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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jul 2007 : 10:30:17
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My bad, Simbul.
I do find solace however in the fact that you misspelled "Telamont". 
As I recall, we do get a look at Shadowdale the town. As for Elminster and the rest of the Chosen ... well, Shadowdale is a decidedly unhealthy place for them during the time period of this adventure. As you note, Shar has always been an unforgiving sort.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 14 Jul 2007 10:30:59 |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2007 : 15:45:34
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hmm...I must have been mispelling it for quite some time it seems, since I had entered it that way in the custom file for my MS Word spellcheck ages ago.
No wonder my blade in the soul (W9, Enchantment/Charm. The Seven Sisters, page 101) spells keep failing...as I clearly keep naming the wrong archmage in the casting. |
Edited by - The Simbul on 14 Jul 2007 15:46:43 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2007 : 03:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
However, as for my assertion that the murderer of Elminster's parents was a Shadow Adept, I draw that from this specific scene in The Summoning, where Melegaunt relates to his siblings the potential interference Elminster may bring to their plans
quote:
The Summoning, Chapter 20
"I have spoken of one called Elminster," said Melegaunt.
"The gray bearded Chosen," said the horned warrior. "We have observed him. A powerful ally--or an inconvenient enemy. Which?"
"That is yet to be decided, my lord Rivalen, but I fear unexpected events have turned him a little against us. As you know, his parents were slain by a shadow mage, and that has made him suspicious of us....
Isn't it possible that Melegaunt is the one who's mistaken? Why would he know all the correct facts about Elminster? Just saying. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Jul 2007 03:13:06 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2007 : 04:13:52
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| Yeah, several things that Melegaunt said I took as perfect examples of a fallible narrator. Just because he was one of the Princes of Shade doesn't mean he didn't buy into a good deal of propaganda or misinformation (for example, his explanation on how the Shadow Weave came about). Its not that "the book" was wrong, its that Melegaunt literally doesn't know all facts with 100% accuracy. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2007 : 17:09:39
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That flying enclave should have crashed to the ground at the end of these three horrible novels. There. Done. None of that shade crap anymore. What a lame story arc. One that I notice has not been picked upon by any other authors, even with the proverbial ten foot pole. I own Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave; I'll admit I just skimmed it so far, but I think the Shadow Plane / Shadow Magic aspect of that adventure makes no mention of the Shade, and is more oriented towards Shar and her worshippers... anyhow, I could be wrong, but even so, the "Shade" aspect of this adventure, if even present, has been neglected marketing-wise... (I'd be inclined to say that if that story arc had been ressurrected, somehow, they would have made a big deal out of it and included that in the marketing for that adventure...)
Sigh. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 02:19:42
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Saw SoS in Borders this evening and skimmed through it, so if anyone's interested in major points, I can probably share. There's certainly a body count in this one, with both existing and newly introduced characters biting the dust. Which, from my perspective, is a good thing. If you're going to actually have Shadowdale overrun, there'd better be a price to be paid.
And there is some mention of Shade involvement (something to the effect that it was some sort of a grand experiment), and the PC's both can kill various Shadovar emissaries and get hit with a Shade assassin squad (using monsters I'd never heard of). It also says in the conclusion that by now the PC's will have put together the pieces of Shade involvement, and that in the last volume they have to go into the desert to deal with them.
Finally, one other thing I liked: there was, in the conclusion, a sidebar saying what the "canon" resolution of the adventure is. It's nice that those of us who care more for lore than using prepackaged adventures don't have to guess what the official resolution is for years. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 02:22:41
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quote:
There's certainly a body count in this one, with both existing and newly introduced characters biting the dust.
So now we have a 'Who lives, who dies?' situation. Eeek. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 02:31:06
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| One biggie and one moderate biggie, at the very least. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Bocklin
Learned Scribe
Germany
151 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 09:41:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
One biggie and one moderate biggie, at the very least.
Would you reveal this here under "spoiler" brackets? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 02:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
That flying enclave should have crashed to the ground at the end of these three horrible novels. There. Done. None of that shade crap anymore. What a lame story arc.
To be fair, I really like what Paul Kemp is doing with the Shades in his Twilight War series (although only the first book is out so far). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 02:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
quote:
There's certainly a body count in this one, with both existing and newly introduced characters biting the dust.
So now we have a 'Who lives, who dies?' situation. Eeek.
Is nervous all over again...  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 04:23:01
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Sure. Now all I have to do is figure out how to do the spoiler part.
White text test
edit: Ok, spoilers follow in white.
The Simbul was almost entirely correct. Sylune is nearly destroyed in the initial stages of the attack (her condition of ghost-hood is fulfilled) and the PC's rescue what's left of her as almost the very first thing. Unfortunately, Sylune sacrifices herself to end the dead magic effect that covers the dale. There's even a side bar that starts "So dies Sylune of the Seven Sisters," or words to that effect.
The other recurring character to die is Scyllua Darkhope as the very last battle. She flies back to the dale to stop the uprising, and you fight her in mid-air over the dale in view of everyone.
Most everyone else in the dale survives (well, major characters, anyway), though Mourngrym is struck with a terrible depression and resigns the lordship. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 17 Jul 2007 14:23:28 |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 06:20:39
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It will be a few weeks before my copy arrives in the snail mail. Can you possibly elaborate on some of the game mechanics being called for? Are we looking at Heroes of Battle rules or D&D Minis rules for battles?
I am a bit wary of the notion that a single party can somehow rally a defeated (and with the NPC losses, likely moraly broken) folk of Shadowdale to overthrow an occupying Zhent army. Would I be correct in assuming that there is a 'deus ex machina' involved at some point?
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Bocklin
Learned Scribe
Germany
151 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 09:00:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Sure. Now all I have to do is figure out how to do the spoiler part.
Great! Thanks for the info.
Hidden comment :
I am surprised that Rich Baker took part in the dispatching of Syllua. I thought she was one of his creation and that he liked it/hoped to see more of her in action in the future. But I might be mistaken... |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 13:54:51
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Thank you for the information. I am disappointed with this news, though, because it's starting to feel that those who are making the design decisions are trying to appease/attract those who say they don't like the setting the way it is (ie. the "I hate the Chosen of Mystra", "Mystra's too powerful/too good" people) and are disregarding the preferences of those of us who DO like the setting.
Color me annoyed. AGAIN. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 17 Jul 2007 13:56:14 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 14:29:01
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| Well the second case mentioned by Hoondatha does not bother me, more the opposite. Now the first one is another story; one more canon case I will not include. But, some changes must be made I guess, and you cant make everyone happy. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 14:29:56
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Chyron: To be honest, I didn't pay much attention to exactly what ruleset was being used. Each chapter ends with a number of encounter maps that seem to be geared towards being used with battle mats and miniatures.
If by deus ex machina you mean the sudden return of high level help, then no, there isn't one. Your party has to convince the simmeringly-angry Dalefolk to rise in revolt by getting Notoriety Points by completing part of the adventure and publicly taking credit for it (destroying the Shar priestess, for instance). You also need to get Victory Points (often for the same things as the NP's). When you get enough NP's, revolt breaks out; first in the town, and over the next few days it spreads as all the outlying farmsteaders come in to fight. If you get enough VP's (and, personally, I think there should have been more ways to do so, you need 30 and I think the chart at the back totals 34) the revolt succeeds.
Not sure where this VP/NP system came from, though. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Bocklin
Learned Scribe
Germany
151 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 14:52:18
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Hoondatha,
Since you are so helpful, on more short question: 
Did you get the feeling that it was important for the characters to have taken part in "Tearing of the Weave" or is it pretty much a stand alone adventure? Any link-over with the Shar activities in Cormyr?
Bocklin |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 15:17:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Chyron: To be honest, I didn't pay much attention to exactly what ruleset was being used. Each chapter ends with a number of encounter maps that seem to be geared towards being used with battle mats and miniatures.
If by deus ex machina you mean the sudden return of high level help, then no, there isn't one. Your party has to convince the simmeringly-angry Dalefolk to rise in revolt by getting Notoriety Points by completing part of the adventure and publicly taking credit for it (destroying the Shar priestess, for instance). You also need to get Victory Points (often for the same things as the NP's). When you get enough NP's, revolt breaks out; first in the town, and over the next few days it spreads as all the outlying farmsteaders come in to fight. If you get enough VP's (and, personally, I think there should have been more ways to do so, you need 30 and I think the chart at the back totals 34) the revolt succeeds.
Not sure where this VP/NP system came from, though.
There's no high level help as stated.
The Victory Point system is from Heroes of Battle (but you don't need that product to use this one).
There are actually 2 victory point objectives in the adventure. First and foremost, there's a victory point system to achieve the liberation of Shadowdale. Second, there's a sidebar victory point system to impact the war between the Army of Myth Drannor and Zhentil Keep/The Masked Brigades.
I created the Notoriety Point system for this adventure, although I was inspired by the victory point system and an old Greyhawk module that detailed an incursion into Iuz's city. The idea was to create a tension between "skulking" and "showboating" and give the PCs incentives towards both. Showboating incents the Dalesfolk to rebellion. Skulking reduces the risk of a counter-attack.
As for the barely adequate number of victory points, this was a deliberate choice. I wanted the PCs to have to really work to win. It should be very, very hard for a mid-level party of PCs to defeat an army. That said, if the PCs do something unexpected (which most PCs do), the DM should feel free to adapt the victory point system to reward unanticipated achievements.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 15:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Bocklin
Hoondatha,
Since you are so helpful, on more short question:
Did you get the feeling that it was important for the characters to have taken part in "Tearing of the Weave" or is it pretty much a stand alone adventure? Any link-over with the Shar activities in Cormyr?
Bocklin
I'll leave it to others to decide whether we succeeded, but the intent was to loosely couple the adventures. In other words, the adventure is completely stand-alone, but if you want to run both back-to-back, there's a clear link (an offstage NPC in the first one comes onstage in the second one).
Anticipating the obvious question, if you want to have them move on to the 3rd adventure, pay attention to the note and ring the PCs can find.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 15:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
It will be a few weeks before my copy arrives in the snail mail. Can you possibly elaborate on some of the game mechanics being called for? Are we looking at Heroes of Battle rules or D&D Minis rules for battles?
I am a bit wary of the notion that a single party can somehow rally a defeated (and with the NPC losses, likely moraly broken) folk of Shadowdale to overthrow an occupying Zhent army. Would I be correct in assuming that there is a 'deus ex machina' involved at some point?
There's no deus ex machina.
The Notoriety Point system is intended to address how the PCs, through adventuring and gaining notoriety for their deeds, inspire the Dalesfolk to rebellion.
There's also a series of goals the PCs can achieve that give the PCs and their allies added advantages, such as additional allies, flying mounts, and a unique, semi-secret transportation system.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 15:50:05
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My thanks for the clear explanation Mr. Boyd. It certainly sounds more promising, than I had anticipated  . I have seen a fair share of adventures as both a DM and a player where NPC X, Deity Y or Super Artifact Z suddenly comes in to play right at the end to save the day(and as a player I always hated those  ). |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 17 Jul 2007 15:50:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 16:43:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
My thanks for the clear explanation Mr. Boyd. It certainly sounds more promising, than I had anticipated . I have seen a fair share of adventures as both a DM and a player where NPC X, Deity Y or Super Artifact Z suddenly comes in to play right at the end to save the day(and as a player I always hated those).
Aww, but Deity Y is just trying to get some more worshippers... He just needs a few more to be able to get a proper name! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 20:29:04
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Actually, I liked the Notoriety Point system for the exact point you mentioned: the tension between needing the Dalesfolk to rally behind you and not getting pounded flat by the Zhents. That was a nice touch.
My problem with the low VP total is that it makes it really easy for just one or two decisions ("Aww, heck with it, let's just kill that winter wolf!") to completely remove any chance of victory without DM and players needing to invent more stuff for them to do, especially if they miss just one big one (any of the 5 pointers). While I agree it should be hard to dislodge an army, and that many of the VP's come from the general course of the adventure (Sylune, killing the drow, Castle Krag, etc.), I still would have liked a larger margin. Say 37 or 38. But that's just me.
And I never read the Cormyr adventure, so I can't say for certain, but from what I read, it's so loosely coupled that I didn't notice any connection at all (though I skipped the "How to get your players into the adventure" section, so may have missed it). There's a much closer tie to the 3rd adventure, due to finding a note on one person you have to kill (see VP problem above), and a Towerkin ring (nice to see those again) on another NPC you have to kill. Just enough to get players interested and ready to hare off to deal with them. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 02:55:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Bocklin
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Sure. Now all I have to do is figure out how to do the spoiler part.
Great! Thanks for the info.
Hidden comment :
I am surprised that Rich Baker took part in the dispatching of Syllua. I thought she was one of his creation and that he liked it/hoped to see more of her in action in the future. But I might be mistaken...
Actually, I recall Rich Baker saying that he only contributed the most basic aspects of the character. It was, apparently, Duane Maxwell and Sean Reynolds who did most of the work on fleshing out her history and stats. I seem to recall it being said that Duane was really happy about the character and did some early work on her.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 03:55:23
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I got the book today... Actually, my girlfriend ran by my FLGS and picked it up for me, because we had a family commitment in Orlando immediately after I got out of work. So my only chance to go thru the book was while she was driving us there...
Dang, there is a body count in there! 
Someone must have hit the entire Realms with that supposedly Chinese curse "May you live in interesting times."
In other notes... It was cool to see Lashan of Scardale again -- most unanticipated, but quite cool. I like the way he was brought back.
And Aumry being an Obarskyr? Wow! If I ever knew that one, it had totally slipped my mind. It's interesting, though.
I liked seeing Mourngrym's son have a name other than "Scotti", which I never liked.
The reason Mourngrym was cooperating with the Zhents was a nice one, too.
Aumry's staff of the night -- I just reread that old article ("Bazaar of the Bizarre", Dragon 173) a couple of months ago. It's great to see lesser-known bits of Realmslore come back like that!
One other thing that struck me as interesting: the Black Beast of Bane. It says that, like his son Xvim, the reborn Bane likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. Looking at Faiths & Avatars, that seems to be more of Xvim thing, and not something that Bane 1.0 did all that much. Maybe I'm reading into it because I want to, but that seems to me to be another indication that there is still a lot of Xvim in Bane 2.0. This, of course, supports my two favorite (and opposing) theories of Bane's return -- the "What the hey, I'm back!" theory, or the "Hey, look at me, I'm really Bane, not Xvim!" theory. But I'm prolly just reading too much into it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 04:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One other thing that struck me as interesting: the Black Beast of Bane. It says that, like his son Xvim, the reborn Bane likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. Looking at Faiths & Avatars, that seems to be more of Xvim thing, and not something that Bane 1.0 did all that much. Maybe I'm reading into it because I want to, but that seems to me to be another indication that there is still a lot of Xvim in Bane 2.0. This, of course, supports my two favorite (and opposing) theories of Bane's return -- the "What the hey, I'm back!" theory, or the "Hey, look at me, I'm really Bane, not Xvim!" theory. But I'm prolly just reading too much into it.
I don't think so. And this is very interesting.
If you remember, Wooly, during some of our earlier discussions about Bane's return, we speculated that Bane may have been experiencing some difficulties in completely subsuming the remnants of Xvim's essense. This was reflecting one of your theories about Xvim having more of a place in Bane 2.0's essence, and the fact that Bane 2.0 is essentially using Xvim's colours.
Bane's hand is squeezing the green rays [of Xvim] -- and if we look at that from the "Bane-eventually-subsumes-Xvim" stand point, that image itself could suggest Bane is perhaps closing in around Xvim's remnants, or rather, slowly squeezing it out of existence (or rather again, completely consuming it). Or, alternatively, looking at it from your perspective, with Xvim maintaining some place in Bane 2.0, maybe Xvim is fighting to maintain himself in spite of Bane's apparent [and overriding] presence.
This Black Beast tidbit may be a reflection of the fact that Xvim still has some fight left in him, and that he was [somehow] solely responsible for its creation.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 05:09:56
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Maybe it's your previous speculations that lead the designers to include such a thing |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 15:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In other notes... It was cool to see Lashan of Scardale again -- most unanticipated, but quite cool. I like the way he was brought back.
I wanted to play with this tidbit and it was the best way to give the Sharrans inside info on Sylune's Achille's heel.
quote:
And Aumry being an Obarskyr? Wow! If I ever knew that one, it had totally slipped my mind. It's interesting, though.
That's new. I asked Ed when I realized there was no last name given ever and he surprised me with that one. We'll need to figure out where he fits in the family tree ...
quote:
I liked seeing Mourngrym's son have a name other than "Scotti", which I never liked.
You and Rich!
quote:
The reason Mourngrym was cooperating with the Zhents was a nice one, too.
Compare this to the opening scene of Paul Kemp's first novel.
quote:
Aumry's staff of the night -- I just reread that old article ("Bazaar of the Bizarre", Dragon 173) a couple of months ago. It's great to see lesser-known bits of Realmslore come back like that!
Glad you liked it. I always enjoyed those old magic item articles by Ed.
quote:
One other thing that struck me as interesting: the Black Beast of Bane. It says that, like his son Xvim, the reborn Bane likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. Looking at Faiths & Avatars, that seems to be more of Xvim thing, and not something that Bane 1.0 did all that much. Maybe I'm reading into it because I want to, but that seems to me to be another indication that there is still a lot of Xvim in Bane 2.0. This, of course, supports my two favorite (and opposing) theories of Bane's return -- the "What the hey, I'm back!" theory, or the "Hey, look at me, I'm really Bane, not Xvim!" theory. But I'm prolly just reading too much into it.
Glad you're having fun speculating. ;-)
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 21:04:41
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| Hmmm, and what was Xvim's fascination with altering beasts? Could it come back to his birth? Was his mother some kind of infernal lyncanthrope? I mean, was Bane REALLLYYYYY Kinky? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Elminster falls for it again (Scouring of Shad..)
