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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 04:08:46
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Apparently the new Expedition to the Demonweb Pits has the 3.5 version of the Cambion in it, which is a specialized form of half fiend , and the stats for them are posted in a download at WOTC's site:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/demonwebpits/ExpeditionDemonwebPits__Cambion.zip
Now, in Dragon Magazine 355, James Jacobs gives some 3.5 stats for alu-fiends that he didn't have room for in his Malcanthet article, and they appear on page 10 of that issue.
Hooray . . . I guess Aliisza and Kaanyr Vhok are officially what they have always been . . . 
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6653 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 05:10:52
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And my Impilturian cambions live again. What joy.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 05:36:13
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I wonder if Thomas will stat Aliisza and Kaanyr Vhok in Dragon or on the WOTC site....
*poke*
*poke*
*poke*
Subtle aint I? |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2007 : 05:53:20
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Cambions, Dabuses (??), and other things... Realms can return to the City of Doors, and even more!
I'm so happy.
What makes this so special is it's planar (great wheel) and can be easily used in the Realms (IIRC, it's a Greyhawk adventure). I don't even mind that it's prolly all great wheel (I use that in my realms game, rather than the new one out of preference).
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 13:29:45
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Cambions in Faerūn
... most cambions serve as ambassadors of an Abyssal lord (most often Graz'zt, Orcus, Lolth, or Demogorgon) ...
In Faerūn, Lolth is a deity not living in the Abyss ... *sigh* ... I can already envisage more debates about canon status of Abyssal Lords and deities again. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 13:59:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Cambions in Faerūn
... most cambions serve as ambassadors of an Abyssal lord (most often Graz'zt, Orcus, Lolth, or Demogorgon) ...
In Faerūn, Lolth is a deity not living in the Abyss ... *sigh* ... I can already envisage more debates about canon status of Abyssal Lords and deities again.
Which is why Expedition to the Demon Web pits is a pointless buy for anyone running an FR campaign |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 14:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Cambions in Faerūn
... most cambions serve as ambassadors of an Abyssal lord (most often Graz'zt, Orcus, Lolth, or Demogorgon) ...
In Faerūn, Lolth is a deity not living in the Abyss ... *sigh* ... I can already envisage more debates about canon status of Abyssal Lords and deities again.
Which is why Expedition to the Demon Web pits is a pointless buy for anyone running an FR campaign
We'll see. I ordered it (hey, it is drow stuff ;) ) anyway, as I do think that people are able to convert the basics to FR without much problem. From how I remember what is said about the Demonweb in FC I, one can simply place it within FR cosmology with a few slight and negligible changes. (e.g., NPCs et al) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 14 Apr 2007 14:27:17 |
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boddynock
Learned Scribe
Belgium
258 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 15:49:05
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| It's always possible that there is a portal from the abbyss that leads to the demonweb pits :) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 16:36:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Cambions in Faerūn
... most cambions serve as ambassadors of an Abyssal lord (most often Graz'zt, Orcus, Lolth, or Demogorgon) ...
In Faerūn, Lolth is a deity not living in the Abyss ... *sigh* ... I can already envisage more debates about canon status of Abyssal Lords and deities again.
Which is why Expedition to the Demon Web pits is a pointless buy for anyone running an FR campaign
Except that, according to the War of the Spider Queen series, even if you are going completely by current 3.5 "official" sources, the Demonweb Pits were in the Abyss until the Silence of Lolth. Its just a matter of when you set the adventure. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 21:27:19
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| And it's only pointless if you use WOTC's new confusing are we in the wheel or aren't we cosmology. Yes, even new sourcebooks and Dragon articles confuse the issue even more. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 22:14:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And it's only pointless if you use WOTC's new confusing are we in the wheel or aren't we cosmology. Yes, even new sourcebooks and Dragon articles confuse the issue even more.
Hence why I "adapt" it across. Using the Wheel as the overall (i.e. Planescape) and the Tree as the "local" (what those not truly in the know, know). |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2007 : 22:48:31
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In my campaigns, I once kept the two cosmologies separate and linked them through the Plane of Shadow (not sure if it's how it works in terms of canon now, but the diagram in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes seems to hint at that...)
However, lately I have decided to have ONE 'true' cosmology, and have the FR planes be 'parts of existing Great Wheel planes', and to justify it because 'clueless primes from Faerun have it all wrong in the first place.' That works for me, because frankly, otherwise, the fixes required to the campaign start making the whole separate cosmology thing look really, really ridiculous. In fact, I'm really glad I went that route, because this got me thinking on how we could fix that whole "Realms are separate" debacle!
I, so far, have liked having the FR cosmology separate, but now, as a result of gaming as a player in other people's campaigns, I began wondering "Why??" In a system that can already accomodate ALTERNATE PRIMES, why the hell (no pun intended) did they decide to separate the cosmologies? I decided to explain my newfound ONE solution by having NPCs tell my players "Maybe the planes are not separate, and maybe Ao is to Faerun as what the Lady of Blades is to Sigil" (i.e. a huge overdeity controlling how one can access a plane and if or if not deities can move freely... examples below)
SIGIL
overgod: Lady of Blades/Pain (?) 
cosmology: Great Wheel
jurisdiction: Outlands, on top of the spire...
access: only through an existing portal (no spells, not even natural flying for beings with wings...)
deity travel: no deity travel allowed (deities can't get in, if they somehow do, they get destroyed by overgod Lady of Pain and all their followers everywhere are also instantly destroyed)
FAERUN
overgod: Ao
cosmology: Great Wheel
jurisdiction: some sections of many of Outer planes (some sections of most or all of them), all of these sections being linked by branch-like sections of the Astral in the shape of a Great Tree
access: only through Shadow Plane OR portal from Sigil OR Spelljamming OR through express permission from Ao
deity travel: no deity travel allowed through the barriers of Ao's jurisdiction (i.e. gods cannot go the sections of the Great Wheel uncontrolled by Ao, such as the domains of Oerth's gods, etc.); gods can meet in Cynosure, which is considered neutral ground (not sure if gods can go to Faerun's prime material plane at will, and not sure if they can enter another god's domain or leave theirs entirely... anyone?)
Now, it would be easy to imagine Faerun as being part of the Great Wheel, but with the rest shown above staying the same... One just have to imagine one thing: there is no separate cosmologies.
Seriously: imagine there is only one cosmology... the Great Wheel, ungoverned by anyone. The overgods that reside within it are in essence the very fabric of the 'separate cosmologies' we've assumed, their presence a tangible barriers between planes, such as the Lady of Pain in Sigil (i.e. she establishes rules for gods in essence... she controls a piece of the multiverse real estate that cannot be changed by gods...) Now, imagine Ao is the same, but his barrier encompasses multiple planes, and separates Faerunian deity domains from the rest of the plane they reside into (i.e. imagine the Great Wheel, but with a big incorporeal TREE in it, Ao being the tree! i.e. branches go to SOME planes, but not all of them... sometimes two or three branches go to the same plane, and faerunian assume these are two or three different planes, obviously, heedless that the 2-3 planes are say, all located within the Abyss... and they don't know better because they can't move between Ao's 'branches')
In short, overgods are the gods' babysitters and prevent the whole multiverse to fall apart!  Maybe that's why they're all neutral!
This way one could have his cake and eat it too!!!
PS: sorry if you've already seen something similar to this before... I like the idea a lot!  |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 02:10:21
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| Would it not just be possible to rub out any references to the Demonweb Pits being a layer of the abyss, and use it as it's own plane instead? Not like your players are going to notice the difference when they are knee deep in dead spiders, fighting for their lives against the horde. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 05:24:59
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Boy am I going to get myself into trouble here...
Okay, Warlocko, I completely agree with you. As a matter of fact, I can even cite cannon GREAT WHEEL era lore to this, although it's not FR...
Dragonlance. Just read the old Campaign setting where Takhisis lived in the Abyss (but in reality was in Baator). I know it's got the same separation anxiety as the realms, but this is what I thought of first.
Does it make much sense to separate the Realms from the Great Wheel? Nope. What I've looked at (and have as a pet project that's taking much longer than expected), is the old Realms source books on deities (Powers & Pantheons, Faiths & Avatars, & Demihuman Deities). I am compiling where they were to where they are, and using the "tree" reference (Yggdrasil on the Great Wheel), connecting all of the planes of the realms. So, once one gets to the "real" cosmology, they just follow the proper branch and go where they need to go. Although Yggdrasil doesn't technically touch a few places, it doesn't exclude them from existance either. It just makes them much harder to reach.
Back on Topic:
Where are the most cambions in the realms? I'd like to know, but my easy guesses are around the Fey'ri and Hellgate keep primarily. I could even see a couple in the Zhentarim, too.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 05:47:16
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Seeing as how Cambions always have a mortal mother and they always die at child birth I cant imagine even the most evil woman volunteering to carry a Cambion child
This would more than likely mean that most Cambion spawn from rape as such they would be most commonly found in areas where demons have run amok ie Hellsgate, Narfell, Impiltur
Incidently this new rule screws up Vhoks background as his mother was a Marlinth not a female Half fiend or Tiefling and she didnt die in child birth
I havent got Dragon 355 so Im guessing that the Alu Fiends are produced when a mortal male breeds with a Female Demon (Succubus or Marlinth)Alu fiends can probably be found in the same areas as I listed for the Cambion, in addition there may be some Alu fiends living in Waterdeep thanks to the Dark Enchanters sexual exploits
By the way apparently the Cambion article is broken and is going to be revised (Check out the ability modifiers for Characters to see what I mean)
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I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 15 Apr 2007 05:50:26 |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 07:53:08
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The cambion article does contain a number of mechanical errors including odd-numbered ability adjustments and incorrect favoured class (assassin is a PrC so not an appropriate favoured class). It also mentions that they serve demons but are likely to take the diabolist PrC (um, which applies to devils) and that they have a predilection for disguise and a Cha score so low that they would be utterly unconvincing.
I wonder if these things were caught before publication? |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 08:30:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Cambions in Faerūn
... most cambions serve as ambassadors of an Abyssal lord (most often Graz'zt, Orcus, Lolth, or Demogorgon) ...
In Faerūn, Lolth is a deity not living in the Abyss ... *sigh* ... I can already envisage more debates about canon status of Abyssal Lords and deities again.
Why is this even remotely necessary?
"Most Cambions..." not all cambions.
See? Simple.
Dungon Masters, not Dungeon Lackeys. Just use your big brains and there's exactly no problem.
As for me I want this book to juice up my own Realms campaign. If I can get more information to help me make drow even nastier, deadlier and just plain more fun to hate then I'll be happy, regardless of the book's status as a catch-all or an FR book.
If it's useful then it just doesn't matter.
J. Grenemyer
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldnt believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 10:04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Cambions in Faerūn
... most cambions serve as ambassadors of an Abyssal lord (most often Graz'zt, Orcus, Lolth, or Demogorgon) ...
In Faerūn, Lolth is a deity not living in the Abyss ... *sigh* ... I can already envisage more debates about canon status of Abyssal Lords and deities again.
Why is this even remotely necessary?
"Most Cambions..." not all cambions.
See? Simple.
Dungon Masters, not Dungeon Lackeys. Just use your big brains and there's exactly no problem.
As for me I want this book to juice up my own Realms campaign. If I can get more information to help me make drow even nastier, deadlier and just plain more fun to hate then I'll be happy, regardless of the book's status as a catch-all or an FR book.
If it's useful then it just doesn't matter.
J. Grenemyer
I was speaking about Lolth being mentioned as an Abyssal Lord, which she is not when it comes to Cambions in Faerūn. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 16:09:19
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Okay, MY take on Lolth (please take with a grain of salt, as I've not read the War of the Spider Queen series... yet, but I've read some of the timelines given):
BEFORE the Demonweb pits and Abyss were separated, Lolth held a special status as both a Demon Princess and Deity. The fact that she was a deity allowed her more control, but she was still at least partially tied to the Abyss as it was. She then separated her plane from the Abyss, not only in a vie for more power and to trick the rest of the drow pantheon, but also to remove the "Demon Princess" stigma from herself. She now has more "loyal" demons (other than the handmaidens) serving her, and she doesn't have to deal with Blood War politics or Abyssal distractions (she's a deity, they were mere distractions).
Now, she's pretty well only dealing with other beings as she wants to be dealt with, as a deity.
Personally, I think I can reconcile everything together. Mind you, I'm a great wheel kinda DM. Besides, who DOESN'T want cambions & alu-fiends serving Lolth? 
/d
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"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 18:55:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I was speaking about Lolth being mentioned as an Abyssal Lord, which she is not when it comes to Cambions in Faerūn.
Right. I understand that. There's still no problem that I can see, though.
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldnt believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 08:52:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
I was speaking about Lolth being mentioned as an Abyssal Lord, which she is not when it comes to Cambions in Faerūn.
Right. I understand that. There's still no problem that I can see, though.
Lolth is no Abyssal Lord in the Realms. She is a deity, and actually always has been ... as opposed to the Core version. Maybe one can interprete it as a title only, but heck ... can you imagine the debates about Orcus being actually a deity, or the rest of that list? Hence, had they spared Lolth being mentioned among the other rabble, no debate would have arisen - for the Realms. The "purisists of the written word" will make sure that we know of that line for years to come though ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 11:26:55
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| Lolth was named "tanar'ri" by Corellon and cast out of Arvandor, and she was indeed a demon lord until she clawed her way back to becoming a deity to the drow, according to Evermeet, Island of Elves. Game rules may change, but unless specifically stated, no canon lore alters unless its later contradicted, and nothing has ever said that Lolth was never a demon lord ever, meaning that this aspect of her history is intact. Further, while the planes in 3.5 are set up the way they are, the Demonweb Pits, in the War of the Spider Queen series, were in the Abyss until Lolth wrenched her plane free after her Silence. |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 19:06:35
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Any "cosmology" is simply a mortal mind's attempt to understand something even the gods don't truely understand. The planes are too vast and complex to be classified, codified, and set down on a handy map. My feeling is that because it's impossible for anyone to understand the true nature of the planes, they take shape from peoples expectations. A semblance of reality is created from the general concensus. Because most folk accept the Great Wheel concept, that's what they find. On Toril however, some "Genius" decided that the planes had a different shape and form, and set them down on paper. After centuries of this info spreading arround, this idea is the cosmology folks from Faerun expect, and that concensus creates a torilians perception of the planes. It's quite possible Ao himself set down the idea to try to issolate his domains from outside interference.
For me the location of the Demonweb Pits isn't important. The very act of placing it somewhere is again an attempt to understand a concept beyond understanding. It's there, it's beyond the world we know as Toril. Nothing else truely matters. Then how does one get there? By using Infinate stairs, interdimensional Taverns, and assorted portals that don't rely on any need to map it out.
As for Lolth, I tend to agree with KnightErrant's offering. Auranshee was indeed a goddess of the Seldarine, but when Corellon cast her out he removed that divinity and she was reduced to the status of a powerful Demon. I've always believed that such powerful demons can attain at least demi-god status thru worship, and Lolth was able to command far greater worship than most other demon lords have been able to, bringing the entire drow race of not only Toril but countless other worlds under her sway. Perhaps due to her previous status as a Goddess it was easier for her to regain it, which would explain why she was more successfull than say Orcus or Demogorgon (Who also have large cults of worshipers on countless primes)
It's all speculation, but it's how I make sense out of this stuff and prevent it from confusing me. After all, with all this stuff that's supposedly impossible to understand.. speculation is all we have! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 19:20:16
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| Folks, it seems to me that this planar talk, particularly the never-ending Great Wheel/Great Tree debate, is all rather off-topic. I don't think we need to argue about that just to discuss cambions and alu-fiends. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 20:30:56
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| Didn't mean to get sidetracked on the topic of the Demonweb Pits or Lolth's divinity Wooly, appologies. However, on the topic of the alu-fiend, I will plug this latest issue of Dragon, which has yet another great Volo's Guide in it, which is indeed related to demons . . . |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11734 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2007 : 15:07:45
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<<I wonder if these things were caught before publication?
God, I'd hope so. The assassin thing as a favored class is just out and out foolishness. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2007 : 17:07:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
<<I wonder if these things were caught before publication?
God, I'd hope so. The assassin thing as a favored class is just out and out foolishness.
True, but on the other hand, I do have a question regarding them.
Do the Cambion and Alu-Fiend have Hit Dice? And if so how many? Reason being, if I recall correctly, rules in general say that Racial HD count as the favored class, however if they can qualify for Assassin just from Racial HD, I can see why the PRC would be listed as a "favored" class even though in general I seem to recall PRCs didn't count towards the multi-classing penalty.
Also another thing to wonder about is how old the notes used in this were? and if they got overhauled.
I know there are times when older notes get sent to the printer instead of the revised notes. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2007 : 17:14:57
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I just looked over this at the book store, and yes, the odd numbered ability bonuses and assasin as favored class are in the book.
Cambions have hit dice, alu fiends, as presented in the little write up that James Jacobs did in Dragon, just have substitute abilities that replace a few of the standard half-fiend abilities of that template. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2007 : 22:10:37
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I just looked over this at the book store, and yes, the odd numbered ability bonuses and assasin as favored class are in the book.
Cambions have hit dice, alu fiends, as presented in the little write up that James Jacobs did in Dragon, just have substitute abilities that replace a few of the standard half-fiend abilities of that template.
Picked it up today, only took a quick look over it.
One thing that really stuck out at me besides the odd-numbered adjustments for a Cambion is the ECL difference for a "normal" Cambion vs a "noble" Cambion, which is only a +1, yet there are Major Attribute adjustment differences between the two. |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2007 : 08:54:35
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| Bugger. More sloppy development and editing. |
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Cambions and Alu-Fiends Return to 3.5
