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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2010 : 16:16:15
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More from Ed on artwork and its creators, and how King Azoun IV can be painted
Cheers
Damian
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Yes, there have been artists murdered because of their work (though it's rare). Being shunned by most noble patrons is a more common fate. I'll do a proper reply on this as soon as I can snatch the time (embarking on taxes right now).
Re. paintings of royalty: a nude of a current queen, or a scene depicting any current royalty or the immediate parents of current royalty doing something humiliating (unclad, on their knees, being flogged or engaging in sexual acts in which they are the recipient rather than the dominant, for instance) would be considered in the worst of taste, and either kept hidden for private viewing (by the commissioning noble and perhaps one or two trusted friends whom he knows beforehand hold the same views on the royal personage in question) - - or would suffer arrest, fining, and public disgrace (plus burning of the offending painting) at the hands of local, loyal Purple Dragons, even without the royalty ever personally knowing about it. War Wizards and the heralds all act quickly on matters like this, to prevent disparagement of the royal family becoming an everyday, widespread affair.
Azoun IV, however, is a special case. If he's shown casually or wholly clad, talking with women, reading with women, arranging flowers with women, hunting with women, etc., that's all "just fine." If he or they are partially unclad, it's only okay if the scene is him fighting to protect them against a foe (who is NOT an angry husband, it should be pointed out). Nudes or partial nudes of past queens (before Filfaeril) are all right, so long as they are tasteful rather than caricatures or depicted in demeaning poses. (It has been slyly argued that as painters ALWAYS put crowns on the heads of females so the viewer will know they are queens, they are, in fact, never completely nude . . . but heralds and courtiers take the flat view of: showing breasts and/or crotch is a concern, showing legs, "half a haunch," bare arms and shoulders, "the swell of the bosom," and so on, is NOT a matter of concern.
In all cases, if a painter attempts an accurate (to the facts, as much as they are known) depiction of an actual event, this is a partially-mitigating defense against any complaints of "lewd" or "treasonous" art. So if Lady Delnwood fled naked from her bedchamber into the arms of the waiting King Azoun when her drunken sons burst in to wreck the room, that's "okay" as the subject of a painting. Because the King was in reality accompanied by a War Wizard, three courtiers, and a bodyguard of four Purple Dragons, and he and they were all fully clothed, it would NOT be okay for the artist to depict the waiting King, his arms outstretched to Lady Delnwood, as being alone and naked at the time.
It is an offense to copy an offending piece of art and show the copy "in public," so if a painting is deemed "banned," selling or displaying all copies of it, however inferior, is also a crime. (Note that as all paintings, as opposed to prints, are hand-painted, the copies need not be exact; if the offending elements are reproduced, no matter how badly, changing the setting, colour palette, or other details doesn't make the copy "acceptable."
My notes have yielded up a prominent painter of Suzail, circa 1357 DR: Elros Lazandur, an aging, crotchety, short and stooped man who does portraits and hunt scenes depicting nobility - - but refuses to do nudes or anything "modern." His work is well respected, expensive, and rarely comes on the market because noble buyers don't want to part with it. His house (including a front room shop/studio) is on Doloph Street ("DOE-loff"), which is one of the streets south of the Promenade and paralleling the Promenade, in the western half of the city.
So saith Ed. Who promises more, when he can get to it. (The Christmas tree is down after four years, so it's taxes now!!!)
love to all,
THO |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 28 Mar 2010 16:16:44 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2010 : 11:54:40
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Thanks again crazed, for your contributions.
BTW, do any more Cormyr-related short stories exist aside from Scott Ciencins A Virtue By Reflection from Realms of Valor (which I added to the listing on page 1, right after the novels-section)?
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2010 : 14:03:01
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There! I just had to read a little further in Realms of Valor to find yet another cormyr-related short-story: A Family Business by James Lowder.
The story does not give that many cormyr-related info, I have to admit. However, it retells the events of an assassination attempt on the young Prince Azoun, even before he became the great and reknown King Azoun IV. Therefore alone it belongs to the list on the first page, where you'll find it from today onward.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 09 May 2010 20:39:25 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 00:06:18
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Ed on Espar, Esparin and Hullack
Cheers
Damian
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“I had always assumed that Espar was the capital of/or named after the now absorbed Kingdom of Esparin (re: the Enchara lore from the Haunted Halls module). Obviously given what is written in 'The Sword that Never Sleeps' novel this appears not to be the case?”
Espar is named after the vanished kingdom, yes, but it wasn’t always its capital (see next answer).
“So is Espar named after Esparin and if so why is it on the western reaches of Cormyr rather than the northeast where the Kingdom of Esparin was based? (The only theory I can come up with is that this is a deliberate choice by the Crown/Court Wizard to throw folks who are looking for Lost Esparin into the wrong area and therefore conceal the Lost Palace?).”
Yerespar began as a marketmoot around the westernmost fortress (which stood hard by the hilltop “Stronghold” seen in SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR, that the young future Knights played in; the Stronghold of today is actually the stone foundations of a cottage outbuilding of the royal mansion of Esparin, the keep that guarded that mansion having been entirely torn apart by Cormyrean fortresses, and the stones carried off for use in building the later Cormyrean cottages of Espar and elsewhere) of Esparin.
In the early years of Esparin’s existence, its seat of power was to the east, and it was then that what’s known today as “the Lost Palace” was built.
Later, as the Esparrin came to increasingly to depend on covert supplies of arms, mercenaries, mounts, food, and coin from certain nobles of Cormyr, the capital of the realm was moved to Yerespar, and it was renamed “Espar,” and the royal mansion and “Sword Keep” were built there.
The mansion was torched and utterly destroyed, along with Sword Keep, but the cottage had been blasted to bits by a wizard’s spell earlier in the conflicts between Esparin and Cormyr (in a failed attempt to slay royal Esparrin), and had been forgotten and never rebuilt, so its overgrown foundations survived.
After Palaghard wed Enchara and Esparin fell to Cormyr, the inhabitants of Esparin who were willing to swear loyalty to Cormyr’s Crown were allowed to remain in Espar (many retiring Purple Dragons were given land to settle on in and around Espar for decades thereafter, to “anchor” it in loyal hands). The other Esparrin had either been slain in battle with Cormyr, or were driven off, or had fled (most of them into the Dales and northern, backcountry Sembia, where there’s a distaste for Cormyr that lingers to this day).
So as not to “poke the sleeping dragon” of local anger against the Court in Suzail, the name “Espar” was tolerated and allowed to stand, rather than being replaced - - and yes, a factor in that decision was its location as the westernmost fringe of the conquered kingdom, rather than its heart (so, indeed, rebels and others seeking “Lost Esparin” were misdirected into the wrong area).
“Can you say anything more about Esparin? Was it a breakaway kingdom that came back into the fold? From printed lore its history revolves around Enchara and her marrying Palaghard I in the 12th century after he conquered it. So we have plenty of time for it to 'pop up' in the history of Cormyr before especially as it is based near Arabel and Cormyr 'proper' - it would seem to me therefore to be a short lived Kingdom?”
Esparin was a relatively short-lived kingdom, but rather than being a breakaway, it was more of a separately-founded place, in the northern wilderlands of the area between the Thunder Peaks and the Stormhorns, that the Purple Dragon lost to the elves, and the elves faded away before the ever-expanding human settlements of. In other words, the elves had already decided to give up the futile bloodshed of resisting the humans, and quietly surrender the territory west of the Thunder Peaks, retreating to the Elven Court (though some of them lingered in the Hullack). There were many dissatisfied humans from other lands who sought new lands where they could dwell in less oppression and more prosperity. Esparin was founded by one such (circa 1020 DR, though there are disputes as to the exact date and founder) and resisted the “authority” of exploring bands and monster-scouring patrols from Cormyr, eventually becoming raiders of Cormyr and being seen as “outlaw rebels” by Cormyr.
Esparrin always considered themselves owners and citizens of their own land, that had as much right to exist as “that other kingdom” of Cormyr to the south, and although they first mistrusted exiles from Cormyr and fugitives from Cormyrean justice as “spies sent among us,” over time they became proud to welcome “fellow oppressed” from Cormyr, to swell their ranks.
When Proster was king of Cormyr, he ignored Esparin’s rise, but his more famous son Baerovus saw Esparin as a threat when he came to the throne, and gave battle to its forces whenever he saw good opportunity. In the seemingly eternal struggle between House Obarskyr and the nobles of Cormyr who weren’t on the Dragon Throne, Esparin was secretly supported by some of those noble families to weaken the Obarskyrs (in hopes that they could be supplanted on the throne) and by wealthy merchants of Marsember who hoped to win independence for Marsember from a Cormyr weakened and embroiled in a war with Esparin.
“Re. the heraldry of Esparin with the Unicorn - made up as new or derived from a rebel family that broke from Cormyr? Or does the unicorn and trees have any link with the Hullack forest and/or Hullack himself? I ask because of the timeframe:
- From Pages from the Mages VI we learn that Hullack led the druids of the Wyvernwater 200 years ago (say 1100DR or so) about the same time Esparin was in force? We also know that the druids were slain by beholders who were served by gargoyles, bugbears, and quicklings. The eye tyrants sought to establish a realm in the area.
- Futhermore the 'Men in Green' used the Crystum of Tranquility to slay the Beholder King sometime after 1112DR when they recived the Crystrum from Shalgreth of the Wings (a member of the Hullack Circle given the preceding lore in the 2E Prayers from the Faithful writeup?)
Three pieces of Realmslore within a similar timeframe and similar location - just wondering if there is a connection between Esparin and Hullack?”
The only real connection (though local tales speak darkly of many more) is that one (the beholders) sought to take advantage of the distraction afforded by another (Esparin) in their battles with Cormyr.
The rise of the beholders certainly pushed more of the elves out of the Hullack and east the mountains, right out of what became Cormyr. Hullack himself, and the druids, were on friendly-to-neutral terms with Esparin because the Esparrin were wise enough not to make foes of them, whereas Hullack’s relationship with expanding Cormyr was NOT friendly.
Hullack and the Esparrin were never, so far as is known by later loremasters, battle-allies.
The unicorn-and-trees heraldry of Esparin is related to the trees of the Hullack and King’s Forest, and the wilderlands north of both and between both (which were then largely uncleared for farming and still heavily wooded). Unicorns were legendarily numerous in those now-vanished “in between” forests, and one of the noble families of Cormyr that secretly supported Esparin, House Ulmair, used the unicorn as its badge and the chief charge of its blazon.
However, two prominent families of Esparin, the Darlreths and the Melmanes, also had unicorn badges and blazons.
(The Ulmairs are extinct as a noble house of Cormyr, but have numerous descendants in Westgate, and the Darlreths and Melmanes are widely believed to have been exterminated in Palaghard’s conquest of Esparin, but in fact numerous descendants survive scattered across Sembia.)
I hope these answers are helpful. I hope to say much more about Esparin eventually, just as I hope to reveal the full lineage of Cormyr some day . . . but I’ve got an unfinished novel on my plate, first! (And a Spin A Yarn not yet done, second! And . . . )
Heh. So saith Ed, creator of the Realms and its busy, busy handyman, makeover co-ordinator, and tour guide.
love,
THO
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 03:19:17
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 This is great stuff... but it's the full Cormyr Lineage that makes me all tingly...  Maybe we'll see the Lineage for the end of April 2011... why then? "Because it'ss my birthday, and I wantss it!"  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 10:06:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ah, I can answer one of your questions myself, straight away: whenever a noble family is "extinguished" in Cormyr (by dying off, or by being stripped of noble title), its lands and holdings are forfeit to the crown or "return to the realm." That is, they pass back into the hands of the Obarskyrs, who may retain them - - or more often dole them out again, to someone newly ennobled foer service to Cormyr, later.
A keep thus changing hands may well be renamed, but from my experience playing in the Realms, old names tend to "cling" in Cormyr for generations, regardless of renamings.
love,
THO
I saw this project, and wanted to add this in just in case someone else might benefit from it in their research or campaigns.  |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 20:44:23
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Thanks crazed and Joran.
Both are very interesting pieces of lore concerning our beloved Forest Kingdom and their contribution is very much appreciated.
Keep on delivering, fellow scribes.
And here is another short and somewhat removed cormyr-related information from my part:
- Alkenen the peddler is featured in Twilight Falling by Paul S. Kemp on p. 32 et seq. Even though he's not a major player in Cormyrian matters, I thought Alkenen to be a great NPC, who might appear almost anywhere in Cormyr at any time. Here is a short info on him, his cart and his goods as discribed on p. 33 of the above mentioned source:
quote:
Alkenen's cart looked much like most peddlers', a sturdy wodden box on four wheels. "Roadships" they were called. Goods were stored for travel inside the walk-in main compartment, accessible from a narrow door in the back, and rotating slats were built into the cart's sides. When turned down and locked in place, the slats could serve as display shelves.
Alkenen is active from the Heartlands to Sembia, traveling through Cormyr from time to time selling a dizzying array of goods - glassware, knick-knacks, statuettes of wood and bronze, sterling pendants, old clothing, leather goods, used weapons, even kitchen pots.
Good gaming always,
Ergdusch
________________
Edit Note:
Upon reading about Alkenen the Peddler I questioned Paul S. Kemp about him. Here is both, question and answer copied from the Chambers of Sages section:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Alkenen the peddler is featured in Twilight Falling on p. 32 et seq. I was wondering if you have any further information on this character, i.e. on backround, personality, abilities, his business contacts or traveling routes, etc. Esp. cormyr-related contacts would be of great interest to me.
Further I was wondering, if Alkenen is able to detect magic himself or if a friend or associate would check his goods for magic from time to time. Or could it be that Alkenen regularly sells magic items without him knowing so?
Ergdusch,
You're forcing me deep down the memory hole here, brother.
In my conception, Alkenen was what we might kindly term "touched," or what we might ungenerously call "nuts." He was about two degrees of separation from the crazy street preacher who shouts at clouds.
Given his state of mind (probably caused by either a head injury, narcotic usage as a younger man, or both) he didn't have much in the way of established routes, instead traveling the heartlands along whatever roads struck him as appropriate from moment to moment. In a way, that's helped his trade, in that he's been able to procure some true oddities from some out of the way places (it's also put him in considerable danger several times). Of course, he eventually tended to find his way back to the various cities/towns that served as the anchor points of his wanderings (Selgaunt, Saerloon, Daerlun, etc.).
He could probably spin a few interesting tales about life on the road if one could tolerate considerable tangential digressions during the telling. He's also a wealth of information about back roads and little known villages throughout Sembia and eastern Cormyr. He's got a lot of leagues under his boots and could be an extraordinary contact for a group of adventurers in the area.
He probably doesn't check his wares for enchantment with any regularity (again, owing to his state of mind and the fact that, deep down, he's really not so much a profiteer as a bit of a crazy old coot afflicted with wanderlust and a taste for oddball items). So sure, he could easily sell a magic item in ignorance.
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 18 May 2010 08:46:40 |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 21:50:05
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| This is proving to be a most excellent and informative scroll! Keep the lore coming |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 22:40:56
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THO on prominent Esparrin families
Cheers
Damian
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Damian and Blueblade, I know that there were a dozen or so prominent families of Esparin, that eight or nine of them named themselves "lords and ladies" and that Sembia recognized and used such titles (largely to ingratiate themselves with those families on a face-to-face trading level, and secondly to anger Cormyr). My notes have the surnames of six of those families (all of whom still survive, scattered throughout the Fallen Stars lands, though most of those who dwell in Sembia changed their names generations ago to avoid Cormyrean attention), but I know nothing at all about them; we'll have to wait for Ed to put flesh on these bones, so to speak.
The names are: Baerungar, Bracegauntlet, Hasgram, Mornim, Naerbold, and Rook (that last one is pronounced to rhyme with "hook").
One of them (I know not which one) used a curved hunting horn (horizontal, with ends curving upwards, mouthpiece to the dexter) as its badge, but I don't know which one.
love,
THO
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2010 : 15:52:35
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Ed on a noble Esparrin family becoming Cormyrian; buying land in Cormyr; and units of land measurement
Cheers
Damian
**********************************
Hello again, all.
Damian, Ed confirms that you're quite right: the Bracegauntlets are the Esparin noble family that "made the jump" to the Cormyrean noble ranks (my addition: very probably for service to Cormyr's kings during the battles with Esparin, i.e. siding with Cormyr).
Joran, Ed says that most Crown land in Cormyr is given as a royal gift. The exceptions are urban properties no noble would want (i.e. a rotting warehouse near the docks) and places that the Crown wants settled (on the borders of the realm, i.e. along the border with Sembia, around the Bridge of Fallen Men, and [ahem] near the Stonelands, specifically from the overland trade-roads north to the Stonelands, to more heavily settle [and therefore secure] the lands north and northeast of the Hullack Forest as part of Cormyr). There is no "set price;" it varies by who's trying to buy, how much they're trying to buy, what the quality of that land is, for farming, and the location of the land (urban, close to good roads, close to large settlements versus remote) - - and of course the price has increased over time.
BTW, the "acre" is a term still slowly creeping into the Realms, thanks to Elminster ("hectare" is still unknown), and most properties in Cormyr would officially be measured in "chains" or "chainsquares" (the surveyor's chain being a linear measurement, and the "chainsquare" being a square area measurement consisting of one chain per side; chains rather than rigid "ruler"-like measures are used so as to be able to handle irregular shapes).
I'll try to get back to you with some typical prices.
And that's the daily roundup, thus far. I hope to make contact with Ed late tonight, after he gets home from work (shifts changed due to employee illness), so there MIGHT be more Realmslore forthcoming. Or not. Life is busy, folks.
love,
THO |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2010 : 23:40:37
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| The sample chapters of Elminster Must Die in Circle of Skulls, is full of Cormyr Realmslore... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 07:21:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The sample chapters of Elminster Must Die in Circle of Skulls, is full of Cormyr Realmslore...
Thanks for the info, Brimstone!
I'll post this info on page 1. I assume it's 4th Edition though, right?
Have you any further insights on the cormyr-related lore found therein, that you might be willing to share with us (with spoiler warning if neccissary)?
Ergdusch
P.S.: Brings to my mind that Elminster in Hell gives us some cormyr-related lore as well in one or a few flashbacks of the old sage. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 13:11:06
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While I was adding Brimstone's hint about the sample chapters of Elminster must die! to the 4th Ed. section on the first page, I remembered that the first 4th-Ed. adveture series (H1-3) had a Forgotten Realms Conversion placing it within the borders of Cormyr.
quote:
The Setting
In the Forgotten Realms setting, the town of Winterhaven — around which much of the adventure revolves — lies on the East Way between Arabel and Highmoon. The town is located deep in the Thunder Peaks, precariously situated at the edge of Sembia’s influence.
For its starting point alone the adventure is already cormyr-related. Further conversion facts support this, such as the name changes and some backround inforamtion.
Anyhow, you'll find the Forgotten Realms Conversion here and the direkt link to the pdf-file here.
I added both links to the first post under the 4th Ed. DDi articles-section.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 11 May 2010 13:28:51 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 23:42:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The sample chapters of Elminster Must Die in Circle of Skulls, is full of Cormyr Realmslore...
Thanks for the info, Brimstone!
I'll post this info on page 1. I assume it's 4th Edition though, right?
Have you any further insights on the cormyr-related lore found therein, that you might be willing to share with us (with spoiler warning if neccissary)?
Ergdusch
P.S.: Brings to my mind that Elminster in Hell gives us some cormyr-related lore as well in one or a few flashbacks of the old sage.
PM sent. Yeah its 4E Cormyr.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 02:47:59
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Confirmed by Ed, though he added: "Some changes wrought by time will be immediately obvious, particularly on the character level. However, most readers will probably be struck by how much remains the same."
(from 3e Cormyr to 4e Cormyr, he means).
love,
THO |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 04:59:30
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So true THO.
To quote Storm Silverhand in Chapter 2, "So it's to be another bold night in brave Cormyr". |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 06:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Thanks again crazed, for your contributions.
BTW, do any more Cormyr-related short stories exist aside from Scott Ciencins A Virtue By Reflection from Realms of Valor (which I added to the listing on page 1, right after the novels-section)?
Ergdusch
Both my short stories "Laughter in the Flames" in Realms of Infamy and "The Club Rules" in Realms of Mystery take place in Cormyr. They involve the Society of Stalwart Adventurers, which has its headquarters in Suzail. The novel The Ring of Winter starts in Cormyr, as well.
Cheers,
James Lowder |
Edited by - JamesLowder on 12 May 2010 06:25:33 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2010 : 10:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by JamesLowder
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Thanks again crazed, for your contributions.
BTW, do any more Cormyr-related short stories exist aside from Scott Ciencins A Virtue By Reflection from Realms of Valor (which I added to the listing on page 1, right after the novels-section)?
Ergdusch
Both my short stories "Laughter in the Flames" in Realms of Infamy and "The Club Rules" in Realms of Mystery take place in Cormyr. They involve the Society of Stalwart Adventurers, which has its headquarters in Suzail. The novel The Ring of Winter starts in Cormyr, as well.
Cheers,
James Lowder
I thank you immensely, James for your contribution. I'll add the sources to the list on page 1 of this thread straight away.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 13 May 2010 11:01:38 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2010 : 08:49:01
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I edited a post of mine on page 9 of this thread about Alkenen the Peddler by adding an answer from Paul S. Kemp on an inquiry of mine regardign that character.
Greetings,
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 22:14:57
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Quick question for our Cormyr experts:
I know that the crown has offered both land and money (and perhaps a title?) to anyone able to take a piece of the Stonelands, and hold it. Sort of a fantasy version of 'Home-steading'.
Anyone know where I can find this bit of lore? I looked in the two most obvious sources (the Cormyr booklets), and also the Stonelands booklet that came in Elminster's Ecologies, and I can't seem to locate it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 23:25:27
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| Markus: check the entry for Cormyr in the 3E FRCS. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2010 : 23:40:43
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Thanks Mr. Misc - hadn't thought to check a 3e source.
That must be based on the earlier entry I recall; perhaps I should check the 1e/2e campaign guides now.
That, and the law I was talking about in the other thread, has lead to some rather... interesting.. developments in the Stonelands. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2010 : 11:13:40
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Ed on Alusair during her mid-teens
Cheers
Damian
************************************************************
Hi. Well, there’s plausible and then there’s plausible. Alusair was a VERY rebellious teen; what we saw of her in my KNIGHTS OF MYTH DRANNOR trilogy (in 1348 DR, when she was 13) was just the beginning of her really “busting out” into defying Vangerdahast, her father the king, and just about everyone else short of her mother Filfaeril (whom she avoided, so as to escape being given specific orders and prohibitions she might feel the need to break). Alusair is the ultimate “tomboy.” Reckless and foolhardy, yes, but unlike her older sister Tanalasta, who was largely sheltered from the world, Alusair really LEARNED about Cormyr and surrounding lands and “the way the world really is” (just as her father Azoun had done, with Vangerdahast, as seen briefly in CORMYR: A NOVEL). Remember: Tanalasta was the heir; Alusair was the “spare,” and was allowed to develop into a different sort of asset to the kingdom: a war-leader who soon romanced the younger sons of most of the noble houses, binding them to herself in a personal loyalty that largely overcame their parents’ traditional resistance to the royal house.
I would strongly disagree with a view that she went “down hill.” That’s like looking back on your worst teenaged mistakes and judging the course of your life from them and only them. She made blunders, yes, and endangered herself (and by extension, the realm), yes - - but Azoun did worse, and the great majority of his subjects LOVED him for it.
I believe that if you read the novel CRUSADE by James Lowder, you’ll form a somewhat different view of the young Alusair than you seem to hold.
The young Alusair could definitely have gone hunting in foreign lands, particularly wilderlands not governed by a strong rulership that is a rival of Cormyr, and would have been accompanied by as many Purple Dragons as the Highknights and War Wizards assigned to protect her hide could have managed to send along.
However, she wouldn’t have been “sent” on any such foray, and no, she wouldn’t have been allowed to go anywhere as risky and as politically sensitive as Myth Drannor at the time, much less hunt rakshasas. However, she might well have twisted an “allowed” expedition to see the dales (avoiding Archendale and places under Zhent influence, like Daggerdale and Voonlar) into such a foray, yes - - but that’s more “Alusair at 17 or 19” behaviour, rather than what her 15-year-old self would have dared.
And I’d be very careful about judging any of those two generations of royals except Azoun by what relatively little we have seen of them, thus far. It’s somewhat akin to trying to judge, say, JFK by seeing footage of two of his public speeches and then his assassination, without ever learning anything else (about his childhood, family background, schooling, the private character of the man that only his friends saw, etc.).
I hope this helps. Feel free to pose more queries about these Obarskyrs. The chances to tell their tales are slipping away, and they really are fascinating people.
I’ll slide in a little hint, here: you may read some more of Alusair’s utterances in print, fairly soon.
So saith Ed. Creator of the Realms, Cormyr, Azoun, Alusair, Tanalasta, Filfaeril, Vangerdahast, the War Wizards, the Highknights . . . and LOTS more, of course.
love to all,
THO
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 21:47:52
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THO on superb horse breeders
Cheers
Damian
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Traditionally the Huntsilvers and the Cormaerils sold horses, but this is just what I can remember off of the top of my head; Ed will have to provide a proper answer.
Off to him it goeth . . .
love,
THO |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 21:48:57
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Ed on Glarasteer Rhauligan
Cheers
Damian
*************************************
Not QUITE enough time has passed, just yet. However, I promise you that the Rhauligan family's tale isn't quite done, that you'll learn SOMEthing tangentially related to it in ELMINSTER MUST DIE! . . . and that I'm awaiting the right opportunity to say more.
Although I mislike "steering" the Spin A Yarn audience at GenCon, mentioning the use of Glarasteer Rhauligan at that seminar would almost, ahem, FORCE me to say more about him....wouldn't it? ;}
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 21:51:18
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Ed on Elminster's rank within the War Wizards
Cheers
Damian
*********************************************
(Longtime Lurker said: This is all speculation on my part, but it sure fits what El said. He was the "top" alarphon at some time, and because he outlived everyone, never formally relinquished that post. Later kings saw him as a convenient bogeyman to warn off Vangey or any other over-ambitious War Wizard with, if they stepped too far into "running things without remembering to even inform the Obarskyrs about what orders they were giving" territory, and "reconfirmed" him in that post, perhaps pointedly at Court.)
Longtime Lurker, you are DEAD-ON CORRECT in your post about Elminster. That's exactly where his rank comes from. In American terms, he's somewhat like a Secret Service man: although no one amongst the general population or local police may know his face or name, he has the authority to give orders - - but may run into resistance from those who dispute his authority because they just don't know (or accept) what he is. The average Cormyrean has no idea that the legendary Elminster has any formal or legal connection to Cormyr, and would be slow to believe it.
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 21:52:25
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THO on why the Chosen are encouraging magic in Cormyr
Cheers
Damian
**************************************************
So the Chosen are working to keep Cormyr a breeding ground for wizards and sorcerers, without letting the War Wizards oppress non-member mages and ever get out of hand enough for them to be hated by the commonfolk, right?
Right!
love,
THO
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 22:15:51
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Ed and THO on Elminster, Cormyr and the Dales; and wielders of the Art in Cormyr; and Azoun and Highknights and House Wizards
Cheers
Damian
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To make things clearer: Elminster is happy to dwell in the Dales, and from the 1350s onward to the Spellplague, his primary focus is on the Dales (to keep the Zhents and Hillsfar and Sembia AND Cormyr from conquering them, because they have an intrinsic value in and of themselves that he highly prizes, because they buffer the ruins of Myth Drannor and prevent any of those four local powers from seizing them, and because their continued existence helps to "hold those four apart" and prevent them from warring with each other directly, ruining the lives of thousands and bringing down a kingdom that is unintentionally doing much to foster widespread use of magic: Cormyr.
Through the Harpers but also working on their own, various Chosen of Mystra are trying to keep Cormyr "magic friendly."
No, all Highknights are NOT Harpers, and Azoun would react with suspicion (and Cormyr's courtiers, nobles, and War Wizards would all react with horror) if they thought Harpers were trying to infiltrate or even influence the Highknights, the Court, or the War Wizards.
The Harpers ARE trying to get some of their number into the Highknights, and to watch the Highknights closely to make sure Sembia, the Zhentarim, and others (Thay, Amn, etc.) aren't succeeding in getting agents of their own into the Highknights.
Markustay, you're close to a not-so-well-kept secret regarding Cormyr (and Elminster), but from what you've posted (about choosing Chosen) I don't think you've got it, yet. However, don't stop digging. :}
Markustay, you're right that Elminster has watched over and covertly meddled in Cormyrean matters for a long time, that he does personally compare it with Athalantar from time to time, and that Vangey's work allowed Elminster to pay less attention to Cormyr's passing politics than he had to do before Vangey hit his stride.
When it comes to equating Harpers and Highknights, EVERYONE should bear in mind when the author is speaking or thinking, and when characters are speaking or thinking - - and the tendency of many courtiers, lawkeepers, and other authorities in most kingdoms of the Realms to "see Harpers lurking in every shadow." Harpers are a convenient scapegoat, the same way that real-world individuals during the Cold War saw "Communists" everywhere, and some see "left-wing socialists" everywhere today . . . and so, by Wizards of War in Cormyr (Vangey and Laspeera excepted), Harpers have almost always been mentally accorded greater numbers and influence than they truly have.
Elminster is NOT the “father of Cormyr.” The truth is this: both Mystra and several of her Chosen observed Cormyr down the passing centuries and came to see that, as part of fostering magic use, a realm in which wizards were tolerated, accepted, and to some extent controlled and made part of the lawkeepers SO AS TO BECOME MORE TOLERATED AND ACCEPTED (if not loved) was A Good Thing (as far as furthering Mystra’s aims was concerned).
Cormyr could be such a place . . . and perhaps SHOULD become such a place.
So (fairly recently, as centuries are counted) Elminster, Storm, Dove, and to some extent Khelben (with Laeral) and Alustriel became “involved” in watching over Cormyr to make sure the Wizards of War didn’t go “off the rails” into oppressing other users of the Art too much, or to become feared and hated not as an arm of the Dragon Throne but a rival to it, and so ruin Cormyr as a cradle of more magic use.
Through the Harpers, without ever making any Cormyrean conscious of it (though Vangerdahast and Laspeera came to see it well enough, and Caladnei strongly suspect it, and they weren’t prevented from doing so), the Crown of Cormyr and its mages were covertly aided and supported by Elminster and others. VERY lightly, trying not to interfere one whit more in the politics of Cormyr than was necessary - - and mainly acting to prevent or inhibit Zhent, Thayan, Sembian, or other “wizard infiltrators” from gaining any real power inside the government of Cormyr.
Filfaeril and others came to know Elminster as a friend and confidant, but more as a “wise and powerful old archwizard who has an interest in Cormyr AS A HARPER” rather than a Chosen of Mystra steering or trying to manipulate the Forest Kingdom. Fee and others mainly used him as someone they could get a true, insightful answer to something from, in secret (and one of the things I can confirm that Fee AND Azoun IV asked Elminster, separately, was if he would counter Vangerdahast if it ever became necessary, in “preserving Cormyr;” El said yes to both of them, but please note that “preserving Cormyr” is NOT the same as guarding or promoting the aims of a particular Obarskyr, ruling or not - - and that, despite all the aid he’s given Azoun IV over the years, Vangey has also always been dedicated to “preserving Cormyr” without necessarily guarding or promoting the aims of any particular Obarskyr.
So saith Ed. See? Nothing very surprising, so far. I'm guessing that Mystra and/or her Chosen might well have planted the idea of having "house wizards" being de rigeur among the nobility of Cormyr, in the first place, to spread the wizards around so the realm would never think "all wizards work for the king."
I'll toss that thought Ed's way, and see if he confirms it and report back either way...
love to all,
THO
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 22:20:33
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Garen Thal on Amedahast and the Mages Royal
Cheers
Damian
*********************************************
Amedahast was raised and studied in Myth Drannor before her tenure under Baerauble, so it's not really necessary that she have learned its spells from Elminster.
What I'm suggesting isn't that El learned magical abilities or secrets from Amedahast (he is among the most talented spellcasters of his or any generation, after all), but that he may have adopted her tactics and observed her behavior. Although Baerauble was the first of Cormyr's high mages, and its second longest-serving (Thanderahast beats him by a couple of years), Amedahast was by far the most magically talented and far-sighted (although the latter, it could be said, is a title worthy of Vangerdahast, too). It was she who created the War Wizards--yes, even before the Harpers--and the meddling of great mages in Cormyr owes its tradition to her as much as anyone else.
A powerful young Chosen of Mystra, capable in spells but still looking to find a place and a method in the world beyond hurling fireballs at fell villains, could learn much from a woman like that, even one that is younger than himself...
Amedahast was rather young when she came to Cormyr, but I'm not entirely sure what gives you the impression that she was "fully human." In game terms, she's certainly human, but she absolutely has elven blood. And, as has been shown over and over in the various sources, aging works differently for the -dahast mages than it does for others.
I won't comment on whether or not Amedahast ever met Alea (because it's a story question too rich to spoil), but this young woman was a descendant of at least one wizard that helped raise the mythal over Cormanthor (and who was known as the High Lady of Art), and another who was so respected by the elven court that he was given wardship over Cormyr alongside Faerlthann. She was tutored in magic from a very young age.
As for the meeting of Alea and Baerauble (depicted in Cormyr: A Novel), it is not a happy story. At its core, an erudite mage is captured by savage humans, who are slain by grieving, borderline genocidal elves in retaliation for the killing of their own people. It's not like grandma and grandpa meeting at a dance and getting married three weeks later. There's nothing romantic about it.
Amedahast came to Cormyr knowing very little of the Forest Kingdom's history and lore--and certainly less of its legends. Recall the catechism of rulers that she endured from Baerauble when we first meet her in Cormyr: A Novel; even the most rudimentary of facts are still being drilled into her. Other, more weighty matters are learned later.
Crowned heads and Royal Magicians in Cormyr learn about certain things (such as the events on Solider's/Jester's Green--both those involving Keolan Dracohorn and the Bleth massacre, as well as Ander Obarskyr's folly and countless other things) once their succession is assured and they've been judged capable of handling the knowledge and the wisdom it's meant to convey.
So yes, Baerauble told her about these and many other things... later.
If you mean "was she familiar with the incarnation of Mystra known as Myrjala," then the answer is "no."
If you mean "was Amedahast a worshiper of Mystra," the answer is undoubtedly "yes."
If you mean "was Amedahast favored by the Lady of Mysteries," the answer is "probably, almost certainly so."
If you mean "was Amedahast a Chosen of Mystra," the answer is "NDA cloudy; ask again later." [In other words: Maybe so, maybe no, but either way, I wouldn't be able to say.]
I did not say that Elminster had no dealings with any of the Royal Magicians of Cormyr. I did not say that he did not have a hand in steering some of them to their eventual tasks and decisions. What I said was "Elminster did not train all of Cormyr's Mages Royal. In fact, he trained only one of its Royal Magicians: Vangerdahast."
Perhaps it was not Amedahast that learned from Elminster, but the other way round.
Elminster did not train all of Cormyr's Mages Royal. In fact, he trained only one of its Royal Magicians: Vangerdahast.
1) Baeruable was trained in magic before taking on the job, and also studied under Alea Dahast (his future bride).
2) Amedahast studied under Baerauble
3) Thanderahast studied under Amedahast
4) Jorunhast studied under Thanderhast
5) Vangerdahast studied under Elminster, among other tutors, in large part because Jorunhast was exiled, and therefore could not train his successor directly (at least, not fully)--because such training involves being inside of Cormyr.
6) Caladnei was not a wizard, but a sorcerer, which altered the whole nature of 'training.' What training she did receive for the post of Royal Magician, however, was done under Vangerdahast.
I won't get into Caladnei's successor, because that's 'current Realms time,' and therefore might step on future lore.
Not all, or even most, of Elminster's Daughters reside in Cormyr. The Old Mage has a few of them and more to spare, and Narnra, Laspeera and Filfaeril account for only three of them. At the time of Elminster's Daughter, you can be assured that there were more illegitimate daughters of Azoun IV inside of Cormyr than descendants of Elminster (or at least, who knew that they were).
Elminster's rank inside Cormyr is murky at best. While Storm Silverhand (for example) is the Marchioness Immerdusk, and holds the appropriate privileges thereof, Elminster holds a place of honor without being called by a particular title (at least, none that I can recall without re-checking sources I haven't read in some time)--in fact, the Prince of Athalanter might have rank, but he oesn't 'outrank' anyone at court. His authority over Caladnei is not absolute, or even mostly complete; it's more of the fact of his experience, his mastership over the Harpers, and his rank in service to Mystra. In Cormyr, the Mage Royal answers only to the Crown.
However, the situation in Elminster's Daughter is special for two reasons:
First, it was the first time in Cormyr's history when a Royal Magician assumed the post with her predecessor alive and within Cormyr's borders. And, despite the fact that Vangerdahast was retired, to assume that he would let anyone truly run the place without him peeking in is... naive.
Second, Caladnei was, without question, given instructions to follow, even if Vangerdahast had been slain or otherwise lost contact. Among those instructions were certainly extra folks to whom Caladnei needed to answer, until she came into her own: the Obarskyr royals, of course, but also Laspeera and Elminster and probably a few others.
Ed said
Once again, I agree with Garen Thal's description of what El and Amedahast learned from each other, and the nature of their working relationship. So consider that confirmed, scribes.
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Looking for all about Cormyr
