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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 01:41:03
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In, well, most of human history, women have been cruely restricted by harsh social codes. This was probably due to the fact that in physical labor, women are generally not as strong as men. Also, the fact that many offspring are needed caused many women to be pregnant and raising children all the time. However, as the world changes into one where most work is mentally based, women have finally been given their deserved proper rights and the restricting social codes are melting away.
But what of FR. Women in Faerun are, for the most part, allowed to be great religous leaders and get to run around and hit things with swords. My question is Why? Wait, no why is the wrong word. I already know why, so we can play female adventurers.
So, I guess my real question is How?
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 01:44:55
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| As much as I love the way things are in the Realms, I think that is a great question and I'd love to hear some answers for it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 01:46:02
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Simple. Because Ed wanted it that way. :)
It's not like FR is the only fiction world that has gender equality. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 23 Mar 2007 01:46:26 |
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 02:15:48
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Good question, although I think there are two different types of answers here. The first is game mechanics and the second will be some FR mindset. Game mechanics don't penalize female characters with fewer Strength points or grant male characters Strength bonuses, therefore a woman is just as capable of developing into a character with maxxed out Strength (18+) as a man, if the player chooses that direction for her. This is a big difference from reality where women's bodies work differently from men's in the aspect of muscle development (due to different testosterone levels). Since game mechanics don't take that into account, characters like Scyulla Darkhope (STR 13) are comparable to characters like Drizzt Do'Urden (STR 13) as far as musculature goes. (And I know that elves aren't as muscular as humans, but Drizzt is still a male.)
The game mechanics answer is simply "The game mechanics don't cover men being naturally stronger than women." As far as the FR mindset answer, somebody more knowledgible will have to fill that one in.
But even in the real world, I see the roles of men and women in societies as coming more from practicality than from harsh social codes. Imagining a tribe of primitive humans, I would think the gender roles come from biology rather than sociology (although the social codes do become dominant and maybe even "hardwired"; that might be one for the evolutionary biologists on the board :) ). The muscular people (normally men) hunt the food and defend the tribe, while the less muscular people (normally the women) take care of the "logistics" of running the tribe like cooking, etc. You see the same things today since women are better at multi-tasking than men. Men evolved to hunt and kill, one objective and one target. Women evolved to be the nurturers and gatherers.
Granted, there are definately societies where women are kept under some very harsh social codes, but even those are just rules and precepts that came from a practicality that used to exist, but isn't practical anymore. They used to be valid when people were out hunting for their next meal, but nowadays, a member of either sex can walk into a grocery store and pick up food. Less physical labor to be done means more equality.
Also, bear in mind that Faerun is part of a largely idealized medieval setting, and because Ed doesn't have any problems with women wanting equal rights, the Realms doesn't either.
Furthermore, making the Realms "everybody-friendly" gives everybody the opportunity to play without feeling discriminated against, which means everybody has the same potential to have fun.
(By the way, I don't want to give the wrong impression about myself here. I'm glad that women now have the same rights and privileges as men. I'd much rather deal with women as equals than have them be subservient to me. Nobody respects a doormat, but everybody respects an equal. Not to mention that smart women are the sexiest women of them all.) |
Edited by - Calrond on 23 Mar 2007 02:18:53 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 02:40:24
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Probably had to do with the fact theres more than one way to "gain power" in the realms (And D&D generally) in the past a person could claim a position by force of arms ie I am the strongest therefore I get to rule. The females tend to be physically weaker and smaller then males and where there fore less able to claim the power by force of arms especially if there was a male claiment
In the realms however theres more than one way to "claim power" and stegth is not the deciding factor females with Inteligence can become a wizard or use wisdom and become a cleric or druid etc. In first Edition (and 2nd?)there was a rule that a female character could only have a natural strength of 18 50/100 while a Male could reach 18 100/100
It would be interesting to check and see whether the Knights of Myth Drannor (Eds original party) had female characters who focused on "Strength intensive" classes (such as Ranger, Cavalier, paladin and Fighter) or whether most of the female knights took les strength focused classes like Rogues or Wizard
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 02:52:09
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Dove Falconhand is the only one that comes to mind, and I know she is a 14th level Ranger (2 ED) with a few mage and thief levels mixed in.
Edit: I think it's also mentioned that Dove is a stronger-than-average female. In Silverfall, it's a sort of running joke for a while between some of the Seven Sisters that "at least you don't have Dove's shoulders." |
Edited by - Calrond on 23 Mar 2007 02:53:27 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 02:55:05
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First level: More history since the start of agriculture than our world has. D&Dlike magic. No patriarchal logocentric monotheism.
Second level: Heightened, heroic reality.
Third level: Like all secondary worlds, the Realms is not a version of our world that happens to be imaginary. It's an imaginary construct that resembles our world in certain limited ways, but works however Ed and its other creators want it to (like wot Kuje sed). |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 08:28:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
First level: More history since the start of agriculture than our world has. D&Dlike magic. No patriarchal logocentric monotheism.
Second level: Heightened, heroic reality.
Third level: Like all secondary worlds, the Realms is not a version of our world that happens to be imaginary. It's an imaginary construct that resembles our world in certain limited ways, but works however Ed and its other creators want it to (like wot Kuje sed).
Well, there is not much to say beyond this. There are numerous paths that could have been taken in the Realms that would have removed them from the increasing tendency towards patriarchal societies that happened in our world. Inspiration from other races, magic making strength less important. Many hunter gatherers, that do depend on physical abilities to a great degree, are matriarchal in nature. Without going into alternative history BS, there is no predestined rule of male dominance, although it is common.
Now, in an imaginary world there is no reason to keep all the faults of this world. Ed made it that way and I am glad he did. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 10:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
But what of FR. Women in Faerun are, for the most part, allowed to be great religous leaders and get to run around and hit things with swords. My question is Why? Wait, no why is the wrong word. I already know why, so we can play female adventurers.
So, I guess my real question is How?
Easy answer if you look at it VERY basically.....
It's hard to argue with anyone when they are holding a sword to your throat!
But seriously..
With the current pantheon as it stands with a good mix of male and female deities and real world historic matriarcal societies mirrored in RPG by Drow culture & the Amazons I believe that it gives modern day players good reason to ignore that which we know and have been acustomed too, and play in good faith as equals....
You can't have an Amazon culture run by males so a good mix and equality is a basic part of RPG.
this is all IMO but I belive that most if not all gamers agree.
on a playing the game note!
Some of my most enjoyable games have been DM'ed by the female of the species. so equal at the table, equal in the game!
Delz |
I'm Back! |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 20:11:54
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| Another factor may have been that the first (and still existing) deities were female - Selune, Shar, and Chauntea. Many strong female deities have followed, being afforded at least equal respect as the male deities, unlike real world religions. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 21:16:35
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I dunno, many of our ancestors had/have pantheons filled with strong female deities and if you look back into Earth's history far enough you do find some nations that had female rulers and gender equality.
I'd say more but I don't feel comfortable discussing this on Candlekeep. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 23 Mar 2007 21:31:21 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 21:38:08
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Actually there clearly is not gender equality, just often more equal then what FR is being compared to.
In prior editions females did not have equal stats as far as equalility goes. The current removed that gender bias.
Females still tend to have "traditional" jobs when you look at the Coms, the milk maid as oposed to the farmer (almost always male) and so on.
FR religion of course plays a role in more equal treatment but that clearly is not always equal. There are female dominated societies and there are male dominated socities. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 21:59:24
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| Political correctness. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 23:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Actually there clearly is not gender equality, just often more equal then what FR is being compared to.
In prior editions females did not have equal stats as far as equalility goes. The current removed that gender bias.
I disagree with that, for the most part.
Ed's made it clear that gender-neutral titles for lords, ladies, nobles, kings, and queens, among humans have existed for a very long time in parts of the Realms.
Gender equality seems to have been "built into" the Realms from the ground up, as Kuje noted earlier... because Ed wanted it this way.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 00:12:16
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Well Kings and Queens amoung humans might be one thing, Lords and Ladies of course simalar.
Naked dancing females appear very common in Ed's world, the naked male dancer hardly ever reported (if ever). *Shrugs* Dieties that only allow one gender to be Clergy does not appear to be very gender equal either.
We disagree indeed. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 00:29:53
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Errr... Ed's said you're just as likely to find naked dancing men (wearing nipple-rings) as you would naked dancing women, in parts of the Realms. And let's not forget that naked suggestive behaviour isn't solely something devoted to being female. Ed's also said that you'll find just as many human males walking naked in moonlit gardens when signaling a desire for sex, as you would human females.
Ed's also noted a frequency of male striptease performances in festhalls and the like.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 04:07:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well Kings and Queens amoung humans might be one thing, Lords and Ladies of course simalar.
Naked dancing females appear very common in Ed's world, the naked male dancer hardly ever reported (if ever). *Shrugs* Dieties that only allow one gender to be Clergy does not appear to be very gender equal either.
We disagree indeed.
And many of those who dance naked in festhalls and such places are actually dopplegangers, spies, undercover Harper agents or otherwise very capable females (often rogues or wizards or thief guild members - just take look at FR Adventures, many of Ed's novels and Volo's guides).
I agree with Kuje and Sage that gender equality exists in the Realms because Ed has wanted it so. I also seem to recall that Ed's first DM was female, and this may or may not have influenced matters. On the other hand, even his first short stories seemed to feature equality between male and female protagonists.
There are also other points to consider, too. First, as Dargoth pointed out, the existence of the many branches of magic (for example, simple low-level village girls who are spellsingers or know raw/wild blood magic rituals). It may even be that females in the Realms have more potential and talent in this sort of "hedge wizardry"?
Another aspect of the Realms is the existence of various non-human races, and their influence (halflings and elves come immediately to mind). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 15:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
Since game mechanics don't take that into account, characters like Scyulla Darkhope (STR 13) are comparable to characters like Drizzt Do'Urden (STR 13) as far as musculature goes. (And I know that elves aren't as muscular as humans, but Drizzt is still a male.)
Don't forget that female drow are generally taller, heavier, and physically stronger than the males. Interesting that the society where gender dominance is switched, still has the physically stronger gender on top. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 15:41:09
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Also I believe someone once referenced Ed (though I can't remember where on Candlekeep exactly, possibly in a Blackstaff thread) saying that females have a more natural affinity for 'tuning in' to the weave.
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 22:26:30
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| Yes, I believe Mystra says this when she turns Elminster into Elmara in E:MoaM. That is why she does that in the first place, so El can gain a "woman's intuition" about the use of magic, and a new perspective on magic and life. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 22:56:54
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And these indicate gender equal?
"Don't forget that female drow are generally taller, heavier, and physically stronger than the males."
and
"I believe Mystra says this when she turns Elminster into Elmara in E:MoaM. That is why she does that in the first place, so El can gain a "woman's intuition" "
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 23:22:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
Yes, I believe Mystra says this when she turns Elminster into Elmara in E:MoaM. That is why she does that in the first place, so El can gain a "woman's intuition" about the use of magic, and a new perspective on magic and life.
The fact that the change also allowed Elminster to travel without drawing attention from his enemies at the time... likely factored into Mystra's reasonings as well. 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 24 Mar 2007 23:23:35 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 02:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Political correctness.
"Political correctness" is a rhetorical trick by which people in positions of power seek to malign treating people fairly by tarring all of egalitarianism with a handful of marginal academic excesses which rarely affect people's lives. Identifying Ed's preference for a fantasy world with less gender subjugation than ours as "political correctness" is as much a nonsense as most uses of that propaganda term. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 03:16:39
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| Sorry ya feel that way. Lighten up guy, this is a hobby. About a fantasy world. :) |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 03:32:26
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We've gone this route before. Lets do our best to avoid political discussions that reference real world political issues, as well as avoiding ascribing motives to the authors and designers that they themselves have never claimed.
Ascribing motives to others rather than dealing with known facts is a sure way to upset both that person and those trying to discuss a given topic, and even starting down the road of discussing current political attitudes is just asking for a derailment of the topic at hand.
Let's try our best to focus on what we are talking about here, keep everything civil, and try to avoid getting too far off track.
Thanks. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 12:15:26
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Kentinal don't confuse equality with the same. Saying males and females are 'equal' doesn't mean physically the same. It's about opportunities, and potential.
That said I don't think there is gender equality in the realms (and maybe thats not such a bad thing). Perhaps in the adventuring profession, but again you tend to see more males than females. Also it depends highly on the society. In Rashemen females aren't allowed to create magical items, males aren't allowed to become witches. I suspect there are similar variations in the nobility of certain cities.
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 22:20:28
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I shouldn't have been so glib, I suppose. (Still, folks, don't take any of this too seriously--it's a game, for crying out loud!)
Actually, in thinking more about this, I suspect it's probably a decision that was based on gameplay. In real life women are, as a rule, simply not as strong as men physically, as is amply evidenced in sports. So for martial warriors, at least, it's not realistic that women would be equal in ability with men. But precisely because this is a fantasy game, we can do what you wish with the design. Far more roleplaying options are opened up when women are phsycially as capable as men (on average). That allows for more freedom and creativity in character creation and roleplaying possibilities. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 22:59:06
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| Let's remember that each individual DM has absolute power over this issue in his/her campaigns. If you think that FR should have gender equality, make it so. It's your playground. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 23:05:13
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| This aspect of the Realms can't be based on gameplay, since it was in place years before Ed's group played D&D, and when he did he freely ignored aspects of the game he didn't want to change his world. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 23:15:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
This aspect of the Realms can't be based on gameplay, since it was in place years before Ed's group played D&D, and when he did he freely ignored aspects of the game he didn't want to change his world.
Indeed, and Ed started FR a decade or so before D&D was even published! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 00:45:21
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| Ed was how old when he was doing this? First dreaming it up I mean. |
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What caused FR gender equality?
