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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
 Posted - 02 May 2003 : 21:28:26
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I was just wondering what my fellow sages thought about these villains. They are definitely evil but I do not think they are VILE.
What do you think? And feel free to bring up villains I have not mentioned. I am not counting SACRIFICE as VILE because I always pictured evil deities as requiring this. Pretty much I just mean a VILE feel to them.
Not VIle:
Artermis Entreri
Fzoul Chembryl
City of Shade
The Zhentarim
King Obould
Eldreth Valuuthra
Shadow Thieves
Iron THrone
Church of Bane
Church of Shar
Monks of the Dark Moon
NON FR:
Darth Vader
Sauron
VILE:
Most Red Wizards
People of the Black Blood
Church of Cyric
Arcane Brotherhood
Daemonfey
Kir Lanans
Maluagrym
Mind Flayers
Beholders
Twisted Rune
The DROW worshippers of LLoth
Do you agree or disagree? Anything to add?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2003 : 21:51:30
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Not vile:
Jarlaxle. Too much panache. If he's vile, so is D'Artagnon.
Gazhneths(sp?). They're not just "not vile", they're pitiful worms.
Crenshininbon. Hey, that's its nature.
Halaster. He can't help it. He's insane.
Vile:
The Host Tower of the Arcane
The wererats of Calimport's sewers
You just say Fzoul is not vile because he's your avatar.  |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 03 May 2003 16:53:53 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2003 : 21:54:58
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
Not vile:
Jarlaxle. Too much panache. If he's vile, so is D'Artagnon.
Gazhneths(sp?). They're not just "not vile", they're pitiful worms.
Crenshininbon. Hey, that's its nature.
Halaster. He can't help it. He's insane.
Vile:
The Host Tower of the Arcane
The wererats of Climport's sewers
You just say Fzoul is not vile because he's your avatar.
I DO NOT!!!
I imagine him too practical... LIKE DArth VADER!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 02 May 2003 21:56:36 |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2003 : 21:59:08
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2003 : 22:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
"Lawful Evil: the 'practical' evil".
SOUNDS LIKE THE CHURCH OF BANE CAN HAVE A NEW BILLBOARD!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2003 : 22:53:16
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"Are you currently a member of the church of Cyric? Are you tired of worshipping an insane, wannabe deity who sheds portfolios the way a snake sheds skin? You don't want to wind up worshipping the God of Shabby Clothing, do you? Of course not. The solution to these problems, and more, lies in the New Church of Bane.
Of course we beleive in the power of evil, but it's evil with a purpose, guided by the light of Bane. If you're murdered by a fellow parishoner, you can rest assured it'll be for a good reason. With Cyric, well, maybe that other worshipper just didn't like the color of your boots.
Bane: organized, purposeful, pratcical. Not to mention, the same alignment as Loviatar <wink, wink, nudge, nudge>."
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Edited by - branmakmuffin on 03 May 2003 16:53:33 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2003 : 17:02:32
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Greetings,
I do not believe I would class Artemis Entreri as Non-Vile. On the other hand I do not like the idea of him being classed as totally vile either. To me Entreri is one of those gray-area antagonists, someone who is difficult to categorise.
If you consider most of his history, it is sprinkled with deeds both vile and not. There are some who believe that Entreri's amputation of Regis' finger could be considered a vile act. As well as this, Entreri has on occassion resorted to baiting his enemies, coaxing them into direct combat by threatening their friends' lives. This would seem to indicate a wicked and vile attitude towards the preciousness of life.
I suppose in the end, this difficultly to categorise is what makes Artemis such an interesting character.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2003 : 19:40:06
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quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94
I was just wondering what my fellow sages thought about these villains. They are definitely evil but I do not think they are VILE.
What do you think? And feel free to bring up villains I have not mentioned. I am not counting SACRIFICE as VILE because I always pictured evil deities as requiring this. Pretty much I just mean a VILE feel to them.
Not VIle:
Artermis Entreri
Fzoul Chembryl
City of Shade
The Zhentarim
King Obould
Eldreth Valuuthra
Shadow Thieves
Iron THrone
Church of Bane
Church of Shar
Monks of the Dark Moon
NON FR:
Darth Vader
Sauron
VILE:
Most Red Wizards
People of the Black Blood
Church of Cyric
Arcane Brotherhood
Daemonfey
Kir Lanans
Maluagrym
Mind Flayers
Beholders
Twisted Rune
The DROW worshippers of LLoth
Do you agree or disagree? Anything to add?
No I would say that well the most vile people there are in the D&D relm is ... Paladins, of good gods, clerics, of good gods. Umm .. and just gernerally most of them hero types... they always cause trouble * snickers* I guess that shows you what side I play on hehe.  |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Malice
Seeker
USA
83 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 06:38:55
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| Alright, does anyone here ever think that the OTHER people see YOU as vile???? I dont see anyone that way; I see them as trying for whatever things that they believe to be right. (::cough:: pacifist ::cough cough::) |
"Khaless? Ha. Vel'bol zhah nindol 'khaless' dos telanth? d'usstan zhaun ol naut." |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 14:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Malice
Alright, does anyone here ever think that the OTHER people see YOU as vile???? I dont see anyone that way; I see them as trying for whatever things that they believe to be right. (::cough:: pacifist ::cough cough::)
Yes ..... In one chron that a friend was running we finally got to 20th level ... I met a god ... Infact it was bane ... Bane told me I was to bad to his services.... I mean .. the worse thing my necromancer did was take a little kid and put maggots in him. It was an exparament ....  It needed to be done!..... I was trying to make a new spell that made zombies spout out poison maggots ... didnt work ... but my necromancer (NE) had a fun time watching the maggots eat their way out. If thats not vile. Think of the time that he sat down and made new clothing of of a bar maid ... And of course I took the care to never get cought... that is whey he was NE. But in anycase .... I also had a ranger at one time. Since in 3rd ed rangers can be evil that is. He got stuck on a boat with a half demon, a paladin, two mages, three theifs and some others... The sail broke because one mage went made and then began to randomly use a wond of wonders, and fet the mast on fire... SOOO .. we drifed around. Needless to say my ranger started to stalk the lower ranks of the ship up to the captin. The whole time he had ONE room of the ship that was devoted to his ... "skinning" of the ships crew. After that ... there was no one left but the partty members. Im a lot smarter IRL and more charismatic IR as well. I normally have my chars reflect that because .. thats just the way i like things. SO I talked a few of them down into my "Safe room" and well ... took care of them to. Needless to say I finally made a sail for the last three of us on the ship ... and we finally made it to land. All because of my "GOOD" idea. lol. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 17:11:06
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| OK, Cult_Leader, I've seen you use it more than once. What is a "chron"? "Chronology"? "Chronograph"? "Chronomancer"? |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 20:39:23
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
OK, Cult_Leader, I've seen you use it more than once. What is a "chron"? "Chronology"? "Chronograph"? "Chronomancer"?
Chronicle. Its a basic term for RPG games that we use up and around here for multiple RPGS. A lot of people around my area use that word. So its kind of habit to just call it chron. Kind of like us always going HAZZZAAA when soemthign goes right in a game ... or YOIL when we charge... Its more or less a fave ooc saying .. however when I play a falen paladin, black gaurd, or paladin I always say JYHAD for my battle charge.  |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
Edited by - Cult_Leader on 05 May 2003 20:42:03 |
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 20:50:42
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There are characters/groups on the non-vile list that have done things that I consider to be vile.
It really comes down to the actions being vile, regardless of the reasons for them being done. You can be practical AND vile. Being vile also doesn't mean doing vile things ALL the time either.
Darth Vader tortured Leia AND Han, and with Han didn't even ask any questions. He also encased him in Carbonite without knowing if it would kill him or not.
Sauron was probably the most practical of the list, but he still did very vile things to his own ends. Just look at his entire history, from the first age all the way to the end of the third.
I could go on, but I think all get my point. Intentions or reasons aside, it's the actions that count if you want to label a group or individual vile.
There are a few that I've never heard of on both lists that I'd like to know more about:
Non-vile:
City of Shade, Eldreth Valuuthra, Monks of the Dark Moon
Vile:
People of the Black Blood, Kir Lanans, Twisted Rune.
Email me at Yasraena
Any info would be appreciated! Thanks in advance.
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"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 21:13:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena
There are characters/groups on the non-vile list that have done things that I consider to be vile.
It really comes down to the actions being vile, regardless of the reasons for them being done. You can be practical AND vile. Being vile also doesn't mean doing vile things ALL the time either.
Darth Vader tortured Leia AND Han, and with Han didn't even ask any questions. He also encased him in Carbonite without knowing if it would kill him or not.
Sauron was probably the most practical of the list, but he still did very vile things to his own ends. Just look at his entire history, from the first age all the way to the end of the third.
I could go on, but I think all get my point. Intentions or reasons aside, it's the actions that count if you want to label a group or individual vile.
There are a few that I've never heard of on both lists that I'd like to know more about:
Non-vile:
City of Shade, Eldreth Valuuthra, Monks of the Dark Moon
Vile:
People of the Black Blood, Kir Lanans, Twisted Rune.
Email me at Yasraena
Any info would be appreciated! Thanks in advance.
If you get the Lord of Darkness supplement you can find LOTS of information about all of them
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2003 : 04:05:27
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I was actually holding off getting that supplement. But since I know there are a few vile orgs and individuals in there, I'm going to have to get it now!
Thanks Mournblade. |
"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2003 : 22:29:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena
I was actually holding off getting that supplement. But since I know there are a few vile orgs and individuals in there, I'm going to have to get it now!
Thanks Mournblade.
HAH!
No worries
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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MelkorUnchained
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2003 : 00:00:26
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I have to agree about Sauron, since everything I remember him doing was, although evil, rational and with a purpose. Sauron just does whatever he needs to to fulfull his goals, even if it happens to be a pretty wicked deed.
Darth Vader I would classify as vile because of all the random/pointless executions he made in ESB, and how he went back on his word to Lando (lots of bad guys keep their words- the noble villian archtype), except that being Darth Vader was not his natural state, it was imposed on him by Palpatine and his horrible childhood experiences. Not to say that there's no such thing as personal responsibility, or even to defend his actions, but there's a big difference between someone who is brought to evil by an outside force combined with very bad experiences that left him hardened towards pretty much everyone, and someone who becomes evil all on their own. That, and Darth Vader's redemption in the end keep me from putting him on the "vile" list, although he did do some horrible things.
To me, the most interesting bad guys are the ones who believe they're doing the right thing, and in some instances even are, but for whatever reason are at odds with the heros. Some examples of some of these baddies would be Magneto, Satan from Paradise Lost(ok, he's the hero, but you know what I mean), or Agent Smith. The more complex the villian, the better the villian. And the better the villian, the better the story. |
"Your saying I could dodge arrows?"
"No, I'm saying that when your ready, you won't have to." |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2003 : 02:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by MelkorUnchained
I have to agree about Sauron, since everything I remember him doing was, although evil, rational and with a purpose. Sauron just does whatever he needs to to fulfull his goals, even if it happens to be a pretty wicked deed.
Darth Vader I would classify as vile because of all the random/pointless executions he made in ESB, and how he went back on his word to Lando (lots of bad guys keep their words- the noble villian archtype), except that being Darth Vader was not his natural state, it was imposed on him by Palpatine and his horrible childhood experiences. Not to say that there's no such thing as personal responsibility, or even to defend his actions, but there's a big difference between someone who is brought to evil by an outside force combined with very bad experiences that left him hardened towards pretty much everyone, and someone who becomes evil all on their own. That, and Darth Vader's redemption in the end keep me from putting him on the "vile" list, although he did do some horrible things.
To me, the most interesting bad guys are the ones who believe they're doing the right thing, and in some instances even are, but for whatever reason are at odds with the heros. Some examples of some of these baddies would be Magneto, Satan from Paradise Lost(ok, he's the hero, but you know what I mean), or Agent Smith. The more complex the villian, the better the villian. And the better the villian, the better the story.
I certainly have to agree with you on MAGNETO. I always thought he was a great villain, and everytime he does something you just ask "Can I blame him?"
Darth Vader I agree with you on with a second thought because if Lucas associated me with the abomination of PHANTOM MENACE, I would probably turn VILE as well. In fact all of my evil could not compare to the VILE portrayal of Star Wars in the first episode. STAR WARS I--- A NEW VIDEO GAME!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2003 : 09:47:19
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MelkorUnchained said -
quote:
To me, the most interesting bad guys are the ones who believe they're doing the right thing, and in some instances even are, but for whatever reason are at odds with the heros. Some examples of some of these baddies would be Magneto, Satan from Paradise Lost(ok, he's the hero, but you know what I mean), or Agent Smith. The more complex the villian, the better the villian. And the better the villian, the better the story.
Let us remember however, that Magneto was also partly responsible for spawning one of the most vilest creatures in the history of the Marvel Universe - ONSLAUGHT.
Anyway, back to the topic - I would still like to know what everybody thinks about Artemis - whether he should be categorised as Vile or Non-Vile.
Let's hear from you...
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Do you think any of these villains are VILE?
