now, I don't go and buy the $50+ sets every year, and maybe that is what you are talking about. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2008 : 23:30:58
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When I owned my costruction company, nearly all of my customers were 'well-to-do', and their boys (never girls!) always had those lego Sets. They'd be carefully put together sitting on a shelf somewhere where people could admire them, but no one ever played with them.
Is that what you do with yours?
I had to paint a room full of them once, and when i went to move them I had to take especial care because the (female) homeowner told me "It took me hours and hours to put all those together". I asked her if her child ever put any together; she said "Are you kidding? He's not even allowed to touch them!"
I think she glued them altogether for the couple of days they were all in her Dining Room - they seemed extra rigid when I had to put them all back.
People amuse me.
But seriously, aside from the random sets, what do you do with those theme-specific sets after you put them together? 
On Topic:
I have tons of experience with the 'instant gratification generation', and I see this new edition targeted directly at them. We must remember, Hasbro has NO interest in making people happy, only in making money - thats why they are in business in the first place. Unless our unhappiness directly effects their wallets, which I doubt, then we simply do not matter to them at all.
Only clowns are in the business of making people happy. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jul 2008 23:33:08 |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 22:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just imagine when they do this to D20 Modern. Your high-school dropout car mechanic will be just as adept at hacking as the computer engineering guy who graduated at 19 with a doctorate from MIT. And both of them would have to race to beat the stoner music store clerk, while trying to get into the NSA mainframe.
Having balanced classes doesn't mean every class is equally capable of doing the same exact thing as the other classes. They all still have their areas of expertise. What it means is that they're equally useful in different ways. A 30th-level Fighter is able to inflict a great deal of damage against a single target. He's such a bad-ass that he can strike an opponent unerringly, and deliver a lethal blow to the right spot. But unlike the Wizard, he can't hit up to 110 enemies with a single shot.
Like it or not, D&D is a game where you're supposed to use teamwork to accomplish your goals. To do that, you need party members who all fulfill a vital role within the adventuring party. If a class becomes less vital or downright expendable at cettain levels, then the game's not working the way it should be working. If you don't like that, then there're easy workarounds to that. Give certain classes a couple extra levels, for instance. Not to mention that there're plenty of RPG's which don't care at all about class balance. Rifts and Palladium Fantasy are two good examples of that. If class imbalance is your thing, then I suggest checking them out. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2008 : 23:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just imagine when they do this to D20 Modern. Your high-school dropout car mechanic will be just as adept at hacking as the computer engineering guy who graduated at 19 with a doctorate from MIT. And both of them would have to race to beat the stoner music store clerk, while trying to get into the NSA mainframe.
Having balanced classes doesn't mean every class is equally capable of doing the same exact thing as the other classes. They all still have their areas of expertise. What it means is that they're equally useful in different ways. A 30th-level Fighter is able to inflict a great deal of damage against a single target. He's such a bad-ass that he can strike an opponent unerringly, and deliver a lethal blow to the right spot. But unlike the Wizard, he can't hit up to 110 enemies with a single shot.
Like it or not, D&D is a game where you're supposed to use teamwork to accomplish your goals. To do that, you need party members who all fulfill a vital role within the adventuring party. If a class becomes less vital or downright expendable at cettain levels, then the game's not working the way it should be working. If you don't like that, then there're easy workarounds to that. Give certain classes a couple extra levels, for instance. Not to mention that there're plenty of RPG's which don't care at all about class balance. Rifts and Palladium Fantasy are two good examples of that. If class imbalance is your thing, then I suggest checking them out.
Why should I check out Palladium games when I have 3.5 and Pathfinder? Plus what is this balance business anyway? I mean seriously... if all men and women were equal we'd have no pverty and stuff... Also, in WoW there is a balance of sort, but a healer... err priest with healing focus... were to be attacked he won't last long, so that ain't balanced... let's make all characters equal, with close to the same opportunities, like in the original Diablo.
Sorry coulsn't help myself...
I don't like the way Wizards/Hasbro has basically shoved this new thing on everyone invalidating thousands of dollars of books in a heartbeat, this (to me) is not about 4e in general but the idea that if I were to start 4e and leave 3.5 behind (because according to them it isn't fun!) all those books would become very expensive fuel for some fireplace, because they are useless in 4e. With 2nd and 1st edition stuff, I could still use the ideas and spells and items in 3e... this complete seperation is what drove me away from Wizards/Hasbro and 4e, not the system (which might be good in its own way) itself. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2008 : 15:14:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I don't like the way Wizards/Hasbro has basically shoved this new thing on everyone invalidating thousands of dollars of books in a heartbeat, this (to me) is not about 4e in general but the idea that if I were to start 4e and leave 3.5 behind (because according to them it isn't fun!) all those books would become very expensive fuel for some fireplace, because they are useless in 4e. With 2nd and 1st edition stuff, I could still use the ideas and spells and items in 3e... this complete seperation is what drove me away from Wizards/Hasbro and 4e, not the system (which might be good in its own way) itself.
If you were to try out 4E rules, that wouldn't mean you could never use 3E rules ever again. :) And let's face it--4E was bound to come eventually. Some years down the road, 5E will arrive, as long as D&D is still around. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2008 : 15:21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Like it or not, D&D is a game where you're supposed to use teamwork to accomplish your goals. To do that, you need party members who all fulfill a vital role within the adventuring party. If a class becomes less vital or downright expendable at cettain levels, then the game's not working the way it should be working. If you don't like that, then there're easy workarounds to that. Give certain classes a couple extra levels, for instance. Not to mention that there're plenty of RPG's which don't care at all about class balance. Rifts and Palladium Fantasy are two good examples of that. If class imbalance is your thing, then I suggest checking them out.
D&D has always been a game where teamwork matters. . . I'm not sure where you get the idea that it didn't matter. I've also not seen this drastic difference in importance of certain character types in a particular game.
Is it the cleric that's supposed to be "useless" at certain points? Because I totally disagree. They might not swing like fighters, but they aren't slouches. They might not blast away like mages but their spells are very useful.
If it's a fighter at high levels, well, again I have to disagree. Sure the mage can blast away like a sherman on speed but if there's a high SR creature or something that can drop a few dispels then the mage is suddenly pretty useless.
And, as a DM (and a player really), I strive for party balance. I want all my players to have a good time and feel useful. Doesn't happen every game, mostly due to the fact that there's seven of them, but each of them has had their time in the spotlight.
I think that's part of my problem with 4E, it claims to fix all sorts of things that I never had a problem with. I also pretty much believe (with little proof, so I'm more than willing to be wrong) that it increases the speed at which characters gain power, which is something that I don't like about 3.5 (I liked 2Es speed of progression).
But, in the end, different strokes for different folks. I'm glad your enjoying 4E and wish you well with it. Perhaps someday I'll even play some 4E, I'm sure I'd like it fine but I'm going to stay more focused on 3.5. |
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
