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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 16:22:46
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As it was the most voted for topic for Realmslore Exploration, I thought that I would start a discussion up about it.
It occurs to me that in the PHB there is an interesting subtext to the section on magic. That subtext says, "All things being equal, this is what you should have access to."
Of course, FR is predicated on the principle that all things are NOT equal. That different regions have different needs and different desires, whether these differences are culturally or environmentally deterministic.
My thought is that if we can determine the magical mores for one region, it will become easier to determine those of a different region.
Of course, Prc's and Feats seem custom designed to handle these differences, but I believe that there is a much more fundamental manner in which these differences can be explained. Spells Lists and Availability, old concepts from the FRA recently brought back up in a post by George Krashos.
Spell Lists and Availability says that not all spells are available in every region, and not all spells are equally esteemed. In other words, while burning hands may be commonly available to all wizards in the Luruar (those darned Evermoors), it is a distinctly less useful spell in Calimshan where there is no empircal need for that spell (other than Calishites like FIRE... see RoF).
All that being said, we probably know more about Elven Magic than any other kind. It has been written of the most and has a few feats dedicated to it.
So, if I were a generic Elven spellcaster, what arcane themes would be culturally important to me? What spells would be the most useful, considering my upbringing? How has my native environment shaped the traditions of magic that I am now heir to? At what spells would I scoff? What spells might I never be exposed to if I never set out adventuring?
Your thoughts?
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*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 16:45:09
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I think this is a great topic. One large factor I see my players commenting on are the differences they perceive from region to region. The spells held in high esteem and great demand in one region would differ to some degree to another, which will help me add more local color and flavor to my world and allow my players to see the contrast that makes the Realms come alive.
I suppose in a generic context you could start this type of regional spell availability based the area your characters are in. In areas such as Waterdeep, Amn, Sembia, and other merchant dominated "mega" marketplaces you might find many spells in use that help in commerce and communications (charms, illusions, appearance altering) though such large, multicultural areas would also be melting pots of races and have a wide variety of other spells. The north would likely prize combat spells in frontier areas or where monster unfriendly monster populations might be closer than comfortable. Also cold resistant spells would be in great demand. The southerners would seek cooling spells such as that on the Calishite Mail of Cooling.
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 20:54:11
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absolutly, magic should be adapted to the region as clothiing or technologie, it should even defer from the diffrent regional groups, the same way different tribes or cities have different rituals, traditions and rules
it should even defer from the different teachers, but at that point the "style" is DM's choice |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 20:59:39
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Lets see if we can expand on Elven magic for a bit...
What environmental determinants to Elves face?
Almost regardless of subrace, elves tend to live in temperate wooded lands. Even in cities like Myth Drannor, their cities are almost totally surrounded by trees and unbroken wilderness. From a strictly military perspective, then we can assume a few things:
-When elves engage their enemies, both sides will have cover available to them. Thus, spells that require attack rolls, even touch attack rolls, are not as desirable as those that do not.
-Because the elves revere their wild surroundings, spells that would be wantonly destructive to these surroundings would be less popular than those that are neatly destructive to an intended target.
-Given an environment laden with cover, elves would seek spells that would allow them to accurately locate their enemies.
-Because their climate is temperate, there would not be a great demand for environmental conditioners (i.e. endure elements)
-Elven settlements do not tend to be coastal, nor are the elves typically considered to be sea faring people; thus certain spell components would be rare, or even unavailable (i.e. 100 gp pearls). |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 12 Feb 2007 21:02:05 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 21:22:41
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What is unique about Elven Magical Traditions, and what conclusions can we draw from them?
The most unique facet of Elven Magic, bar none, is the emphasis on hybridization. Elves are well reknowned for their penchant to blend arcane knowledge with other skills resulting in the (presumably) greater efficacy of both. The Bladesinger and Arcane Archer traditions are only the most formalized and well known examples of such elven hybridization. In 2E, under the threat of level limits, multi-classing was an economical expedient to keeping up in the world. In basic editions (which were bereft of classes) elves were typified by their martial skill AND their arcane strength. In 3.X this penchant for multi-classing has only accelerated. In fact, at the most fundamental (lowest) levels, an elf who becomes a wizard is also proficient with Longsword and Longbow.
examples: Elaith Craulnober, Merith Strongbow, and the Lord of Deepingdale (whose name I forget).
However, there is an equally strong tradition of exceptionally powerful elf Wizards. In this segment of society, elf wizards are esteemed among the most proficient and powerful wizards on Toril; their mastery of magical minutae unparalleled. Their inheritance is that of the ancient elven empires who formed the foundations of magical knowledge. It is notable that not only their central god, but also a few goddesses esteem magic highly and can be called gods of magic.
examples: Araevin, Srinshee, and several notable others whose names escape me at the moment.
So what conclusions may we draw from our studies of tradition and environmental determinants?
1) Most members of elven society (and thus most elven magicians) study magic in order to enhance other skills to unparalelled degrees, and not for the pursuit of magic alone. Thus elven rogues and rangers want to learn spider climb and invisibility, and care proportionately less for dispel magic or Nystul's Magic Aura.
2) The most common elven spells would be those spells that are most useful, not those that are more flashy or destructive.
3) Elven mages would lean away from fire and lightning spells (which could damage their homes), and more towards non-destructive spells or spells with fewer side effects.
4) Spells like identify and analyze dweomer would not be of interest to most elven mages, because they are most interested in enhancing their own skills. This is compounded by the rarity of 100gp pearls within inland forests, and the fact that most elven magic items are not found by elves, but are commisioned and purchased or given as gift. There is simply no need to identify it in you know allready what it is. On the other hand, those elves that dedicate themselves wholly to the arcane arts would place special emphaisis on these spells to distinguish themselves from "dabblers."
Agree? Disagree? Comments? |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 12 Feb 2007 21:30:35 |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 23:13:28
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The definition of "generic elven spellcaster" itself is open to some exploration:
The majority of elven arcane spellcasters are wizards, with the goal of many (particular those of Evermeet) being to eventually learn greater paths of magic, such as that of the arcane archer (known to the elves of Evermeet as the spellarcher), bladesinger, or high mage. The second most common elven arcane spellcaster is the bard; it is said that human music is one of the few things that fascinates almost all elves regarding that race, and it is certainly true that elf bards are more common amongst those elves who live with or near humans. Some fables claim that the elven gift of magic to humans was in exchange for the human gift of music to the elves; if so, it would seem that even the traditions of the fabled spellsingers are inspired by ancient human bards.
In the modern age elf sorcerers are a rare thing indeed, but elven myths relating to the Reign of Dragons tell of elven concubines of draconic overlords occassionally producing half-dragon/half-elf offspring, who in turn invariably gave birth to elven children with sorcerous abilities. Other legends speak of both Ilythiir and Aryvandaar being home to more than a few elf sorcerers of a fiendish heritage, and of course the recent fey'ri threat revealed the widespread demonic taint that infested Siluvanede. It is of little surprise that sorcerers were relatively common in that ancient realm, and indeed amongst the fey'ri. More recent tales tell of one or more celadrins, themselves a rarity, having given birth to elven children with sorcerous abilities.
Of the non-PH standard classes:
Beguilder - The path of the beguiler is most commonly walked by those of the moon-elf subrace, but it is a path only occassionally taken even by them; the class is far more common amongst half-moon elves, especially those raised by their human parent. A handful of fey'ri have learnt the ways of the beguiler since returning to the Realms, and the daemonfey's innate alter self ability has proven to be an excellent complement to the life of the beguiler.
Duskblade - Many of the most ancient elven kingdoms employed duskblades, but over time the tradition has largely been superseded by that of the bladesinger.
Spellthief - As with the the duskblade, spellthiefs were found in many ancient elven kingdoms, particularly Ilythiir. While even then the official view of such elves was usually one of disapproval, elf spellthiefs more than proved their worth during times of war. They are exceedingly rare in the present age, though the tradition remains alive amongst the drow and certain tribes of wood elves.
Warlock - The supernatural powers of the warlock are almost unheard of amongst surface elves of the modern age, and those that do display such abilities are usually exiled from their people, if not killed. Elf warlocks existed in the ancient empires of Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, and Siluvanede, and modern day fey'ri and drow warlocks are not unknown.
Warmage - More commonly known amongst the elves as battlemages, warmages make up a small but important part of Evermeet's defenses. Only one elven war college exists and it typically trains no more than a dozen students at a time, but several students of this college fought and made great names for themselves during the recent war in Cormanthor, and those who survived the war and chose not to return to Evermeet are considering opening a second college on the mainland.
Wu Jen - Some human bards tell a strange tale, one of an elf of Evermeet who travelled to the distant east and came back displaying strange and wondrous magical abilities. A few storytellers go on to claim that this elf, or at least one of his descendants, still lives in a cave somewhere in the Realms, willing to teach easten magic to any elf who finds him. The response given by elves who hear this tale varies, from an exasperated sigh or a disapproving tut to a sarcastic snicker or a lighthearted chuckle. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 13 Feb 2007 00:07:41 |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 07:51:49
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Now this is a topic I sink my proverbial teeth in. Allow me to shift things temporarily by mentioning some human magical idioms:
Southern Magic: Well, as far as regional styles go, the style is typically what comes to my mind. While vaguely explained as a feat (for Mulan-ethnic humans) in Races of Faerūn and mentioned in various written works (the Shadow Adept in the short story "Darksword" passes his Shadow Weave skills off as Southern Magic), I haven't yet seen it elaborated on. My take is this: Due to direct deific intervention in Unther and Mulhorand, the lines between the Art and the Power might have blurred, in much the same way that the NPC class Adept straddles the line.
Thay: The home of the ever-infamous magocratic ruling class of Red Wizards, I would actually guess that as far as magical selection goes, Thay would be quite close-minded. Specific spells might only pass between masters and their apprentices (whether legitimately or by deceit), and of course, along the lines of specific specialites. Certain rare or unique spells might never leave the tharch in question.
Other than that, we do know that Thayan magic and culture emphasizes tattoo-based circle magic for those spells needing increased power, as well as what I would consider over-specialization in a specific discipline.
Magelords: LEoF describes this style as a "fencing or a martial arts style" that's been passed down over the years. No definite origin is given, other than a famous group back when Secomber was still Athalantar. The Magelord style is notable for being a combat style emphasizing targeted rays and mastery of a handful spells that the Magelord can modify on the fly. The style (or at least, the PrC) also overlaps with a bit of rogue (sneak attack), but other than being notable in the Western Heartlands, the style isn't exactly regional.
Netherese: Someone can explain it, since it's one of the more frequently mentioned traditions.
Imaskari: Not to knock the Netherese any, but the Imaskari Empire was even older, and less fragments of it survive. Artificing was evidently a large part of the Imaskari traditiontheir emperor was referred to as the "Lord Artificer". There's the Seven Imaskarcana, the portals used to abduct the Untheric and Mulhorandi peoples, the seal-barriers used to bar their gods, and countless constructs. Due to the cultural paranoia of divine magic, a large portion of the empire's arcane might went into interdicting and countering divine spells. |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 08:17:20
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And continuing...
Narfell: The old Nars favored conjurative spells, as well as glyph-based magic, as a large portion of their cultural tradition involved the summoning and binding of fiends and similar outsiders, as well pacts and tapping into the powers of the lower planes. During their epic war with Raumathar, this escalated to both the Crown of Narfell and the summoning of the demon lord Eltab (who would go on to cause further problems).
Raumathar: The rival to old Narfell, the Raumathari Empire focused on at least three elements to their magical style: construct artificing, elemental summoning, and battlemagic. This style of battlemagic combined evocation spells with sword-focus/channeling in a melee style. It's interesting to note that the PrC describes them as "powerful evokers whose spells could scatter demonic armies like chaff in the wind" despite not using divine magic.
Wychlaran/the Hathan (Rashemi Witches): An offshoot cult of Raumvirans fled the society at its downfall, and were a bit miffed at what they say as excessed to Raumathari culture and magic. This group combined with local druids and changed the evocation-channeling in nature-channeling, and eventually became the Witches of Rashemen. Rashemi magic uses circle magic, spirit channeling, and the ability to either instantly swap out spells (for spontaneous casters, decreased metamagic time).
As far as Rashemi society goes, it's interesting to note that male spellcasters are kept cloistered and through cultural taboo, are the only arcanists in the region allowed to craft permanent magic items.
Incantatrixes: Does anyone know if the Icantatrix style is tied to a specific region? Other than its inclusion in the PGtF, I haven't found out much about the discipline other than what's mentioned in the PrC. |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 14:45:09
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mare,
Thanks for your input. I don't know how equipped we are to handle all of the alternate classes presented in the Complete series. I don't even have access to any of those that you have mentioned.
Daviot,
Very solid! So, let me get this straight
Immaskar- place special emphasis on Craft Item feats
Thayan Magic cannot be approached regionally, it may only be approached based upon the body of knowledge of the master, or the lineage of that master.
Nar spellcasters- should have common access to summon monster spells and related spells and feats
Rauthmar- you seem to indicate that Rauthmar Battlemage Prc embodies the region.
Rashamen- Has been highly influenced by druidic traditions, and so (perhaps) should have access to some cross over spells.
On Southern Magic, I've a bone to pick. I believe that there is a distinct difference between Southern Magic (exhibited most recently in the novel Blackstaff by the villain) and the Magic of the Old Empires. I don't know that the influence of the Mulhorandi Pantheon would have affected the magical traditions of Tethyr, Amn, Calimshan, the Shaar, etc... Mulhorand constitutes a separate and distinct region.
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*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 15:59:59
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"Southern Magic" is the name that has been applied to magic from the Old Empires ever since 2nd edition. If any official material has referred to magic from the Lands of Intrigue as southern magic, either the author is wrong, or the character who calls it such is wrong  .
EDIT: Calimshite elemental magic is far more likely to be related to the magical traditions of Zakhara than those of Mulhorand and Unther. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 13 Feb 2007 16:01:10 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 16:53:31
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
"Southern Magic" is the name that has been applied to magic from the Old Empires ever since 2nd edition. If any official material has referred to magic from the Lands of Intrigue as southern magic, either the author is wrong, or the character who calls it such is wrong .
EDIT: Calimshite elemental magic is far more likely to be related to the magical traditions of Zakhara than those of Mulhorand and Unther.
Point Taken. What, then, would you percieve to be the distinct magical nature of the Lands of Intrigue? |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 17:35:58
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The magic of that area was heavily influenced by its ancient djinni and efreeti rules, and the two Calishite traditions of elemental magic (air and fire) are quite popular amongst mages of the land. As I said, it's probably very similar if not directly related to the magic of Zakhara, which is also strongly influenced by the elements.
Of course, the Shoon Empire also had a major role to play in regards to the development of magic in the Lands of Intrigue region and indeed the other surrounding areas, such as the Lake of Steam and the Western Heartlands. |
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Pasta Fzoul
Seeker
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 05:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Daviot
Incantatrixes: Does anyone know if the Icantatrix style is tied to a specific region? Other than its inclusion in the PGtF, I haven't found out much about the discipline other than what's mentioned in the PrC.
As a matter of fact, according to the 2e book Cult of the Dragon (which I think may be the only place they are explained in any detail), they are, sort of. From page 126: "Incantatrixes (or incantatars, the infrequently encountered
male form) are specialist wizards in the school of incantation.
Incantatrixes have been discovered only in western
Faerūn, and rarely more than a handful are well-known in
any generation." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 06:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasta Fzoul
quote:
Originally posted by Daviot
Incantatrixes: Does anyone know if the Icantatrix style is tied to a specific region? Other than its inclusion in the PGtF, I haven't found out much about the discipline other than what's mentioned in the PrC.
As a matter of fact, according to the 2e book Cult of the Dragon (which I think may be the only place they are explained in any detail), they are, sort of. From page 126: "Incantatrixes (or incantatars, the infrequently encountered
male form) are specialist wizards in the school of incantation.
Incantatrixes have been discovered only in western
Faerūn, and rarely more than a handful are well-known in
any generation."
They were originally described in an old issue of Dragon. According to The DragonDex, it was issue 90.
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gribble_the_munchkin
Acolyte
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 16:26:52
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My housemate and I had a lengthy discussion about this and were very much in favour of writing some very complex house rules about it. But we never got round to it.
In our discussions we decided to to have a version of spellcraft for each type of magic (Mulhorandi/Untherite, Netherese, Northern, Calishite, Thayan, Elven, etc). You mage would have to have trained in a certain style (that of his tutors naturally) rolls to do with magic in your own style are as per the PHB, rolls outside of your style are more difficult, certain styles are heavily linked (such as netherese and Halruaan, or Mulhorandi and thayan) and are not as heavily penalised.
When you learn a new spell you have to mark down what style you learnt it from. i.e. Bob the Elven wizard buys a scroll of Jim the Thayan and manages to learn the spell on it. The spell is a thayan spell and is marked as such on Bobs spellbook.
Hence an experienced adventuring mage would probably have a core set of magic from their style and a number of spells from different styles that they've picked up along the way. A mage that had lived his entire life on Evermeet would probably have only Elven magic and would find identifying and even comprehending Thayan magic very hard (although of course, study would help).
You could also learn spellcraft from other schools and for related schools the cost would be reduced (i.e. 1 skill point buys two points of spellcraft from a related school).
I never did get it all typed up and finalised but i liked the idea then and i'm liking it still. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 16:46:33
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| I have been playing round with the idea of using the Path magic idea from an old Dragon magazine ( don't ask me which right now ). This would make it easier to set up regional differences than the School system, more like an extended version of the Zakharan system. I also like the idea included of spells having to be learned after a certain order within the path; this makes the search for specific spells more interesting. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 17:57:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I have been playing round with the idea of using the Path magic idea from an old Dragon magazine ( don't ask me which right now ). This would make it easier to set up regional differences than the School system, more like an extended version of the Zakharan system. I also like the idea included of spells having to be learned after a certain order within the path; this makes the search for specific spells more interesting.
That's actually how they set up the the Shadow Magic system in the Tome of Magic (3.5 version). There are three different "sets" of paths: apprentice (1st-3rd level), (4-6), and master (7-9).
An apprentice path has a 1st level, 2nd level, and 3rd level "mystery" to it, and you can't learn the 3rd level part of the path without learning the 2nd level one (though you can learn other 1st level mysteries, but you have to learn the next part of the path before you can complete the path).
(mysteries are what Shadow Magic spells are referred to in the book) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 18:12:25
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I have been playing round with the idea of using the Path magic idea from an old Dragon magazine ( don't ask me which right now ). This would make it easier to set up regional differences than the School system, more like an extended version of the Zakharan system. I also like the idea included of spells having to be learned after a certain order within the path; this makes the search for specific spells more interesting.
That's actually how they set up the the Shadow Magic system in the Tome of Magic (3.5 version). There are three different "sets" of paths: apprentice (1st-3rd level), (4-6), and master (7-9).
An apprentice path has a 1st level, 2nd level, and 3rd level "mystery" to it, and you can't learn the 3rd level part of the path without learning the 2nd level one (though you can learn other 1st level mysteries, but you have to learn the next part of the path before you can complete the path).
(mysteries are what Shadow Magic spells are referred to in the book)
This way of using magic increases the sense of mystery at times and I think it would fit my game at least.
The thing I liked in the system set forth in the Dragon article is that it is not to rigid, you can "jump" over a spell or to, but not more. The system is loose enough that you can set up lists as needed ex, the way of the three, the way of the dream, the way of changing, of the spider etc. This can be used to set up combinations specific to some regions, mages or periods.
I have not used the 2ed. system for some time now, using non-D&D systems, but I will probably use this system the next time if the players are willing. |
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Regionally Idiomatic Magic
