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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 09 May 2008 : 23:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Nah, the beta period is free.
Thanks for the clarification. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2008 : 21:32:35
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Okay, I just read the announcement, and I'm not sure if it is a joke or not, according to this -
quote:
The client-based applications, including the D&D Character Builder and D&D Game Table, will not be part of the initial beta release period, but will be added as they become available.
It sounds like EXACTLY what we've been looking at for the last few months, so what are they announcing here? 
More of that "Headless Zhent" goodness? 
Maybe we'll see a Shaarlock Holnes story called The Hound of the Cormanthordales or some such. 
Seriously though, what does this Beta have that the Alpha didn't? Also, I noticed when someone PM'd me that now I have to look at that 'Gleemax' atrocity to read my PMs over there... looks like I'm going to be ignoring a LOT of PMs from now on.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 17:47:44
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I just stumbled about this today, and I don't know if anybody has mentioned it, yet: the new 4th ed. Draconomicon will consist of many parts. Draconomicon I will be about chromatic dragons. From the description:
“Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons describes several varieties of dragons, including red, blue, green, black, and white dragons, as well as three new chromatic dragons.
This sourcebook gives details of each dragon’s powers, tactics, myths, lairs, servitors, and more. In addition, this book provides new information about draconic nations and organizations and how chromatic dragons fit into the D&D game. Wide-ranging story and campaign elements in the book give DMs ready-to-play material that is easily incorporated into a game, including adventure hooks, quests, and pregenerated treasure hoards.”
I am not very happy about the decision to divide the Draconomicon. The old (3rd ed.) version is a magnificent work, and I am not sure that I am willing to buy a row of books - especially considering that the new lore presented there will most likely annoy me. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 18:34:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
I just stumbled about this today, and I don't know if anybody has mentioned it, yet: the new 4th ed. Draconomicon will consist of many parts. Draconomicon I will be about chromatic dragons. From the description:
“Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons describes several varieties of dragons, including red, blue, green, black, and white dragons, as well as three new chromatic dragons.
This sourcebook gives details of each dragon’s powers, tactics, myths, lairs, servitors, and more. In addition, this book provides new information about draconic nations and organizations and how chromatic dragons fit into the D&D game. Wide-ranging story and campaign elements in the book give DMs ready-to-play material that is easily incorporated into a game, including adventure hooks, quests, and pregenerated treasure hoards.”
I am not very happy about the decision to divide the Draconomicon. The old (3rd ed.) version is a magnificent work, and I am not sure that I am willing to buy a row of books - especially considering that the new lore presented there will most likely annoy me.
Mother of Lurue, another book on dragons named Draconomicon?!? Wasn't two enough? Don't these people have even a shred of creativity left?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 May 2008 18:35:05 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 19:04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
I just stumbled about this today, and I don't know if anybody has mentioned it, yet: the new 4th ed. Draconomicon will consist of many parts. Draconomicon I will be about chromatic dragons. From the description:
“Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons describes several varieties of dragons, including red, blue, green, black, and white dragons, as well as three new chromatic dragons.
This sourcebook gives details of each dragon’s powers, tactics, myths, lairs, servitors, and more. In addition, this book provides new information about draconic nations and organizations and how chromatic dragons fit into the D&D game. Wide-ranging story and campaign elements in the book give DMs ready-to-play material that is easily incorporated into a game, including adventure hooks, quests, and pregenerated treasure hoards.”
I am not very happy about the decision to divide the Draconomicon. The old (3rd ed.) version is a magnificent work, and I am not sure that I am willing to buy a row of books - especially considering that the new lore presented there will most likely annoy me.
Mother of Lurue, another book on dragons named Draconomicon?!? Wasn't two enough? Don't these people have even a shred of creativity left?
LOL Wooly, you should read my livejournal |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 19:05:14
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I thought you were going to say "shred of decency", but in this case, I supppose it amounts to the same thing.
Obviously, they have NO pride, and have figured out that by paddding the books even further, they get to split them and charge us for them TWICE. 
You know, I bought the original 2e one, because it was FR, but I never bothered to shell out for the 3e version. After all, just how many times are you really throwing Dragon encounters at your players? Back when the whole family tree took up a few pages in the original MM, I never had a problem using them.
How on god's Earth can they justify two books on a monster you rarely use, unless they think you should be slaughtering dragons all the time, which will eventually turn the Dragons into Orcs - just silly Canon-fodder to throw at your players.
Dragons should be a story-ender, NOT a random encounter, so this is just a blatant example of milking the cow for all it's worth. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 May 2008 19:08:04 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 20:27:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How on god's Earth can they justify two books on a monster you rarely use, unless they think you should be slaughtering dragons all the time, which will eventually turn the Dragons into Orcs - just silly Canon-fodder to throw at your players.
The probably just use the canned response they've had to use for all sorts of other product.
As a for instance, Faiths and Pantheons states at the beginning that the Gods themselves aren't nearly as important as the churches of those Gods and then goes on to devote most of the book to the stats of Gods.
Or the Fiendish Codex I and II, they state "Demon Lords should be the end of epic quests, etc etc" and then stat out all the Demon Lords and just give lip service to the cults and servitors.
Anyhow, I'm just bitter. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 20:29:59
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And there is no indication that there will be only two parts. After metallic dragons (II) there can be a volume about gem dragons (III), extraplanar dragons (IV), dragons of the Underdark (V), heavy metal dragons (VI), epic dragons (VII)...
The sky is the limit. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 20:34:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
And there is no indication that there will be only two parts. After metallic dragons (II) there can be a volume about gem dragons (III), extraplanar dragons (IV), dragons of the Underdark (V), heavy metal dragons (VI), epic dragons (VII)...
The sky is the limit.
Heavy Metal Dragons...
the Judas Priest dragon
the Black Sabbath dragon
the Iron Maiden dragon
the Metallica dragon
the Megadeth dragon
yea, that would be kinda cool  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2008 : 20:46:01
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I've always found Dragons to be excellent movers and shakers and actors behind the scenes. This is why I found a lot of the second edition monster manual entries and supplements like the Draconomicron useful as they provided insight into draconic/other monster culture, behaviours, society, diet, psychology.
To be honest, I tended to find the Combat: section in the old monster manual sections the least interesting unless it made some interesting comments on how the creature would behave in a way other than a straight up knock them down type fight. It made it much easier to use many different creatures in non-combat roles. It seems that by and large non-combat "monster" design has been left by the wayside and more freedom given to the DM with less consistency of behaviour by certain species being one of the results, good or bad. |
Edited by - Caedwyr on 16 May 2008 20:46:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2008 : 20:48:18
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But TWO (or more) seprate volumes dedicated to a rarely encountered creature? The 3e one was fine, although I don't use Dragons often enough to warrant it, but more then one book about a single creature is silly... and YES, all of the dragon sub-species are still of one race.
Then again, the varous DotU books are a good example of books overdone on a single sub-race.
The last time TSR tried this, with their 'Creature Arcana' series, it failed (although they were very good, people just couldn't justify the purchase in most cases). I really don't want WotC to get used to selling us one monster at a time, or worse, one sud-race at a time. 
@Mace - maybe they will team-up with the new elemental Giants, the "Monsters of Rock". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 May 2008 18:04:17 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 02:25:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But TWO (or more) seprate volumes dedicated to a rarely encountered creature? The 3e one was fine, although I don't use Dragons often enough to warrant it, but more then one book about a single creature is silly... and YES, all of the dragon sub-species are still of one race.
I think I know the rationale behind that.
The preview books constantly talked about how the dragon is THE iconic monster of D&D.
The other possible reason is that they really DO want people to use dragons more often in the game. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 04:56:22
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Not all that sure about how design tean views Dragon slaying, however it clearly was a trademark of fantasy fiction. The Knights (sometimes less then Knights) killing a Dragon was the best one could do.
I am sure there will be new players that want to kill a Dragon, but alas D&D has evolved mosters that Dragons fear. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 07:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The last time TSR tried this, with their 'Creature Arcana' series, it failed (although they were very good, people just couldn't justify the purchase in most cases). I really don't want WotC to get used to selling us one monster at a time, or worse, on sud-race at a time.
That would be perfect for me, but I agree that it would not exactly be the economical choice. And you always have the Slayers Handbooks from Mongoose. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 14:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Not all that sure about how design tean views Dragon slaying, however it clearly was a trademark of fantasy fiction. The Knights (sometimes less then Knights) killing a Dragon was the best one could do.
I am sure there will be new players that want to kill a Dragon, but alas D&D has evolved mosters that Dragons fear.
You know, the way most DMs and players handle dragon-slaying is simply wrong. I have had so many players tell me how their tenth-level paladin (or something similar) defeated a red dragon by himself... And I've often responded with "that wouldn't have happened if I was running the dragon." That usually gets me a confused look, along with some variation on "What do you mean?"
The fiction and descriptions of dragons always emphasize not only their size, but also their intelligence and cunning. And yet it seems that most DMs run dragons like very large, dumb animals, making them easy prey for even a mid-level party.
If I was running the dragon, I'd send even high-level parties running, unless they were very careful and planned everything out well in advance. Enormous critters with long lifespans, magic, and an intelligence level on par with -- if not exceeding -- the intelligence of the most intelligent human/demihuman races should be played as nothing less.
Another minor thing that's always bugged me about dragons: they are always lounging around on mounds and mounds of treasure. And yet, going by the treasure tables, there should only be enough coinage to mound into a small pillow. Even 100,000 gold coins isn't going to go that far in supporting a critter 100 feet long. It'd be like a human trying to sleep on a roll of pennies. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 15:01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The fiction and descriptions of dragons always emphasize not only their size, but also their intelligence and cunning. And yet it seems that most DMs run dragons like very large, dumb animals, making them easy prey for even a mid-level party.
Unfortunately, the preview material did paint the picture of chromatic dragons being more "animal-like" in this edition--not so much evil, but dangerous the way wild animals are. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 15:41:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Unfortunately, the preview material did paint the picture of chromatic dragons being more "animal-like" in this edition--not so much evil, but dangerous the way wild animals are.
And here we have a point that I don't like at all. Even evil dragons don't deserve such a treatment by the designers. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 15:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Unfortunately, the preview material did paint the picture of chromatic dragons being more "animal-like" in this edition--not so much evil, but dangerous the way wild animals are.
And here we have a point that I don't like at all. Even evil dragons don't deserve such a treatment by the designers.
Yet, this basically takes its pointers from MMO stuff. A dragon is a monster, monsters are there to kill. I've never seen a boss-mob in EQ or WoW that, when engagaed, target the healers and damage dealers first, something I would have done in an RPG. If an intelligent monster sees some dude casting a cure spell, this person will be the primary target. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 16:58:33
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Chris Sims, yesterday, on ENworld, clarified WOTC's stance in the discussion about evil gods in 4e in the PHB/DMG..
"Evil gods are described briefly in the PH and detailed in the DMG. Contrary to limiting player options, it gives the DM the option to go by a default assumption that PCs don't worship evil deities without "over-enforcing" the point. (Most D&D games involve heroic PCs, at least as good as the Han Solo who shot first, not villainous ones.) The DM has all the info needed for evil paladins, whether a player ever creates one or not. If a DM wants PCs to have access to evil gods, it's easy enough to do.
The idea that common folk might see evil gods as unaligned is a story issue for a DM to decide, and one we played on in places such as Mulmaster in FR. The presentation of the gods in the DMG makes it plain what they really are—evil or worse.
Also, can someone who thinks he or she doesn't like the alignment system tell me where the line is between neutral good and chaotic good? Lawful evil and neutral evil? I have a hard time drawing those lines definitively." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 May 2008 16:59:59 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 17:25:24
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And on that note I'm going to break my silence about discussing 4e and say: I don't truely understand WOTC's reasoning to cut the alignment system so that there are only 5 alignments now. We have LG, G, Unaligned, E, LE. Least thats what it looks like to me in the thread I'm reading.
Weird.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 17:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And on that note I'm going to break my silence about discussing 4e and say: I don't truely understand WOTC's reasoning to cut the alignment system so that there are only 5 alignments now. We have LG, G, Unaligned, E, LE. Least thats what it looks like to me in the thread I'm reading.
Weird....
I just don't understand the logic of WOTC |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 18:24:58
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I don't mind that, even if it does mean D&D is moving even further from its roots. They have just assumed that 'Chaos' and 'Neutral' are much the same thing (you don't know which way they will swing).
Its going to wreak havok when they re-do Planescape, though - which they've already announced, if I'm not mistaken.
As far as Dragons go, I've been playing them (theoreticlly - I've yet to 'do' a Dragon encounter) pretty much as WotC has changed them. It has been established for a long time now, in FR canon, that not every chromatic is evil, and that not every metalic is good, and the two often join forces (Elminster's Daughter being a recent example). For the Core world (thinking of GH here), the MM Dragons were fine, but I had always felt that FR was more about 'shades of grey', rather then black & white.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
That would be perfect for me, but I agree that it would not exactly be the economical choice. And you always have the Slayers Handbooks from Mongoose.
Very True.
I have a couple of those Slayer's guides, and I think that having the option of purchasing a book about a creature type you plan to 'spotlight' is excellent - and can be done by small companies who don't need to sell the number of books WotC does.
In the case of WotC, their books are more often regarded as 'must haves', so if you want to run an Orc encounter, but don't own THEIR Orc Book, you're handicapped. To put it another way - no one expects you to have a 3rd party book about a creature (its more of a pleasant surprise), but if such a book is released by WotC, then you WILL be expected to have the CANON source about a creature you are high-lighting.
Case in point - I own only the 3rd party books that interested me, but I own quite a few 3e core books that I'll never use.
I think this more specific type of information should only be done by smaller companies - I just don't see WotC doing them as beneficial to us.
Like I said, the Arcana series of books were excellent, but I didn't buy them when they came out... just how often were my parties going to fight Sahuagin? I have recently bought them all as PDFs from Paizo, though, because for $4, who cares if I ever really use them.
I won't feel that way about multiple $30 Dragon books. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 May 2008 18:26:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2008 : 22:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As far as Dragons go, I've been playing them (theoreticlly - I've yet to 'do' a Dragon encounter) pretty much as WotC has changed them. It has been established for a long time now, in FR canon, that not every chromatic is evil, and that not every metalic is good, and the two often join forces (Elminster's Daughter being a recent example). For the Core world (thinking of GH here), the MM Dragons were fine, but I had always felt that FR was more about 'shades of grey', rather then black & white.
Oh, that part doesn't bother me. The thing that gets me is that stat-wise and description-wise, dragons have always been listed as being far more intelligent than most DMs play them.
And while I don't mind having oddballs for each alignment, I want those to be the exception, not the rule. The "no common alignment per draconic color" thing was one of the elements of Eber-whatsit that I have never liked. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2008 : 01:32:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And on that note I'm going to break my silence about discussing 4e and say: I don't truely understand WOTC's reasoning to cut the alignment system so that there are only 5 alignments now. We have LG, G, Unaligned, E, LE. Least thats what it looks like to me in the thread I'm reading.
Weird....
That is weird...I don't understand why they left in LG and LE, but ditched the other extreme alignments. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2008 : 01:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't mind that, even if it does mean D&D is moving even further from its roots. They have just assumed that 'Chaos' and 'Neutral' are much the same thing (you don't know which way they will swing).
Where? Link please? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2008 : 04:16:57
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| The alignments are LG, G, U, E, CE |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2008 : 05:35:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its going to wreak havok when they re-do Planescape, though - which they've already announced, if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah, its like a cruel joke inflicted upon Planescape fans by Asmodius or the dark powers of Ravenloft.  |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2008 : 06:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And while I don't mind having oddballs for each alignment, I want those to be the exception, not the rule.
Indeed, there have been always exceptions to the rule, even gold dragons who are not LG. Think of the Druid Dragon in the High Forest, Aerosclughpalar, who is N, which is quite unusual for a gold.  |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
