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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 18 May 2003 : 07:42:22
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Greetings,
This is just a general wondering-ment(?). I was looking over the stats blocks in the FRCS for both Fzoul and Manshoon, when I noticed something that didn't seem quite right.
Under both entries for the allocation of skills, Manshoon has Knowledge (Moonsea History) +16, and Fzoul has Knowledge (Moonsea Local) +6. Basically what I want to know is - Why is there such a large difference in points allocated when you consider both of their long history with the Moonsea area?.
Also, why does Fzoul only have Knowledge of local history, and not greater history like Manshoon, considering both of their involvement with the wide-spread Zhentarim?.
This isn't a problem, I was simply curious about this, and of course in the end, perhaps the old Sage of Perth has simply wondered a little too much in this case???.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - Alaundo on 21 May 2003 07:54:57
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2003 : 09:15:18
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| Well, I don't know much about the history of these two, but there doesn't have to be an equality in knowledge. I mean, for one thing, I don't even know how to navigate my way around my own town without help of some kind. However, I do know lots of things that others wouldn't. So why wouldn't one of them be concentrating on something that seems more important to him? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
Edited by - Bookwyrm on 18 May 2003 09:17:42 |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2003 : 10:33:37
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A good point, Sage. I would assume that as Fzoul stayed mainly within Zhentil Keep, his knowledge was slightly more limited than that of Manshoon, who "got about a bit more" and more often left the confines of Zhentil Keep.
Although theyre both heavily involved with Zhentarim Operations, Fzoul was based in Zhentil Keep, whilst Manshoon often traveled more due to his command of...of.... damn, was it Darkhold or Citadel of the Raven? 
::suddenly gets that feeling of getting it wrong altogether:: |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Edited by - Lord Rad on 18 May 2003 10:34:04 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2003 : 15:33:19
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Still, it just seems strange, given the fact that Fzoul is now leader of the Zhentarim. Shouldn't he have a wider knowledge of the Moonsea surrounds, given the central role he know holds?.
Isn't it an important part of his position now to know more about what is happening in the greater area of the Moonsea than just Zhentil Keep itself?.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2003 : 20:59:07
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Simply I think it is just a limitation of how game statistics are abstractions of life. Lets look at the INtelligence ability. The sheer fact that Manshoon has 9 POINTS of intelligence MORE than Fzoul (MAnshhon:23 Fzoul: 14) means that Manshoon gets 8 skill points per level, where Fzoul gets 4. THat is QUITE a difference. CLEARLY that means that Manshoon can how shall we say... STUDY more? He can know more simply by being more intelligent. If someone uses all of thier skill points in KNOWLEDGE skills, they will lack in other important areas. Fzoul has greater values in Diplomacy, INtimidate, BLUFFING, and has 10 in sense motive where Manshoon has nothing in that. Fzoul's skills are more tuned to intuition and 'experience' shall we say, and Manshoons are by a very large part tuned to learning.
It would make sense that MANSHOON would just know more about the land. Maybe he is able (due to his increased intelligence) to make a connection between seemingly unrelated facts that Fzoul is just not capable of doing. Maybe Manshoon by virtue of his study skills just retains more than Fzoul does. But at the same time, when there is an interrogation and magic means are not being used, Manshoon cannot read people with the efficiency of Fzoul. Perhaps Manshoon thinks everyone acts a little bit like well Manshoon. By the same token it is possible that Fzoul can place himself in another person's psychology and so figure out what their plans are.
Manshoon has 73 skill points in Knowledge skills. Fzoul has 41 skill points devoted to knowledge. Specifically with local information which includes moonshae and Zhentil keep and Zhentarim knowledge, Manshoon stacks up at 37. Fzoul has 13 with no knowledge skill in Geography. Does he need knowledge skill in Geography? No. WHy?
Fzoul: Tell me again my trusted advisor if we were to launch an attack on Hillsfar, what is that city just north, that we can launch attack from?
Advisor: That would be Yulash sir.
Fzoul: YEs that is right!
OK that was not the best example but you get the point.
Fzoul and MAnshoon have a slew of underlings where they can get advisement . IT helps to have it, and makke no mistake, put in perspective Fzoul is QUITE knowledgeable about the region. Fzoul has a knowledge skill of 6 and 7 in Moonsea and Zhent lore. For a PC to gain that level of knowledge they would haveto specialize for their first couple of levels just to hit that amount. ANd they would proabbly sacrifice other skills. Due to this I think the skill allocation of the two Zhents is quite fair.
Take into account that Manshoon is ALSO 7 levels higher than Fzoul so right there is 56 skill points extra he has. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2003 : 07:35:16
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Thanks mournblade94,
You put this issue in it's proper context. I appreciate your assistance to this query.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2003 : 07:50:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Thanks mournblade94,
You put this issue in it's proper context. I appreciate your assistance to this query.
Yes, now if only we could get him to smile!
(Well, you do sound so serious all the time, Mournblade.  ) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 02:02:43
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Well I DID say that Baalzebul's favoured weapon was a POOP SLINGER...
Wait isn't that a halfling's favoured weapon? OH that's right it is the Orangatangs'. What is the difference between an Orangatang and a halfling anyway? Oh yeah the Orangatang is strong. Strong enough to break a Kender in two.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 04:11:43
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| Nevermind, I stand corrected. Sounds like you've participated in nonsense contests! |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 06:04:07
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In response to Mournblade's view on the subject, here I add my own.
In the aftermath of the destruction of Zhentil Keep due to Cyric, Fzoul actually travelled to quite a few destinations around the Moonsea region. A good example is meeting Selfaril in Mulmaster to cement an alliance. A second example would be the forging of the Sceptre with Teldorn in Mintarn (although Mintarn is not around the Moonsea). This might contribute to Fzoul having 6 or 7 in Moonsea (local).
Manshoon on the other hand, has been hiding his stasis clones all over the place over the years (all the way to Westgate and the Undermountain no less). Correct me if I am wrong, Manshoon actually did plan to occupy Yulash against Hillsfar. Most of the politics around the Moonsea region was partly, if not wholly, credited to Manshoon. Fzoul was merely the religious head of Bane (and Cyric and Xvim) before the destruction of Zhentil Keep. Apparently he was not much active then.
Of course, Fzoul would have more ranks in his Knowledge (religion) than Manshoon. It all balances out to what they are over the years.
The second argument is very easy. Simply put, the creators of the FR campaign just stuck some random numbers in the skill ranks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 08:43:40
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This is pretty much similar to the conclusions that I just came to.
Thanks for the input Leona.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2003 : 09:03:06
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| Topic aside, what happened to the third leg, Semmemnon? Apparently Darkhold now has a new management team consisting of Dag Zoreth and the Pereghost (not that they are happy with each other). |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 00:39:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Nevermind, I stand corrected. Sounds like you've participated in nonsense contests!
Bookwyrm you have NO IDEA of the tangents I am capable of weaving...
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 11:30:14
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Tangent: A line that intersects a circle at only one point, which reminds me, I'm going on a trip to Timbuctu and I'm taking apples, a bear, three cantalopes . . . .
Paraphrased from the 'Top 10 Faulty Calculus Definitions.' |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2003 : 12:15:24
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Leona said -
quote:
Topic aside, what happened to the third leg, Semmemnon? Apparently Darkhold now has a new management team consisting of Dag Zoreth and the Pereghost (not that they are happy with each other).
Basically with Fzoul's increase in power and influence within the Zhentarim, he has expressed a notion of little tolerance for anyone who would oppose him - namely Sememmon. It is said that after Fzoul made his intentions clear, both Sememmon and Ashemmi fled Darkhold before Fzoul could make a move against the wizard.
It is also written that Sememmon enacted this course mainly because he realised he would be unable to maintain Darkhold's survival against Fzoul and it's original base of operations to the east (Zhentil Keep).
Hope that helps,
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2003 : 03:48:04
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I know that in Cloak & Dagger, Steven Schend was angling toward having Semmemmon get very close with the drow of Sshamath - with the idea that the Manshoon Wars (if they hadn't been nipped in the bud by 3E) would have created two lots of Zhentarim, separated on religious grounds (i.e. Semmemmon and the Cyric worshipping Zhents in Darkhold v. Fzoul and the Xvim worshipping Zhents in Zhentil Keep). Steven had often mused when brainstroming on C&D was going on that the Realms reflected little religious 'tension' given the widespread, opposed faiths to be found there. C&D wass intended to be a building block for building that kind of religious war/jihad/holy conflict/ crusades type aspect to FR campaigns.
To get back to my original reason for posting: I'd say that Semmemmon is lying low in the City of Dark Weavings, Sshamath.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2003 : 08:28:42
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That's interesting, thanks for information Mr Krashos. You have illuminated a lesser known part of the history concerning Sememmon.
Is there any intention to build upon the information about Sememmon and his now probable refuge (the City of Dark Weavings) since his departure?.
Also, since I can't remember at the moment, and I can't search my books since I am still at work, can anyone recall how his lover Ashemmi, came into his life?.
Thanks in advance
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Leona
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2003 : 11:06:36
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| I remember Ashemmi was originally of good alignment but she was converted to evil align by some magical item. The curse was removed but out of her own free will, she stayed evil. She was later apprenticed to Sememmon |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 21:16:05
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Master Sage,
My take on those particular kinds of knowledge is that history as it relates to Manshoon, and local relates to Fzoul, is I think more of an angle on how they are using their knowledge.
Manshoon, being an Archmage, was looking at things through the academic lens, whereas Fzoul was looking at things from more of a people/political perspective. Not to say that Manshoon wasn't political of course, but I think the belief was a generalization of priests being more involved in peoples daily lives and knowing their "flock" more than perhaps an archmage would. That is my take on it.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Greetings,
This is just a general wondering-ment(?). I was looking over the stats blocks in the FRCS for both Fzoul and Manshoon, when I noticed something that didn't seem quite right.
Under both entries for the allocation of skills, Manshoon has Knowledge (Moonsea History) +16, and Fzoul has Knowledge (Moonsea Local) +6. Basically what I want to know is - Why is there such a large difference in points allocated when you consider both of their long history with the Moonsea area?.
Also, why does Fzoul only have Knowledge of local history, and not greater history like Manshoon, considering both of their involvement with the wide-spread Zhentarim?.
This isn't a problem, I was simply curious about this, and of course in the end, perhaps the old Sage of Perth has simply wondered a little too much in this case???.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Fzoul and Manshoon
