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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 04:15:41
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Often, when people do not like a Forgotten Realms product, they will complain about how it lacks the “Realms Feel.”
What, to you, is the Realms Feel? What constitutes the elements of what makes the Realms the Realms? Why do you think these elements are important to the setting?
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"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 04:41:56
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| My first realms novel was Spellfire. That novel captures the tone of the realms to me. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 04:44:01
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The Realms, for lack of a better term, fits the definition of "high fantasy" better than other campaign settings. I like it for the fact that there are few enough wizards to make them special, but enough so that you can actually purchase some of the magic items you need. It's also low magic enough that there aren't teleportation spheres everywhere, nor are the flying cities the norm (okay, they're getting there).
What, in my mind, isn't the realms? Things that are viciously low magic (a few settings, although Greyhawk tends to get awfully close to this in my mind), or ridiculously high magic (Eberron, even though "nobody's over 11th-ish level"). Or something that is an overreaching "ALL good versus ALL evil" sort of thing (Dragonlance).
To me, the Realms is about power play. This power isn't necessarily epic in proportions, but affects the populace. The campaign is "alive" so to speak. This means that even Elminster will die when his time comes (I personally like him, but I understand why others don't).
What makes a product not Realms-ish is hard to say. Depends on where you are, and how things interact. What products, specifically, do you feel aren't realms-y?
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 05:12:59
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To say a novel or game product has a "Realms feel" means different things for different people. As a general, basic statement, saying that a product lacks a "Realms feel" means that it doesn't seem like a proper fit for the Forgotten Realms; it's somehow dishonest to the setting, or missing something that the speaker has defined as a hallmark of the setting.
For me, "Realms feel" entails an attention to detail and to the living, progressing nature of the world. The people that live and breathe in the Realms need to be treated as "real," insofar as any fictional character can be real; emotions and motivations exist, and not merely for the purpose of driving the plot or adventure in which the characters appear. Locales maintain their spirit, characters maintain their voice, and there's a respect for the setting and the "people" that live there. Realms feel, at its very core, is a respect for the Forgotten Realms as a living, breathing, shared world, in which powerful characters live, work, and die. And some of them can hurl fireballs. Yes, even when no writers are paying attention to them. A reader that comments that a product lacks a "Realms feel" is similar to a New Yorker watching a film that is set in a fictional New York (but filmed in Vancouver) and saying "That's not really Herald Square." Something's missing--at it's core, something's not honest about it.
That said, I think that the Realms needs a certain mystery to it: a feeling that the stories and adventures aren't following some grand plot or universal scheme. The idea of the Realms is that we're all just peeking in through a small, brief window of a world that continues to go on even when none of us are watching. Adventures dig into Undermountain even in the years between editions. Mages raised towers before Elminster was born and will do so long after he is dead. Royal families marry, nobles are assassinated, and heroes fall unmourned.
Of course, many settings have their Fellowships, their Heroes of the Lance. These are the sorts of adventures that are so epic in scale that they define the setting. So much so, on occasion, that they make the exploits of any other group all but meaningless.
The feel of the Forgotten Realms is that there is so much going on, at every moment, that any group can make themselves heroes. And while they may not be banishing the Dark Queen or casting the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom, the beauty of the setting (for me) is that the heroics of a group need not be so "epic" to be meaningful.
My electrum and a half, though. Other views may vary. |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 06:04:33
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| As I understand it, the "Realms feel" is in the strong sense of individualism and liberal values among the heroes. Just as important is the breath-taking level of beautiful detail in every aspect of the world. So Realms products should allow players to be what they want to be, do what they want to do, in a world that can seem "real". Perhaps the products that miss the mark most often are CRPGs, which always forces players in specific directions, and sometimes treats the Realms as a generic fantasy setting. |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
515 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 13:48:18
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This is a very interesting topic. I always think to myself when running my campaign am I conveying to my players this is Faerun? None of them are FR players most have just played in homebrew campaigns in the past so its very important to me that I convey it well to them.
The Realms to me when I run it is all about the content. When adventurers go to a town is it under Zhent influence, is there a Thayan enclave, is there a temple to Helm, is the town in the Heartlands, is it in the North, is there a portal nearby, whats the weather like, do the moon cycles fit the day, etc. The Realms has to have some of the largest, if not the largest, amount of content of any campaign setting. This also makes it very difficult to manage with out missing details. Once you have these details in place then it requires an understanding of how to RP those things and how to convey them to the player.
If I had to to condense it down though I'd say magical portals, the lands, the factions, the dragons, the known npcs and the presence of the gods plays the largest roles in making things realms like. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 16:16:20
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I think that (in a similar manner as Screrar points out) the 'Realms feel' depends allot on what products you actually encountered first in you exploration of the realms. This tends to set the standard and as you move to new standards (or new editions) people just coming into the realms via those products may have a slightly different take on this elusive 'feel'.
For myself the 'feel' was strongly established with the old gray boxed set and the subsequent FR1 - FR16 (Waterdeep and the North to The Shining South)series of game accessories. Though it was around FR7 (Hall of Heroes) that the series shifted to 2E rules I was captivated by the artists, font style, monochromatic illustrations and parchment style paper that was used in most of these products (and how that related back to the style in the Gray Box. Of course there was always the writing of lots of lore to look forward to as well. However as more material came out for 2E, there was a shift away from this original style. Not to say it was bad (the hardcover Forgotten Realms Adventures is still one of my favorite books), but it lacked the original feel that I cut my teeth on.
Today, while technically still the Realms, 3E Realms is a different beast for the most part. No more box sets, lots of heavy hard covers, different art styles (and of course bigger prices). For the most part, the writing and lore keeps me coming back, but I find I hunt and peck for it now between buffets of crunch. But again, for many people just coming into the realms, that same crunch is part of their 'realms feel'.
Excuse me now while I put myself out to pasture over yonder hill... 
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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MaxKaladin
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 19:35:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
For myself the 'feel' was strongly established with the old gray boxed set and the subsequent FR1 - FR16 (Waterdeep and the North to The Shining South)series of game accessories. Though it was around FR7 (Hall of Heroes) that the series shifted to 2E rules I was captivated by the artists, font style, monochromatic illustrations and parchment style paper that was used in most of these products (and how that related back to the style in the Gray Box. Of course there was always the writing of lots of lore to look forward to as well. However as more material came out for 2E, there was a shift away from this original style. Not to say it was bad (the hardcover Forgotten Realms Adventures is still one of my favorite books), but it lacked the original feel that I cut my teeth on.
I agree, especially about there being a shift away from the original feel of the Realms. That's been the biggest problem I've had trying to "come back" to the Realms as a setting for my gaming. They've drifted from that original feel in a lot of ways, but the one that really seems to stand out for me (and which is my biggest problem with the current Realms) is the escalating power level. The 3e Realms sometimes seems like it's someone at WotC felt like they needed to make the Realms live up to the stereotype many non-fans have of the setting being the sort of place where there's an artifact in every bedroom, people casually throw meteor swarms in bar brawls and you can't take a trip to the smallest village market without running into Drizzt, Elminster or some other popular "big name" NPC.
The Realms that captivated me as a teenager in 1987 had little of that. Elminster was a narrator for some of the earliest products but gave no hint that he was anything other than a sage who visited strange lands and wrote about them. There wasn't nearly as much canon then and much of the Realms was a mysterious place with everything presented as rumors and hearsay on those old faux-parchment pages. Even if you had read the entries for a particular region, you didn't know what to expect if your character went there because there was so much left unsaid -- and you wanted to find out what you'd find because the original entries contained so many tantalizing hints and rumors that you just had to go and find out what the truth was. The modern Realms seems to be so well defined as to be hindering. It sometimes seems if I can't find a corner of the Realms anymore that hasn't had some sourcebook, module, novel or computer game define it to the point where one can't make it ones own anymore -- and so much of that new detail seems to involve yet another threat that only the most powerful of epic heroes could hope to face it. That whole sense of wonder and mystery the old Realms had just seems to be lost.
Sometimes I think I need to put myself out to pasture, too. Sometimes, I'm tempted to get an old grey-box set and use that as the basis for my campaign and forget anything published after 1st edition.
Oh well, times change. The point is that the feel of the Realms, in my opinion, has changed.
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 20:41:04
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I want Realms stories to be colorful, fast-paced and humorous. I want Realms stories to involve demon lords one moment, and commoners the next.
I want my Realms to be so busy that Elminster and his like do not have time to save everybody that needs saving, the Realms is in constant need of new heroes.
I have not problem with RSE and plots from novels.
For me is part of the creative process to embrace and use the established lore, instead just making things up. If I want complete control I play a homebrew setting.
The Realms is for me somewhere between Spellfire and Baldur's Gate II, which makes "Hidden Dragon, Crouching Tiger" a better Realms movie than LOTR.
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Edited by - Snotlord on 26 Jun 2007 10:15:22 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 22:29:26
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Hooge question. It's easier to give examples (I think this is the best short one) than explain them, easier to draw broad generalizations than the many small intangibles -- such as how folk think and act individually and as societies -- that make up what most of the Realms feel is. Someone could and should write a better summary, like the one that opens the Eberron Campaign Setting book. I don't even have time to sketch one.
But these are all important:
'as if real' worldbuilding
intertwined events (the Weave)
mix of picaresque sword and sorcery with high fantasy
open-hearted, fun, humanist, compassionate
egalitarian (local, not teleontological value)
librarian's love, lore and memory
proper names and language
roleplaying over rules
no cheap flashy cool
particular kind of immanent history |
Edited by - Faraer on 25 Jun 2007 22:34:44 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2007 : 00:37:43
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I lot of great comments here. I agree with much of what I've read, but I'll give an answer (though maybe not THE answer) of my own:
I think the best Realms stories are the ones that focus on people (not "earth-shattering" plots), and the smaller slices of a greater whole. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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EvilKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2007 : 03:21:46
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quote:
Hold, and listen well! If ye heed not a word of mine in all your days, remember this: Faerun needs its heroes.
I'm one such to some, though I am old and battered and have left a heap of bloody, bitter mistakes behind me high enough to bury empires. Your sword must flash beside my faltering spells, for Faerun faces new, rising dooms that I cannot face alone. Our homelands stand in worse peril now than ever before. Old evils stir. or return unlooked-for, looming like storm clouds over the darkened hills. Strife and change tear asunder nations and cities. Who can see who shall rise over all? Even the monks of far Candlekeep, who guard well the words of the prophet Alaundo who is never wrong, cannot know.
It might just be ye, if your swords and spells are ready and your heart bold. Faerun needs ye, lest we fall unguarded to the dangers all around.
Adventurer, I am Elminster, and I say to ye that these forgotten realms are yours to discover, reforge, and defend, yours to make anew in winning your own crown. Go forth and take up arms against the perils that beset us!
-FRCS p4.
From Ed:
quote:
The Realms is a vast, very detailed world with a long and still-vigorously-unfolding history, and many, many characters. The Realms IS those characters, and if a DM doesn't present it as a vast, everchanging webwork of intrigues and clashing interests, where caravans move from A to B for good reasons, and rulers (unless mad) don't operate in a vacuum of whims but grapple with issues (the competing interests of their subjects, not just attacks from rival realms) small and large every day, the DM isn't really showing players the Realms.
Any style of gaming can be accommodated by the Realms, even the simplest dungeon-crawls or "exploring your own small village and the haunted keep on the hill," so those who play in it need not memorize huge reams of facts or have its entire bewildering complexity dumped on their heads at any time - - but unlike all of the other available published settings, the Realms has a LOT of detail available for the DM who wants to know WHY two noble families have been feuding for centuries, or who around this crowded royal council table has family or business ties or personal loves and hatreds with who else around the table, or what will happen diplomatically, as one consequence leads to another, if the PCs murder this envoy and frame a local bailiff for the killing (or the bailiff frames the PCs). In the Realms, people live 'real lives.' They need food (and usually money), they need water, they have to defecate somewhere, they usually have to obey local laws or customs (or flee to live "outlaw"), and almost all of that has been covered somewhere, in Realms fiction or DRAGON articles or Realms gaming products.
The trade routes (and winds, currents, shortages, and exports that affect them) are outlined, and a lot of Faerűnian laws and customs, slang, and even fashions have been written about: if you love detailed lore, or have a need to plunder that detail for your own gaming world or for any other purpose, it's there. This much detail isn't what all gamers want or like, but unlike most other settings, the Realms offers you a choice, because the information is there; we've done the work.
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Danali Index |
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Alexander Heppe
Seeker
Germany
62 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2007 : 09:58:04
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For me, the "Realms Feel" is that, whatever you are doing, someone else has either done it before, is doing it right now or is trying to influence your way of doing it or trying to change your results.
What I mean by that is that Faerűn is a world where you can feel that many paths have been tread on before. A rich history, many lost realms, empires and city-states, legends of old that every now and then seem to find their way into "your" (read: your DM's gaming table) present day Faerűn.
It is a feeling that many cultures, many races, many monsters have pursued conflicting goals over the course of millenia, and what is left is what you have to live with now. Trade being the life-blood of Faerűn, wares being shipped or -better even- caravaned in all directions. Old Empires fighting over these trade routes, as do city states, ursurpers and so on. Adding to this game are the manyfold global and local players, groups of influence, like Harpers, Zhentarim, Iron Throne, Red Wizards (cont. as you may) so that Trade and politics merge on a larger scale, always indirectly affected by the ages past. Now, even if this would be enough already, we also add the numerous Powers and Demipowers of the Faerűnian Pantheon, the intrigues and heresies of their respective churches and we finally have the epic, eternal struggle for the secrets of ages past, where every "player" tries to improve their influence, that is the Realms to me.
Of course, you can additionally always describe the beauty of it's landscapes, the local quirks of the population, the monsters in the wilderness, the stumbling upon ruins or the intrigues of many a court and/or noble house, but then, whatever you do, you will still always have just scratched the surface of the Faerűnian DETAIL, that many authors have put into this incredible setting, showing their respect and dedication to the world that Ed began...
Alex |
Edited by - Alexander Heppe on 26 Jun 2007 10:02:11 |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 04:21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
...is in the strong sense of individualism and liberal values...
Funny, I always drew the exact opposite.
For me, it's a grab bag. Somewhere in there is exactly what you want, you just have to find it. |
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 17:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
...is in the strong sense of individualism and liberal values...
Funny, I always drew the exact opposite.
Really? What led you to that conclusion? To me it's always seemed open-minded and tolerant (as a whole, there are always exceptions). |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2007 : 18:12:56
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In answering questions like this, it's really easy to project one's own preferences onto the setting, or to cite things that aren't really specific to it -- which doesn't mean it doesn't implement them in a distinctive way, but one then has to try to describe that.
I wouldn't say the Realms are more individualistic than social; 'liberal values' I'd broadly agree with, but that word 'liberal' means a range of different things, inside and outside the United States. |
Edited by - Faraer on 30 Jun 2007 18:14:33 |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2007 : 23:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by ReefyWhat led you to that conclusion?
I'm not going to get into that; people are very touchy and such things always lead to flame wars, name calling and moderators locking a thread.
But I do stick with my grab-bag metaphore. |
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 17:37:36
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I hope I did not kill the thread. I’m just not going to get into that, why I don’t think it supports liberalism, here and now.
However, in an effort to keep the discussion going, lets change the tack a bit.
What do you think is a FR supplement or book that has the FR label but does not carry the FR feel?
Why?
For example, those hardbound comic FR comic books that came out a few years ago? Those are often described as “not having the FR feel.” Why is that? What were they lacking?
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"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 20:30:34
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| Well there are several books that are varied in the Realms feel, but to me the Great Glacier supplement would be the clearest example, as we are not talking about the various sub-settings (Kara-Tur etc). The book has very little to do with the Realms and is (in my own opinion) a somewhat missed opportunity. The book is a generic Arctic setting with a detailed Eskimo-like people. The trouble is that the region is not very interestingly developed and few ties to the Realms are made. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 23:15:34
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| The most recent example for me would be the Watercourse trilogy, mainly because it attempts to thrust Objectivism--in a heavy-handed fashion--into a setting where it doesn't really work too well (in my opinion). Note that I agree with some Objectivist principles, I just don't think it works well in the FR (for example, it's an atheistic philosophy). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Jul 2007 23:17:06 |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2007 : 16:01:59
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| I don't remember the name of the book, but it is about Tethyr and has a blue eyed paladin orc in it. That was poor on the Realms Feel. |
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2007 : 16:42:22
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| You are talking about The War in Tethyr. I know many people did not like it, but I enjoyed it. It may be that I like Milans writing style ( I read some of his earlier non-Realms books also) or that it is near to my own "Realmsfeel", but it is a pure subjective judgement. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2007 : 18:27:28
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I would never include the Watercourse trilogy in a list of novels that lacks the Realms feel. Quite the opposite, this series cross-references lore from so many Realms sources, I feel like a kid in a candy store reading each chapter.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The most recent example for me would be the Watercourse trilogy, mainly because it attempts to thrust Objectivism--in a heavy-handed fashion--into a setting where it doesn't really work too well (in my opinion). Note that I agree with some Objectivist principles, I just don't think it works well in the FR (for example, it's an atheistic philosophy).
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2007 : 01:54:00
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As we've seen in the past, when personal opinions enter into discussions about Realmslore, some sparks usually start to flare. Thus, I'm placing a Mod Reminder here...
Let's try to remember fellow scribes, that both Brian and Rino are expressing their own personal opinions on the state of the "Watercourse" books. Please don't use them as a basis for debating an individual scribe's opinions on the novels.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2007 : 14:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
What do you think is a FR supplement or book that has the FR label but does not carry the FR feel?
Some straightforward examples are FR9 Bloodstone Lands, FR14 The Great Glacier, FOR1 Draconomicon, FA2 Nightmare Keep, FRQ2 Hordes of Dragonspear, Netheril: Empire of Magic, Elminster’s Ecologies, Giantcraft, The Ruins of Undermountain II, much of Aurora’s Whole Realms Catalogue, and more novels than I want to try and list.quote:
Why?
Mostly because they were written by people who didn't care, know about and/or understand the Realms.quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I would never include the Watercourse trilogy in a list of novels that lacks the Realms feel. Quite the opposite, this series cross-references lore from so many Realms sources, I feel like a kid in a candy store reading each chapter.
I haven't read the Watercourse books, but I have read Once around the Realms, which also compiles lore from lots of books. It takes names and events, ignores their underlying purpose and nature, and repurposes them for its own slapstick literary use. One could argue that it's a good novel, though I wouldn't. It isn't a good Realms novel because seemingly it doesn't try to be. |
Edited by - Faraer on 08 Jul 2007 22:56:06 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2007 : 22:17:19
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Brian, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. I think the underlying philosophy of a book is important, too (as important as lore references) and the Watercourse series espouses a philosophy that I felt not only doesn't fit well with the Realms, but with D&D in general. A character actually states--and the author agrees with this character--that anything worth doing is done for and by one man. I've always felt part of the point of this setting is that things are accomplished when people act as a team (and often for the benefit of many people), and this trilogy takes the opposite view (large groups of people are ineffectual if not downright venal). The characters in this series who argue on behalf of working as a team and for the benefit of many people are all villains! I just think that's a strange argument to make in a novel for a game setting that uses a rules system in which no one character can do everything, and where group play is considered the ideal.
In the spirit of what Faraer said, I would argue that the Watercourse trilogy doesn't try to be a good Realms trilogy so much as a Realmsified version of Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, complete with strikingly similar characters and plot points (ie. Ivar Devorast = Howard Roark).
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 08 Jul 2007 22:36:19 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2007 : 23:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Elminster’s Ecologies
Out of sheer curiosity, what was it about this product that turned you off? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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initiate
Learned Scribe
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2007 : 23:14:41
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I have not read the Watercourse books yet, but I agree with RF that aggressively individual accomplishment sort of goes against the tone of the setting. One product, (though admittedly not a sourcebook or novel), that I think illustrates this is the official out-of-the-box campaign from Neverwinter Nights. My reasoning is based on two points:
I haven't got the game's rules ready to hand, but iirc they feature some rather ... interesting adaptations of the 3.0 ruleset. Most prominent among these are the things which monsters are and are not immune to. Certain golems, for instance, don't seem to be immune to magic. The practical upshot of these changes is that the boundaries between base classes become rather blurred, and the game is quite easy to solo, which is a good thing considering that:...
In the original game and its first expansion you may only take one "henchman" with you at any given time; (they're not even "companions" or "party members"; they're "henchmen".) Throughout most of the games these henchmen possess virtually no meaningful personality or dialogues of the type found in Baldur's Gate 2, (exceptions, of course, do exist.) They are, for the most part, stupid, directable in fairly rudimentary ways, and generally not much use save as walking trap-triggering devices. In short, here again the game devalues the idea of working as a group in the single player game.
This emphasis on single-handedly overcoming mighty challenges, (challenges amongst which ravening hordes of beasties feature far to prominently for a Realms product, with all the subtleties, layered intrigues, etc that the setting has on offer), just didn't feel right to me. As mentioned above, I think that part of this can be chalked up to the Realms's deep roots in D & D, which is at its heart a team game, a mentality which inevitably trickles over into Faerun.
The on-line component of NwN is something which I view as an entirely different beast, and which I never really dabbled in, and thus can't really comment on.
Fascinating topic, btw. I'll type up some more thoughts later if I think of anything.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2007 : 23:43:25
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quote:
Originally posted by initiate
This emphasis on single-handedly overcoming mighty challenges, (challenges amongst which ravening hordes of beasties feature far to prominently for a Realms product, with all the subtleties, layered intrigues, etc that the setting has on offer), just didn't feel right to me. As mentioned above, I think that part of this can be chalked up to the Realms's deep roots in D & D, which is at its heart a team game, a mentality which inevitably trickles over into Faerun.
Ah, yes, the NWN official campaign is notorious for being "aggressively individualistic", as you aptly put it (with the help of one rudimentary henchman--not "companion", henchman). Granted, I love NWN, its potential, and the many great modules it spawned, but the emphasis on a single hero over a party of heroes was never very much in line with D&D, IMO. Luckily, NWN2 was designed to be much more of a party-based game. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mark S.
Forgotten Realms Author
60 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 20:03:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
which makes "Hidden Dragon, Crouching Tiger" a better Realms movie than LOTR.
That's a good point.
So if you were trying to describe the Realms to a friend who had never read any Realms novels or even played D&D, what movies or other books would you compare it to? What movies or novels seem to mirror "the Realms feel" in your mind?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 21:46:54
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There are two Realms, IMHO, and what you folks are disagreeing on seems to be on which you prefer.
There is the overall political environment of the Realms, where sometimes 'politics makes strange bedfellows' - In that Realms Ex-Harpers ally with Zantarrim, and Elminster makes deals with Red Wizards. This is basically the 'novel' Realms, in many respects, where the actions of a single individual, or a pair of individuals, changes the course of history (like a Dark Elf who fights a thousand Orcs...).
Then there is the 'Game Realms', the one from the sourcebooks. All of that other stuff mentioned above is just background. It's about a party of adventurers who have to defend a local village, one that probably very few people have heard of. Its the realms where a few friends stop at an Inn for a brew, and a group of assassins burst in trying to kill some unknown personage at another table. Its the realms where finding a child's Teddy Bear is just as important to the hero as saving the world. These many bands of adventurers don't move planets and shake kingdoms, they chip away at the small evils, hoping to make a better place for everyione... and just perhaps, make some cash along the way. 
Somewhere in the middle is where these worlds collide, and adventuring groups get 'caught-up' in the kindom's politics. This is when our PCs go from being local heroes to the stuff of legends, and they themselves become part of the backdrop that is the Realms.
So you see, its really all a difference in playing style. The Realms has something for everyone, and there really isn't any single single 'feel'.
Except, just maybe, that adventure is always just around the corner... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2007 07:18:07 |
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What is the Realms Feel?
