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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 22:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by GS
Do we really need Sea Elves and Merfolk and Tritons and Shalarin? Some will say yes, but in my opinion sea elves and merfolk are just elves and humans with the “sea” template added. Can’t we eliminate merfolk and shalarin and expand on the lore surrounding sea eleves and tritons?
You could, but that doesn't mean the result is "better". I, for one, like all the undersea creatures (and by the way, has it been confirmed that 4E is scaling them back as you suggest?). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GS
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 23:13:20
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No no, It has not been suggested, as far as I know. My point is rather that there are a lot of races that are exactly like other races and, in some ways, I don't see why both (or all three or four) are kept. That is what I meant.
I also like the undersea races (I loved Mel Odom's The Threat from the Sea trilogy), but I would like to see fewer sentient races all in all. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 23:15:51
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quote:
Originally posted by GS
No no, It has not been suggested, as far as I know. My point is rather that there are a lot of races that are exactly like other races and, in some ways, I don't see why both (or all three or four) are kept. That is what I meant.
They're kept because a lot of people like them? *shrug* With all due respect, I wouldn't expect the number of sentient races (or much else) to shrink, mainly because WotC makes its money by constantly turning out new material. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 20 Jan 2008 23:16:06 |
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GS
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 01:15:18
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| hehe, I don't expect the number to fall either. But I am allowed to wish all the same. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 07:02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by GS
At one point someone must have sat down and said: “Ok, how many ‘climates are there in FR’? So we need a desert dwarf, snow dwarf, wood dwarf, sea dwarf and space dwarf.”
Ooooh. I want to play some of these. Space dwarf marines attack!  |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 10:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Suddenly I have this image of a Space Dwarf Marine army -- Clangeddin's Valorous Harts Chapter -- defending High Shanatar against an Realms-wide Waaagh!!!
hehe and I see this legless, one-eyed recruiter welcoming people to the mobile infantry  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 20:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Suddenly I have this image of a Space Dwarf Marine army -- Clangeddin's Valorous Harts Chapter -- defending High Shanatar against an Realms-wide Waaagh!!!
hehe and I see this legless, one-eyed recruiter welcoming people to the mobile infantry
Hey, that could work out as a campaign module, 'FRH3: Spacejammer Troopers'! Maybe someone should suggest it to Chris Sims or Greg Bilsland?  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2008 : 17:08:24
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Chris Sims said this about healing over on ENworld:
"Sorry if my use of the word "problem" offended you.
I do think it is a mere problem of perception, though, for you and Davyn. Second wind and even healing powers have the obvious outcomes in the game of increasing hit point numbers. The question ultimately is: What do hps represent? If they don't just represent physical damage, and they don't, then even a so-called "healing" power might just be strengthening a targeted character's resolve to fight on—or whatever the players and DM decide it means for the narrative at the time. Evidence for this is easily found in that the warlord has the martial power source, which isn't completely nonmagical, but certainly less magical than other power sources. Nevertheless, the warlord has healing powers, which my players model in the narrative as inspiring words, encouragements, or a "rub some dirt in it and get back in this fight, soldier" order. With the cleric, it's really a "Pelor cure your ills" sort of thing.
Healing surges, in general, have to be triggered. Second wind is a trigger, usually usable once a fight. Other triggers include healing powers and items, or the proper use of the Heal skill. I don’t see any cheese in healing surges within this context, even though everything is more delicious with cheese. Within this cinematic context, they do make sense.
As for second wind, we've all seen movies and read stories where the hero just won't stay down. Second wind gives a player that kind of control over a PC. What it means in the narrative, once again, is whatever the players and DM decide it means. It's an opportunity to expand the narrative, and not any cheesier than a beat-up action movie hero peeling himself off the pavement and giving the bad guys a few more fives across the lips. D&D aims at that kind of action, and how you imagine the action is up to you.
The same goes for bloodied, which is a state in which a character shows signs of faltering or injury. I can imagine all kinds of abilities keying off being bloodied or an enemy being bloodied. Some people who have posted here have pointed out just such narrative opportunities, such as the yuan-ti seeing he’s got you on the ropes and zealously attacking because of it. And that’s really what they are—narrative, or roleplaying if you prefer, opportunities.
None of the abstractions of the 4e D&D game are outside the realm of imagination’s ability to explain in a fun way within the narrative of the game. I can’t agree with assertions to the contrary."
and, this should make a few people happy, it looks as if Sigil will be in the DMG:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14892689#post14892689 |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2008 : 17:27:07
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So Sigil is in. Kewl. I know some people were wondering if it got cut, and if the City of Brass "replaced" it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2008 : 19:21:13
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| You can't keep the Lady of Pain down. :D |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2008 : 23:43:32
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Not to play devil's advocate, but Sigil is still around, but the planar structure is completely different (although some of the same or similar planes are represented), and planar history is different (no Baernoloths, no Blood War, definite origin for Asmodeus, "primordials" fighting gods in prehistory, etc). In other words, is Sigil without, say 50% of what was connected to Sigil (setting lore wise), really a consolation?
I'm not saying this to be difficult, I'm honestly wondering this. Is this enough of a concession to make up for the changes in the "core story" of D&D? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 00:04:06
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I think it's important to note that Sigil exists as a solid enough setting on its own. However, the planar connections are the necessary element that makes the City of Doors the multiversal metropolis that it is. Having said that, we should also recall that the older PLANESCAPE material always underlined the importance of the power of belief in both Sigil and the planes.
I'd like to take this concept, and couple it with Ed's view on the planes:- in that, "mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods/planes anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased." Thus, everything planar-related is based on belief, or one's interpretation.
The 4e planar cosmology and all its associated connections to Sigil may simply be "one" of many possible planar interpretations from the perspective of the mortal in the City of Doors. It simply comes down to the individual mortal and their own experiences within Sigil, that determines their own reality and what the planes are like. In addition, this belief will determine how the cosmology -- whether it be the Great Wheel, the Great Tree, or whatever is to come -- interacts with the city.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Jan 2008 00:07:02 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 00:18:34
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| True, but does that mean a whole lot of people just quit believing in the Blood War? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 00:55:21
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The perception of the Blood War has always been a complicated issue to address. Especially when it came to mortals trying to discern what exactly was fact and what was fiction. The Yugoloths have done their jobs well in that regard. Perhaps it should be left for DMs to determine, in their own campaigns, just how successful the 'loths have been at manipulating facts about the Blood War.
Maybe the removal of the Baernoloths is an example of such factual manipulation. It has simply meant that the 'loths themselves have deliberately stopped believing in the Baern in order to "hide" them for whatever reason. It may take generations for mortals to forget whatever few tidbits they've managed to piece together. Ultimately however, the line between truth and fiction becomes ever more difficult to ascertain as the centuries and millennia progress.
Some cultures may eventually forget about the Baern, the Blood War... and maybe even the 'loths themselves. On some worlds... the Blood War may have become something akin to a "secret war," whereupon very few mortals actually know, or have heard, of its existence -- which really wouldn't be that different from what the mortal perception of the Blood War was like during 2e/3e.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 10:54:40
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Sigil still around?!?!?
Wow! Nothing like a good new to start a rainy day!  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 15:32:51
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Not to play devil's advocate, but Sigil is still around, but the planar structure is completely different (although some of the same or similar planes are represented), and planar history is different (no Baernoloths, no Blood War, definite origin for Asmodeus, "primordials" fighting gods in prehistory, etc). In other words, is Sigil without, say 50% of what was connected to Sigil (setting lore wise), really a consolation?
I'm not saying this to be difficult, I'm honestly wondering this. Is this enough of a concession to make up for the changes in the "core story" of D&D?
Good question. But I think the answer depends on the preferences of each person.
I'm curious enough about the core setting to try it out, definitely (although that doesn't mean I love *everything* I've heard), but I still wouldn't rework the Realms around this new Cosmology. I agree with the designers that the Great Wheel could be unwieldy, and I don't believe in "forced symmetry" either, but the Great Wheel still has a legacy, for me. I would never ditch it entirely. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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dannyfu
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 16:33:32
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hey folks, i haven't been to candlekeep in a loooonnnngggg time. it is nice to be back and forgive me if my question has been covered, and by all means move it or delete it if necessary. anyways....
i was thumbing through that races and classes preview book (i cannot believe they are charging 20 bucks for info i think should be free, and with all the recycled dragon magazine art, ugh, the nerve) and i was wondering what everyone thought about the eladrins as the new high elves, and elves representing the wood/wild elf subrace. i'm not sure how i feel about this yet, or 4e as a whole but curious to what the community thinks. 4e spilling into the realms, especially elf lore, like Evermeet by EC and such, puzzles me. i know on o-love.net there is a entry for the first 4e realms novel (i think that is where i saw it)by rich baker who did the last mythal trilogy involving the elves and i wonder if the eladrin name that corellon supposedly gave the elves who stayed in the feywild will be worked in....meh. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 18:01:22
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quote:
and with all the recycled dragon magazine art, ugh, the nerve)
Wasn't the art all brand new? Or are you talking about recycled from the online dragon? Either way, most of the art hasn't been seen, before.
quote:
and i was wondering what everyone thought about the eladrins as the new high elves, and elves representing the wood/wild elf subrace.
I like it, myself. I never thought that Moon Elves/Sun Elves should be so different as to justify having two separate stat blocks. Differences in culture, skin tone, and hair and eye color are more then enough. And from what we know, it appears that Eladrin will have +2 Dex, +2 Int racial stats. So they'll encompass both Moon Elves and Sun Elves quite nicely.
quote:
and i wonder if the eladrin name that corellon supposedly gave the elves who stayed in the feywild will be worked in....meh.
Rich has stated that Sun Elves/Moon Elves/Star Elves will still be called Sun Elves/Moon Elves/Star Elves in the Realms. Nobody will call them Eladrin. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Erundur
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 22:41:14
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quote:
I never thought that Moon Elves/Sun Elves should be so different as to justify having two separate stat blocks. Differences in culture, skin tone, and hair and eye color are more then enough.
But Venger, what about the war on Evermeet? The entire reason for that long and subtly built up plotline was due to the enmity between Moon and Sun elves. It is irreconcilable.
The only way they can fix it is with the classic poor DMing maneuver: It was all a dream... |
Inye Erundur, Varyar Eruhinion. |
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dannyfu
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2008 : 06:20:03
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| thanks for the 411 Venger, indeed what Erundur mentioned was my concern with the 4e elvenkind background conflicting with the story of Evermeet. as far as the dragon art goes, yes there was a bunch of new concept art but there were several full page paintings that were old dragon issue covers; i don't recall if it was the races and classes one or the monster one. the main thing that miffed me about both books was that there is a myriad of disgruntled 3.5 gamers like myself who have spent close to a grand on books, they're trying to sway me to except 4e (and unlike the rest of my group, i have not turned my back completely to 4e) and they are trying to get me to buy these books at a total of 40 bucks so they can persuade me to get psyched. i mean come on, i am a 27 year old with a full time job, limited free time and new york city rent to pay. they aren't doing a very good job of convincing me to get my group looking towards the future releases. |
Edited by - dannyfu on 29 Jan 2008 06:26:13 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 02:52:08
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| Scott Rouse said over on ENWorld that there is a Manual of the Planes and Draconicom (spelling?) scheduled for either 2008 or 2009 for 4e. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 03:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Scott Rouse said over on ENWorld that there is a Manual of the Planes and Draconicom (spelling?) scheduled for either 2008 or 2009 for 4e.
Gods, three books with the same title? Do they not have any originality? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 03:38:46
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This was the list of 4th edition products confirmed at EN World, as well as the Scott Rouse comment about the Draconomicon and the Manual of the Planes:
quote:
* Dungeons of Dread Booster (D&D Miniatures Product): April 8 2008
* D&D Miniatures Game Starter (D&D Miniatures Product): April 15, 2008
* Keep on the Shadowfell: Adventure H1: May 20 2008
* Player's Handbook: Jun 6, 2008
* Dungeon Master's Guide: Jun 6, 2008
* Monster Manual: Jun 6, 2008
* 4th Edition Core Rulebook Gift Set: Jun 6, 2008
* Against the Giants: A Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures Huge pack: Jul 15, 2008
* Dungeons & Dragons Character Record Sheets: Jul 15, 2008
* Halls of the Giant Kings: Dungeon Tiles: Jul 15, 2008
* Dungeons & Dragons Premium Dice: Jul 15, 2008
* Dungeons & Dragons for Dummies: July 21, 2008
* Thunderspire Labyrinth: Adventure H2: Jul 15, 2008
* Dungeon Master's Screen: Aug 19, 2008
* D&D Icons: Gargantuan Dracolich (D&D Miniatures Product) Aug 19, 2008 ["on hold " - a Gargantuan Orcus is coming at some point instead]
* Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide: Aug 19, 2008
* Pyramid of Shadows: Adventure H3: Aug 19, 2008
* Forgotten Realms Player's Guide: Sep 16, 2008
* Scepter Tower of Spellgard: Adventure FR1: Sep 16, 2008
* Tome of Treasures (Suplement): Sep 16, 2008
* Dungeon Master's Guide - Deluxe Edition: Oct 21, 2008 [The Rouse : "Leather or some other deluxe cover material, gilded edges, ribbon book mark, etc..."
* King of the Trollhaunt Warrens: Adventure P1: Oct 21, 2008
* Martial Power (Rules Expansion): Oct 21, 2008
* Monster Manual - Deluxe Edition: Oct 21, 2008
* Player's Handbook - Deluxe Edition: Oct 21, 2008
* Urban Lairs: DU1 - Dungeon Tiles: Oct 21, 2008
In addition, in response to the comment "Manual of the Planes or a Draconomicon or both are also in the works for late 2008 or early 2009", The Rouse responds : "Yes".
I bolded the dracolich iconic on the list because its been put on hold . . . that was one of the things I was actually looking forward to. Ah well. I might actually use a dracolich in my 3.5 campaign, but I'm certainly not planning on using a Gargantuan Orcus any time soon.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 05:59:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Scott Rouse said over on ENWorld that there is a Manual of the Planes and Draconicom (spelling?) scheduled for either 2008 or 2009 for 4e.
Gods, three books with the same title? Do they not have any originality?
Eh, you know..... WOTC doesn't care that there are books with titles from the old lore. That lore isn't referenced. Its OLD lore. Who uses that stuff? Kind of the same deal with the reuse of FR titles or FR tags for old modules/sourcebooks/etc.
Edit: But I really don't see a need for ANOTHER book about dragons. What... are dragons in 4e completely different that they need ANOTHER book about them? Sigh. The MoTP I guess I could see since there is a new cosmology but.... dragons are dragons.... why another book about them? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 31 Jan 2008 06:32:05 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 06:39:13
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But Dragons have that horn now, unless as one speculated that unicorn horn is a tempory thing that young ones used to break out of their shell.
Dragons and Dragon kin might however require a rewrite to have them fit into 4th Edition rules. With apparent masive change in core rules Dragons clearly will have to at least be adjusted for the new rule set.
Until the book is put and reviewed it clearly is hard to know the value of it, if it is a good and/or needed replacement for what has already been written. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 15:31:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Edit: But I really don't see a need for ANOTHER book about dragons. What... are dragons in 4e completely different that they need ANOTHER book about them?
Yup!
Anyway, thanks for posting the list. I'm still rather curious about whether or not 4E will become as bloated with rules as 3E did (after all, that is apparently something 4E is supposed to fix). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 15:59:37
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quote:
But Venger, what about the war on Evermeet? The entire reason for that long and subtly built up plotline was due to the enmity between Moon and Sun elves. It is irreconcilable.
In what way? Is the idea of one culture warring on another culture even though they're members of the same race that foreign and irreconcilable to you?  Check out the news, that sort of thing happens every day right here on planet Earth (And a lot of times, the combatants share the same culture, too). Besides, I hardly think the cause of their conflict is because one of them has a +2 bonus to Int and the other has a +2 bonus to Dex. It's purely because of cultural reasons. And you don't need mechanics for culture. A Moon Elf can still be a Moon Elf and a Sun Elf can still be a Sun Elf even though they're mechanically the same. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
Edited by - Venger on 31 Jan 2008 16:04:52 |
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Mr. Wilson
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 11:19:48
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I don't mind a new book on Dragons once an edition or so. The game is named Dungeons and Dragons after all.
Plus, from what I can tell, Dragons seem to be reworked somewhat in 4.0. |
"I've got a plan..."- Dan
"Nothing good has ever come after those four words." - Jesse |
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
