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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 06:29:02
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| Same here Hawkins, with the only difference that I won't bother with the FRCG either, as they have decided to cut Ed's lore from it. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 07:45:20
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quote:
If it has been removed, what other powers do 'level-draining' undead recieve instead?
A lot of them drain Healing Surges. Wights, for instance, have an At-Will attack which inflicts necrotic damage and drains one Healing Surge with each hit (the tougher ones getting additional benefit from that attack). Others, like Wraiths, inflict status effects like making the target Weakened (you inflict half damage until you make a saving throw), and any humanoids they kill rise as Wraiths. And vampires, of course, have their Blood Drain.
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p.s. Oh, and everyone? Venger is right about EVERYTHING. ... well... not everything. I don't think he should kill Dungeon Master. But yeah, that's one smart demilich befouling utterevil.
I'm a Cambion Warlock, not a Demilich. You're confusing me with Skeletor. He's the Lich, not I (And Mum-Ra, of course, is a Mummy). And frankly, your defense of that grotesque little gnome Dungeon Master sickens me. Rest assured, you've made 'The List'.
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I mean an attack which does 6d6+3 dam? Even if it's only once per day it seems a bit much at first level anyway
Seems like a lot when compared to prior editions, but as you mentioned, monsters in this edition have more hit points. A Kobold Skirmisher, which is a level 1 standard monster, can possibly survive getting hit by that (assuming the player rolls average damage or less). |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 08:26:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
... as they have decided to cut Ed's lore from it.
What??? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 10:45:34
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| I'm confused. What can we expect to find in the new FRCS that will be by Ed? I thought he was providing much of the information, not just one region. Thanks in advance for any clarification. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 11:17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Seems like a lot when compared to prior editions, but as you mentioned, monsters in this edition have more hit points. A Kobold Skirmisher, which is a level 1 standard monster, can possibly survive getting hit by that (assuming the player rolls average damage or less).
Which provokes the question why they did that in the first place? To create an illusion of a more powerful first level character? If that kobold skirmisher levels out 6d6 in return, my 4E character, despite more HP, might be dead in as short a time as before ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 15:24:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Which provokes the question why they did that in the first place? To create an illusion of a more powerful first level character? If that kobold skirmisher levels out 6d6 in return, my 4E character, despite more HP, might be dead in as short a time as before ...
It seems a lot like pinball games, the newer the pinball game the more likely you'll be getting tens of millions of points, vs the older games, where you're more likely to get tens of thousands of points.
Bigger numbers are more exciting.
Though, to be less snarky, having a larger number range allows for more precise measurement. So the difference between levels of ability are easier to measure (ie. difficulty of encounters can be measured easier).
Personally, the large numbers tend to turn me off. If first level is 6d6 then I'd imagine 5th would be 8-10d6 and 10th to be 12-15d6 or whatever. As a DM I prefer to have smaller numbers vs larger because the size of the numbers really are irrelevant, it's the disparity between the numbers that has meaning (in easier terms, it's not how powerful the characters are that matters, it's the difference between power in the party members).
But that is just a personal preference. I don't pretend that either way is "better".  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 23:47:51
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| These numbers have been inflating for a long time in MUDs and other computer games; the root game is just catching up. Though not in terms of character levels, at least . . . |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 07:36:25
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quote:
Which provokes the question why they did that in the first place? To create an illusion of a more powerful first level character? If that kobold skirmisher levels out 6d6 in return, my 4E character, despite more HP, might be dead in as short a time as before ...
The 1st-level monsters don't do that much damage in return, though. All the level 1 monsters in the MM do the following...
1d4+4/1d6+4
1d4+3/1d6+3
1d6+2 (Filth Fever)
2d4+2/3d6 (Recharge 5+)
1d6+4
4 (5 with Combat Advantage)
4
1d8+2/1d6+2
1d8 (+1d6 with Combat Advantage)
1d6+4/1 (and steals something)
1d6+3 (Grabs and 5 Lightning damage at start of its turn if target is still held)/1d4+3 (Ongoing 5 Poison damage and is Immobilized)
So characters won't drop in one hit at least, even if the monster crits. As for why toughening them up, it allows for tougher (and more) interesting monsters at 1st-level, as well as a greater number of opponents. For instance, in 3E a challenge for four 1st-level PC's would be four run-of-the-mill Kobolds. Now you can have four Kobold Skirmishers and/or Slingers, which're more interesting then run of the mill Kobolds in that they've got tactics above-and-beyond the average Kobold. Or you can have 16 of their 4E equivalents, the Kobold Minion. Or you can mix it up (One Skirmisher, one Slinger, eight Minions). |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
765 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 07:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
So characters won't drop in one hit at least, even if the monster crits.
Could you explain why? I seem to recall the new Crit is on a natural 20 only and always does double damage. Does a first level PC have more than 16 HP then?
Edit: Actually, make that: does a first level PC have more than 36 HP then? (since I miss-read that one 3d6 attack that is possible) |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Edited by - Kyrene on 25 Jun 2008 07:57:31 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 09:17:53
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You see, that is one thing which, as a DM, get's me thinking. Why do PCs get all the sweeties, yet monsters apparently draw the short straws? Because the heroes are "special"? Well, they always were, but now they are "über-special" and that IMHO is quite annoying. I also do not want to swamp them with monsters and the like to get a "fair challenge" out of an encounter.
As I said before, when checking the drow (for obvious reasons) in the MM, I was instantly asking where the "spell" list of that high priestess lass was? She's got a handful of powers, but honestly, if I don't add the spells she should have at her level, she is not a priestess but some sort of hexblade-like powered-up fighter. So if I want a real drow priestess, I'd have to double-check another couple of books (PHB for spells, DMG for XP/challenge rating changes). Not exactly making it easier, at least with these first rulebooks. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 14:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Could you explain why? I seem to recall the new Crit is on a natural 20 only and always does double damage. Does a first level PC have more than 16 HP then?
Actually, the new Crit is that on a natural 20 (or on a 19 if you have the right ability, but only if it results in a hit), anyways, a critical hit always deals MAXIMUM damage (not double). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 14:05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
So characters won't drop in one hit at least, even if the monster crits.
Could you explain why? I seem to recall the new Crit is on a natural 20 only and always does double damage. Does a first level PC have more than 16 HP then?
Edit: Actually, make that: does a first level PC have more than 36 HP then? (since I miss-read that one 3d6 attack that is possible)
There were some 4E character sheets someone posted a few months back... The characters, all 1st level, had between 20 and 33 hit points. And healing surges, which are effectively more hit points.
I honestly believe that part of the point of 4E is to make characters nearly unkillable, unless their players are incredibly stupid -- and then, they still might be able to get by. It's another of the "features" they lifted from MMOs. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jun 2008 14:06:40 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 14:14:24
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| From playing 4E, I noticed that the healing surges, especially at 1st level, serve you better between encounters, as you cannot actually heal as much as it seems. There were also two near death instances, both for different reasons. The first one was the Dragonborn Paladin kept receiving lucky shots from the monsters and he was down to -8 hit points. THe other time was when the rogue scouted ahead and got surrounded, and then the wizard got trapped and the Paladin was behind (party split up too much in the battle) so it was a case of very bad decisions and bad dice rolls. So yeah, you have as much chance of dying I would say. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 15:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
So characters won't drop in one hit at least, even if the monster crits. As for why toughening them up, it allows for tougher (and more) interesting monsters at 1st-level, as well as a greater number of opponents. For instance, in 3E a challenge for four 1st-level PC's would be four run-of-the-mill Kobolds. Now you can have four Kobold Skirmishers and/or Slingers, which're more interesting then run of the mill Kobolds in that they've got tactics above-and-beyond the average Kobold. Or you can have 16 of their 4E equivalents, the Kobold Minion. Or you can mix it up (One Skirmisher, one Slinger, eight Minions).
4 "run of the mill" kobolds can employ a bunch of different tactics and should. 3 Kobold warriors and 1 kobold adept could be entertaining. 4 Kobold warriors with ranged weapons and cover, 2 warriors and 2 adepts, 2 warriors and 1 2nd level adept.
The only real difference I can see is that the combat will last longer (due to the increased hp) and the PCs have a larger chance to die.
I mean, I could be wrong, I don't know the details of 4E so I'm not sure if I'm just making incorrect assumptions but to say that there's a lack of tactics available in 3E doesn't fit with my experience. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 15:56:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
These numbers have been inflating for a long time in MUDs and other computer games; the root game is just catching up. Though not in terms of character levels, at least . . .
Indeed. And, to be fair, it has been happening, it's just been a slow crawl. 4E just seems like a pretty large jump.
When I was a wee lad big numbers impressed me, now, not so much. (aside from the ability to more accurately measure relative power, which I'm not terribly concerned about) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:04:26
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| I've probably mentioned this before, but I honestly don't think it's a bad thing that it's now harder (if not impossible) for level 1 characters to die in one hit...if the main goal of a D&D game is actually fun, that is, rather than realism. I just don't see how it's fun when a player's nascent character is sent to the afterlife so soon after they were created. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Jun 2008 16:08:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:08:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
From playing 4E, I noticed that the healing surges, especially at 1st level, serve you better between encounters, as you cannot actually heal as much as it seems. There were also two near death instances, both for different reasons. The first one was the Dragonborn Paladin kept receiving lucky shots from the monsters and he was down to -8 hit points. THe other time was when the rogue scouted ahead and got surrounded, and then the wizard got trapped and the Paladin was behind (party split up too much in the battle) so it was a case of very bad decisions and bad dice rolls. So yeah, you have as much chance of dying I would say.
Really? PCs now have more hit points, monsters can't hit as hard, and PCs can automatically remove debuffs and heal themselves after every encounter -- and that's not even involving the cleric. And there is as much chance of dying?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There were some 4E character sheets someone posted a few months back... The characters, all 1st level, had between 20 and 33 hit points. And healing surges, which are effectively more hit points.
I honestly believe that part of the point of 4E is to make characters nearly unkillable, unless their players are incredibly stupid -- and then, they still might be able to get by. It's another of the "features" they lifted from MMOs.
On that note, I finally got round to reading a dead-tree version of the 4e PHB (I was given one, and it makes useful reading whilst being...err, occupied in the small room of contemplation and illumination), and there was something about it that jumped out big time at me:
The whole thing is much more algorithmic. Reading the PHB is like reading an incredibly detailed specification/requirements document for a computer game (whither this be a CCG or MMO game, I'm not sure yet).
I'm probably not the first to mention this, but I suspect Hasbro are a little bit jealous of Blizzard and decided to move in that direction. Could we be seeing a 4e MMO soon? Could 5e actually be an MMO?
Now, I will state up that from Hasbro's PoV there's nothing at all wrong with this, but from my POV, as a Joe Bloggs with a stupidly large collection of previous DnD material, it leaves a very bad taste in the mouth. If WOTC had said, "here's 4e, but we're leaving Faerun untouched, go play with it" then I don't think the sense of betrayal I feel would have been as much.
Maybe I'm the bigger fool for investing so much emotional attachment into Faerun...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:11:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I've probably mentioned this before, but I honestly don't think it's a bad thing that it's now harder (if not impossible) for level 1 characters to die in one hit...if the main goal of a D&D game is actually fun, that is, rather than realism. I just don't see how it's fun when a player's nascent character is sent to the afterlife so soon after they were created.
I don't favor killing off PCs, even at 1st level. I like things that keep them alive longer. But at the same time, I don't expect them to breeze thru everything, and I want them to be vulnerable to their own terminal stupidity, if necessary.
We've gone from PCs being fragile at 1st level to being overly tough at 1st level. There is a middle ground, but D&D Extreme ain't it. WotC went from one extreme to the other. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We've gone from PCs being fragile at 1st level to being overly tough at 1st level. There is a middle ground, but D&D Extreme ain't it. WotC went from one extreme to the other.
I prefer the term "D&D SP4" (D&D Service Pack 4) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't favor killing off PCs, even at 1st level. I like things that keep them alive longer. But at the same time, I don't expect them to breeze thru everything, and I want them to be vulnerable to their own terminal stupidity, if necessary.
We've gone from PCs being fragile at 1st level to being overly tough at 1st level. There is a middle ground, but D&D Extreme ain't it. WotC went from one extreme to the other.
Here's what I've heard--mind you, I haven't actually gotten to try out the new rules yet (oh well!). 4E is supposed to bring the PCs to more "middle ground"--I think that's what the designers mean when they keep saying that the classes are more "balanced". It used to be that wizards were both fragile and not even that magically powerful in the beginning of the game, but were tremendously powerful at the higher levels. Fighters were the toughest characters at the lower levels, but the higher levels they couldn't match the spellcasters in power. What the 4E rules have done (for better or for worse, you decide) is they've made all the classes about equally powerful at all levels, and they all have a lot of options, as well.
I've also read that it's not impossible to die in this game, even though the PCs have been made much hardier. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:31:18
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| As far as having lots of monsters, if you use Minions to reach the target XP needed for an encounter, which is 4 minions instead of 1 standard version of a monster for the same xp ammount, its ok because those minions have 1 hp each. A solo or boss monster might have over a hundred hp at level 1, but those daily powers that deal lots of damage are for these boses usually. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
From playing 4E, I noticed that the healing surges, especially at 1st level, serve you better between encounters, as you cannot actually heal as much as it seems. There were also two near death instances, both for different reasons. The first one was the Dragonborn Paladin kept receiving lucky shots from the monsters and he was down to -8 hit points. THe other time was when the rogue scouted ahead and got surrounded, and then the wizard got trapped and the Paladin was behind (party split up too much in the battle) so it was a case of very bad decisions and bad dice rolls. So yeah, you have as much chance of dying I would say.
Really? PCs now have more hit points, monsters can't hit as hard, and PCs can automatically remove debuffs and heal themselves after every encounter -- and that's not even involving the cleric. And there is as much chance of dying?
Yes but they have a limited ammount of healing anyways and you can only use one extended rest per day, so if you are deep in a dungeon and its several days up (say, a deep level of Undermountain) and your only option is to sleep down there, risking an encounter, you can be in serious trouble. Its all in how things are presented by the DM, and dice can go against the players' favor. Some monsters actually CAN hit as hard, some even harder. Also dice roll fudging can play a part, but the DM I played 4E with was rolling out in the open so there wasn't any of that. We saw the critical hits coming our way  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 17:31:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
From playing 4E, I noticed that the healing surges, especially at 1st level, serve you better between encounters, as you cannot actually heal as much as it seems. There were also two near death instances, both for different reasons. The first one was the Dragonborn Paladin kept receiving lucky shots from the monsters and he was down to -8 hit points. THe other time was when the rogue scouted ahead and got surrounded, and then the wizard got trapped and the Paladin was behind (party split up too much in the battle) so it was a case of very bad decisions and bad dice rolls. So yeah, you have as much chance of dying I would say.
Really? PCs now have more hit points, monsters can't hit as hard, and PCs can automatically remove debuffs and heal themselves after every encounter -- and that's not even involving the cleric. And there is as much chance of dying?
Yes but they have a limited ammount of healing anyways and you can only use one extended rest per day, so if you are deep in a dungeon and its several days up (say, a deep level of Undermountain) and your only option is to sleep down there, risking an encounter, you can be in serious trouble. Its all in how things are presented by the DM, and dice can go against the players' favor. Some monsters actually CAN hit as hard, some even harder. Also dice roll fudging can play a part, but the DM I played 4E with was rolling out in the open so there wasn't any of that. We saw the critical hits coming our way
Yeah, but they have much more healing than in any previous edition -- and that's on top of having at least 2-3 times more hit points at 1st level than in any previous version of the game. And any debuff the PC gets hit with is gone at the end of the encounter -- which could be less than a minute of game time, and certainly before they walk into the next room and the nastybads that are in it.
And any sufficiently large dungeon is going to require the PCs to stop and rest. However, considering the self-healing and automatic debuffs, there is less need for PCs to do that than before. And again, that's before factoring in the clerical healing. Some regard that as an improvement, but I dislike the idea that a dungeon that's tough before 4E is a cakewalk in 4E.
The fickleness of the Dice Gods -- something we've all encountered -- isn't changed by D&D Extreme. Any edition of any roleplaying game that relies on dice is also going to rely on the mood of the Dice Gods. I've gotten a critical hit on a called shot with an arrow in 2E AD&D, and I've missed with 3 weapons at point blank range in BattleTech, only needing to roll better than a 7! So I don't really see how the actual rolls of the dice are going to be improved in D&D Extreme.
Do the rules specifically state only one extended rest per day? Because a rest period of 6 hours could easily happen twice in a day.
Everything I've read about the 4E rules makes me think it's specifically designed to make it tough to kill PCs. And while I don't want PCs to be invulnerable, I do want there to be some risk. I have a problem with the risk being removed. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 18:23:01
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So, I was just reading through a copy of the 4e DMG, and this struck me as curious:
quote:
Dungeon Master's Guide v4, pg 6
What do you need to play D&D?
What You Need to Play
* A place to play
* Rulebooks
* Dice
* Paper and pencils
* Battle grid or D&D Dungeon Tiles
* Dungeon Master’s Screen
* D&D Miniatures
Useful Additions
* Character sheets
* Snacks
* Laptop computer, PDA, smart phone, or digital camera
* D&D Insider
The reason I say I found this curious, is because over and over again on the WotC boards, they have stated that you will not need miniatures to play D&D 4e. But, here, in the final publication, they state that you do need miniatures to play. I would have probably formatted the lists this way:
What You Need to Play
* A place to play
* Rulebooks
* Dice
* Paper and pencils
* Character sheets
* Dungeon Master’s Screen
Useful Additions
* Battle grid or D&D Dungeon Tiles
* D&D Miniatures
* Snacks
* Laptop computer, PDA, smart phone, or digital camera
* D&D Insider
P.S. I know that despite what they have published in this book, you do not need miniatures to play D&D 4e. Also, I did not buy 4e if you are wondering, I am borrowing a copy so I have time to read it and decide for myself if I like it or not (though my initial impressions are "not"). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 18:43:29
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Well met
I've never been a fan of using miniatures in an RPG and have never done so myself. However, 4e is certainly geared towards using them for combat. Ranges etc. are listed in "squares" for use on the map sheets etc. The way combat is written definately requires the use of miniatures (or squared paper and markers, at the very least).
I think I recall that there is a chart for movement, however, which converts squares to actual distance. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 19:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
So, I was just reading through a copy of the 4e DMG, and this struck me as curious:
quote:
Dungeon Master's Guide v4, pg 6
What do you need to play D&D?
What You Need to Play
* A place to play
* Rulebooks
* Dice
* Paper and pencils
* Battle grid or D&D Dungeon Tiles
* Dungeon Master’s Screen
* D&D Miniatures
Useful Additions
* Character sheets
* Snacks
* Laptop computer, PDA, smart phone, or digital camera
* D&D Insider
The reason I say I found this curious, is because over and over again on the WotC boards, they have stated that you will not need miniatures to play D&D 4e. But, here, in the final publication, they state that you do need miniatures to play. I would have probably formatted the lists this way:
What You Need to Play
* A place to play
* Rulebooks
* Dice
* Paper and pencils
* Character sheets
* Dungeon Master’s Screen
Useful Additions
* Battle grid or D&D Dungeon Tiles
* D&D Miniatures
* Snacks
* Laptop computer, PDA, smart phone, or digital camera
* D&D Insider
P.S. I know that despite what they have published in this book, you do not need miniatures to play D&D 4e. Also, I did not buy 4e if you are wondering, I am borrowing a copy so I have time to read it and decide for myself if I like it or not (though my initial impressions are "not").
Character sheets aren't considered necessary?!? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 20:36:33
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Purchased character sheets are useful (sometimes) but certainly not necessary to play the game. I do not every recall using an actual charater sheet, just hand wrote them.
Oh never needed minis either. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 20:45:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Everything I've read about the 4E rules makes me think it's specifically designed to make it tough to kill PCs. And while I don't want PCs to be invulnerable, I do want there to be some risk. I have a problem with the risk being removed.
I think the problem here, is that the rules play very differently to how they read. I havn't played any higher levels yet, but at low levels the PCs are still vulnerable. The only apparent difference is that I havn't seen a PC go down on the first hit yet, which happened alot in previous editions. |
“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 20:49:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Do the rules specifically state only one extended rest per day? Because a rest period of 6 hours could easily happen twice in a day.
quote:
4E Player's Handbook Pg.263
Once per Day: After you finish an extended rest, you have to wait 12 hours before you can begin another one.
There is also extended information on sleeping for this. (you must sleep at least 6 hours per day to gain benefits of an extended rest ex: if you take more than one extended rest in a day, at least one must consist of sleep while others can be simply no strenuous activity for 6 hours)
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
Edited by - Alisttair on 25 Jun 2008 20:51:38 |
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
