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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 05:43:23
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In Volo's Guide to All Things Magical its mentioned that there is an ongoing search among mages to find a "universal spell component," something that can be used for almost any spell as a material component. They list that a few items (drow dust, dragon dew, powdered lich phylacteries, spellshade phlogiston, powdered magebane claws, disenchanter brains, or things touched by Mystra, and some gems)that have shown some degree of success as "universal components."
In Complete Mage they introduce a substance known as Primal Essence, specially prepared etherial matter that can be substituted for any spell component at a rate of 150gp worth of primal essence for each 100gp worth of material component substituted, more or less.
Now, this sounds very much like the "universal spell component" that mages have been looking for. So my question becomes this . . . according to VGTATM anyone that figured out the universal spell component would be famous, and it would be a major discovery. So, should this substance be "discovered" widely in the Realms as the universal spell component, and some wizard be heralded as the genius that found it? Or perhaps this is something that both the Netherese (and thus the Shadovar of Thultanthar) and the Imaskari (and thus the Deep Imaskari) knew, and it could be introduced in this manner?
Or should something like "drow dust" (powered, treated items infused with large concentrations of faezress) take the place of Primal Essence.
Just wondering if anyone else had thought about this and what their thoughts might be.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 06:02:49
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I've always liked the fact that magic in the Realms isn't the same as magic in other spheres... It seems to me like Complete Mage's primal essence is just too easy, and thus not in line with the universal spell component -- which seems to be something of a Holy Grail to Weave users.
I wouldn't include this primal essence, meself, because it not only doesn't seem to fit the flavor of magic in the Realms, but also because with several magically powerful nations having searched for such a thing, it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't have discovered something relatively simple like that.
And as an FYI for those unfamiliar with the book... Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (formerly a suppressed work  ) is available for free from the Wizards downloads page.  It's a wonderful resource, and I think it does a better job of giving a feel for Realms magic than any other product, before or since. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 06:11:00
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I agree with Wooly. It seems a bit to pat and it doesn't fit FR's magical history.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Matan Thunder
Acolyte
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 08:19:14
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Old 2nd edition point of view.......
I would respectfully disagree that the universal component is not a viable part of the spell weave of Fearun. I base my opinion on the fact that magic has evolved in Faerun with each incarnation of Mystra, Mystral, etc...
Now during the Arcane Age it would have been a very likely occurence with things like heavy magic being part of that campaign.
For many gamers Faerun's magic system is evolving every few years as new ideas are put forth by the current game creators. This doesn't mean that the "Universal Component" wasn't created in earlier ages when magic was a little more free willed in the game.
Any number of materials could be a "Universal Component" too, it is solely the province of an individual DM to make that final call......Which of course Wolly & Kuje have for their campaigns.
I can think of at least 4 or 5 components tha might be considered "Universal Components" past what has already been mentioned.
With all this mentioned I would also like to address the.....
quote:
anyone that figured out the universal spell component would be famous
Rock star status for such a mage would most likely lead to an untimely death in the same vein a Shandril (Spellfire Fame). The idea is that every group that wanted to keep or destroy the knowledge would be trying to kill/acquire the "Universal Component" discoverer.
It might be a good hook for an adventure, but I would hardly want my PC's or NPC's finding it in Realmspace. Ol' Mystra might not like it either, or maybe the Cyricist's would want it too....It might become a very bad day.
Later
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Turn them all into rainbow colored mushrooms and drop them from 300' to the tune from the "Anvil Chorus". |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 08:45:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Matan Thunder
Rock star status for such a mage would most likely lead to an untimely death in the same vein a Shandril (Spellfire Fame). The idea is that every group that wanted to keep or destroy the knowledge would be trying to kill/acquire the "Universal Component" discoverer.
It might be a good hook for an adventure, but I would hardly want my PC's or NPC's finding it in Realmspace. Ol' Mystra might not like it either, or maybe the Cyricist's would want it too....It might become a very bad day.
Yeah, one of the things that was pointed out in VGTATM was that a mage that did discover this would likely be famous AND they would likely find themselves on the wrong end of quite a few spells.
I thought it would be interesting for someone to "discover" this, at least from the point of view of tavern tales and bard's songs, as something major that happened, or perhaps something that could come up at a Mage Fair.
I did think, however, that it would be interesting to introduce this as something simple that the Netherese or the Imaskari already knew about, thus making a lot of "current" wizards feel a bit let down by the fact that the Shadovar and the Deep Imaskari were already using this "universal component."
Ah, well, just some thougths. Thanks for the input all, and if anyone else has any opinions, feel free to chime in. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 17:02:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Matan Thunder
I would respectfully disagree that the universal component is not a viable part of the spell weave of Fearun.
I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with myself and Kuje or not... If so, neither of us said that it wasn't viable, we just don't like the "simplified" Complete Mage version. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 17:11:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Matan Thunder
I would respectfully disagree that the universal component is not a viable part of the spell weave of Fearun.
I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with myself and Kuje or not... If so, neither of us said that it wasn't viable, we just don't like the "simplified" Complete Mage version.
And for the record, it has NOTHING to do with a ruleset and everything to do with Realmslore, which is beyond a ruleset. So, Matan's 2e comment is a bit uncalled for. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 19:10:01
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| Further, while the discoverer might get hunted for their knowledge they could very well distribute the knowledge as freely as possible in the realms, thus making it a moot point to hunt them down. (unlike a spellfire wielder, who can't write down how to gain spellfire *g*) |
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Matan Thunder
Acolyte
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 20:29:40
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quote:
I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with myself and Kuje or not... If so, neither of us said that it wasn't viable, we just don't like the "simplified" Complete Mage version.
I understood that some subsequent material like the "Complete Mage" (which I own, but haven't hacked through its 3.5ness yet), but I did get the impresion that you wouldn't see it a a VIABLE addition to the game. I do.
quote:
And for the record, it has NOTHING to do with a ruleset and everything to do with Realmslore, which is beyond a ruleset. So, Matan's 2e comment is a bit uncalled for.
With all due respect, you seem to be taking the issue somewhat personal.
EVERY SINGLE DM can see what you refer to as "Realmslore" as a very different animal indeed. While I do add the useful parts of 3.????, I do backward technology it back to 2nd edition, in an paralell time line where Mystra (Midnight) isn't such an eviscerated wimp when it comes to magic. My variation I know!!!!
Your aspects of realmslore here on the site are appreciated, but it is hardly the bottom line to many of the gamers in the community.
As to ruleset, without a ruleset, the Realmlore becomes a story instead of an RPG. The site is very RPG information rich, so I would respectfully agree to disagree with your assertions on the subject.
quote:
Further, while the discoverer might get hunted for their knowledge they could very well distribute the knowledge as freely as possible in the realms, thus making it a moot point to hunt them down.
Some groups and agencies would then hunt down those who had contact with our "Rock Star", and then their contacts, and so on and so on.
It might get out eventually, but groups like Thay, Zhentil, Cyric's or Mystra's clergy, etc....would hunt the secret for themselves or into the grave until it did become common knowledge.
Later
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 02:27:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Matan Thunder
quote:
I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with myself and Kuje or not... If so, neither of us said that it wasn't viable, we just don't like the "simplified" Complete Mage version.
I understood that some subsequent material like the "Complete Mage" (which I own, but haven't hacked through its 3.5ness yet), but I did get the impresion that you wouldn't see it a a VIABLE addition to the game. I do.
Actually, I don't even own Complete Mage yet. And I'm not rejecting out of hand all material from the book -- only this one thing.
I'm not the canon Nazi some are, but I do like to track as closely with canon as possible. The primal essence is an easy solution, one that would have been discovered by any number of plane-hopping mages. And that's why I reject it. The universal spell component is something spellslingers have sought for ages. It is, as I said earlier, something of a Holy Grail for spellslingers.
Incorporating the primal essence invalidates the established lore we have about the universal spell component. I don't want to chuck any existing Realmslore out the window because of something in a core book. If optional core material can be worked in without contradicting/invalidating previous material, fine, I have no problem with it. I'm not, however, going to accept that optional material when it goes against printed Realms material.
Do what you will in your own campaign, but please try to understand differing viewpoints. And let's avoid denigrating those opposing viewpoints, shall we? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 03:13:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not the canon Nazi some are, but I do like to track as closely with canon as possible. The primal essence is an easy solution, one that would have been discovered by any number of plane-hopping mages. And that's why I reject it. The universal spell component is something spellslingers have sought for ages. It is, as I said earlier, something of a Holy Grail for spellslingers.
Incorporating the primal essence invalidates the established lore we have about the universal spell component. I don't want to chuck any existing Realmslore out the window because of something in a core book. If optional core material can be worked in without contradicting/invalidating previous material, fine, I have no problem with it. I'm not, however, going to accept that optional material when it goes against printed Realms material.
I understand what you are saying here, and I definitely like the idea of making sure everything jives (in fact, part of why I was perusing WGTATM is because I was looking at assigning properties to some materials in 3.5 terms). One of the things I was trying to do was to reconcile using primal essence with existing Realmslore.
I actually wanted to introduce it (if any of my players ever take arcane casters, since none of them ever seem to . . . ) at a Mage Fair as a new sensation, with wizards being skeptical about it. I also wanted it to be a "secret" that some wizard found out from either the Imaskari or the Shadovar.
I don't think it would invalidate previous Realmslore to have a universal spell component found, and its possible that a simple solution ends up being the actual solution (the same thing happens a lot in the real world). On the other hand, I can see that it might be more fun to leave as an open "Holy Grail." Especially since it is kind of hinted at in VGTATM that its something that mages are skeptical will ever be fully "solved."
One of the other reasons I was looking into it is that I was writing up some drow NPCs for City of the Spider Queen, and I was thinking of using this as something they had on them. I was intrigued at the "drow dust" comment, that powdered faezress rich matter might be used, and that the drow might carry that on them, but the problem I ran into with that particular one was that it seems like "drow dust" is something that a surface wizard discovered, so I was wondering if the drow themselves would have come up with this idea.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 03:31:05
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When it comes to the universal component I prefer the philosophers stone version, lots of rumours and talk of it being found, but nothing certain. Even a believable rumour of the component being found would cause quite a bit of curiosity, both friendly and unfriendly, among mages and wizards in Faerun.
If I for some reason wanted to remove the element of components from the campaign entirely I might have considered introducing the universal component, one that turned out to be surprisingly simple and cheap ones found, so as to give an explanation to why guano and sand was no longer necessary equipment for a mage. Another possibility would be to have the component itself have a very short lifespan, such as one day, thereby making it practical for certain spells or in desperate need, but not for everyday casting. I must admit though, that this is something I would never do myself.
This is turning out to be to much thinking before the first cup of coffee. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 03:42:28
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Well, primal essence, as written, is definitely not something you would want to use to cast fireball (unless you REALLY wanted to show off your wealth) .
Another thing I was thinking of was why some of the other items that had "limited success" weren't really considered universal components. For example, is there a certain school, sub school, or descriptor type of spell that they won't work for? Could a powdered lich phylactery not be used for spells with the "good" descriptor? Would drow dust not work for translocational magic? I imagine that items touched by Mystra migh actually work as true Universal Components, but those would be very rare items that there isn't a real danger of replacing other material components with. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 06:29:41
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| Well, I think that with the Creator Races, the Imaskari, the Netherese, the Halruaans, the Thayans, and all the smaller groups and individual mages, that something as simple as the primal essense would have been discovered long ago... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 14:24:15
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I think that there might be a couple of factors going into this though. Primal essence is suppose to made from etherial matter, but if you think about it, diamonds are made out of carbon as well, but the process for making industrial diamonds is a fairly recent concept, whereas humans have used carbon (weather they understood what is was or not) for quite a bit longer than that. In other words, the process for refining primal essence might have been something that took a long time to develop, even if the core material is a relatively simple thing to use (if you are used to planar travel).
It could even be something that is comparable to shale and extracting petroleum from it. We have known for some time that its possible, but it wasn't a practical matter to do it until fairly recent advances have taken place. It could be the same logic applied here would make sense, that the process for creating primal essence was created by those ancient casters, but was so convoluted, expensive, and time consuming that it wasn't worth the effort to pursue, but then some new element recently discovered has made the "refining" process more effeicient.
On the other hand, I can also see that it may be that a few factors would keep it from working in the Realms, for example:
1. Toril's etherial matter is for one reason or another not as magically malleable as the etherial planes surrounding other Prime Material planes.
2. The refinement process requires spells that are now "allowed" by Mystra and the current structure of the Weave.
3. Primal essensce can be created and used in other planes, but it doesn't react well with the Weave on the Prime Material plane.
4. The alchemical process that has to be used to refine it isn't allowed by Gond or one of the gods of magic.
One way or the other, I don't think introducing it would invalidate Realmslore on the matter, as long as the idea that casters have been looking for a universal spell component is addressed in some manner.
Also, and this is likely due to my own lack of eloquence in explaining the matter in the first place, so I appologize, but the implication isn't that you can pick up etherial matter if you are in the etherial plane and use it as a material component, at least not if I read the entry properly. You would still need to refine or alter that matter to create primal essensce.
At any rate, I'm not fully tied to this idea one way or another, but it sparked my attention when I was rereading those sections of VGTATM, so I wanted to get some other opinions on it. Thanks to everyone that has chimed in on this. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 15:51:15
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I don't even own Complete Mage, but I think that I would handle it thus:
Introduce the material at the Mage Fair (as planned).
Have many notable mages take some home and test it to see if its as universal as is claimed (as is done today in the scientific community).
Have several mages make contraversial findings about it such findings might include:
"While it certainly works in many instances, it does not work in all instances. After 68 trials with spell X, it only functioned Y% of the time, Z% of the time it produced unforeseen results. This is as dangerous as Wild Magic and ought to be banned."
In reply to above, "With respect to the honored wizard, his familiarity with spell X is limited as he is a specialist in School C. Furthermore, it is found that when casting spell X he was in the vicinity of well known magical anomaly K which is known to disrupt spells from spell X's school."
rebuttal
"The presence of anomaly K was accounted for by B. Your entire argument is as wild as this "universal" stuff that we're testing"
News Report!
"Universal Component linked with outbreak of new magical disease. See the ten o'clock news." |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 16:53:11
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That actually gives me another idea about why some of the older nations might have abondoned its use or never considered it viable. It might be perfectly fine to use in any given instance as a substitute for material components, but using it excessively might lead to the "magical pollution" (that we discussed a few months back from Dragon Magazine and Cityscape) that can be problematic.
Or, given that its etherial matter, it might start to weaken the planar boundaries or the structural integrity of "real" matter in the vicinity where it is used.
Neither of these would be something that would happen right away, but they are both issues that over the long term might lead some to abandon its use, or even to make sure that others don't find out how to make/use it. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 26 Mar 2007 16:54:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 17:15:08
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| Or it could have some sort of instability, thus causing something quite like wild magic surges... |
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Primal Essense and The Universal Spell Component
