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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 03:05:22
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I do not think so, but I have heard many who think so. I would be curious to hear your feelings on this and see how you back up your stance.
I think one of the reasons it seems the big winners in the Realms seems to be "the good guys", but I just think that is a mis-perception.
Across the Realms the "bad guys" have been very agressive the past few years and what seems to be huge gains by good are actually just the start of the Realms coming back into balance. I can see a few more "good" things happing that affect large areas of the Realms before we see a big shift in another direction.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 08:51:44
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The problem is that too often I see the wrong good guys win and the right bad guys loose. Worse for me is when the wrong bad guys win because that doesn't even have the satisfaction of evil being punished.
My opinions in a nutshell:
Villains who Need to Win
* Fzoul and Manshoon should conquer a few kingdoms to show they mean business. Show us why the Zhents are the greatest evil in the Realms.
* Bane
* Ditto the Church of Cyric (Malik SORT of did this)
* Have the Thayans also score some major victories like conquering Mulhorand or something
Villains who shouldn't win
* The Shades
* Shar
* Daemonfae
* Lolth
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 13:28:59
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| Well, the Zhents score a major victory in Final Gate, and the church of Bane conquered a city and a town (Mintar and Kzelter) a few years back. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 00:46:14
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| I didn't like the Last Mythal series, but for the record the daemonay don't win, and the Zhentarim don't lose in that novel. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 14:03:32
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| I think sometimes it is more of a balance as in the source books the bad guys get major victories while the good guys get them in novels, with the occasional exception. |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 15:03:04
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| The good guys seem to win more probably because those victories tend to be kinda on the small scaled side while the villians seem to get the major victory. Those who complain that even the major victory are too little must remember that it has only been a few years. How many countries in real life can launch an invasion every few years and keep the victory? Considering that, the villians have actually done quite well |
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Virendar
Acolyte
29 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 16:38:13
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| it would be nice if a bad guy would win in 1 series....and then the next series (10 years later or something) a hero rises and defeats him. |
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 19:42:28
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| Or make a series of books in line with the "Rogue" books, that tells us the tales of the great victories of the powers of darknes. From their point og view... |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 20:17:29
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| and again a few years later the hero is defeated by another villian who wants power and than a few years later that one is defeated by another hero |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 10:07:56
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I think the Harpells should win everything ever.
THAT would be an interesting Realms  |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 13:49:26
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I tend to agree. It's hard to take the villians seriously when they are insanely high level and never seem to have any meaningful victories.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The problem is that too often I see the wrong good guys win and the right bad guys loose. Worse for me is when the wrong bad guys win because that doesn't even have the satisfaction of evil being punished.
My opinions in a nutshell:
Villains who Need to Win
* Fzoul and Manshoon should conquer a few kingdoms to show they mean business. Show us why the Zhents are the greatest evil in the Realms.
* Bane
* Ditto the Church of Cyric (Malik SORT of did this)
* Have the Thayans also score some major victories like conquering Mulhorand or something
Villains who shouldn't win
* The Shades
* Shar
* Daemonfae
* Lolth
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"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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yargarth
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 06:14:44
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| I think it would be very interesting to see a kingdom be ruled by evil people for a hundred + years, but it will never happen. |
"You take a step, then another. That's the journey. But to take a step with your eyes open is not a journey at all, it's a remaking of your own mind."
-Orson Scott Card
Ender in Exile |
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mavericace
Seeker
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 08:12:26
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| I am kind of confused by what you mean yargarth. Thay has been around for a very long time; maybe I am misunderstanding you. |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 13:35:13
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| There's also Calimshan, which has had mainly evil qyssars, mameluks, and pashas for millenia. Dambrath has had mostly evil rulers for over five centuries. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 14:26:48
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Don't forget most of the civilizations in the Underdark  |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 16:54:26
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| Thay ranks high on that list too. |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 03:11:37
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| Shade |
I'm always the Wizard! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 14:54:47
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| I agree with the necessity of having the bad guys win, not only for the first book of a trilogy, but for the LAST book of a series and having a profound impact on everything around Zhentil Keep, Thay, or whatnot. It kinda gets boring to always see the scheming and all that with no real results coming out of it. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 18:12:56
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| I would say that the Erevis Cale trilogy didn't precisely end within a win for the good guys. Sure, the antagonist was defeated, but this directly leads to a considerable amount of destruction in Faerun. And of course the main protagonist of the trilogy is a neutral aligned priest of Mask. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 18:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
It kinda gets boring to always see the scheming and all that with no real results coming out of it.
Especially if it seems like the bad guys only lost by being stupid. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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initiate
Learned Scribe
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 01:18:50
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However I examine this question, my answer comes up as "nope".
As was said earlier in this thread, what we call "evil" has taken some big steps over the last few years, and has generally been more aggressive. The various factions which we call evil have been sticking their necks out more recently, and when you do that kind of thing there's always the risk of getting smacked around. Also, from WotC's point of view, in some cases success of the foul schemes undertaken by various villains would lead to great difficulties in crafting future stories.
Yet the "good guys" have not had things all their own way. The WotSQ series, for instance, stands as a clear victory for Lolth over Eilistraee, (sacred sword snapped in half and everything.) Even when the "good guys" do indisputably triumph, costs may be paid which will, in one way or another, resound across the Realms, (see "Blackstaff".)
Also, the faces of evil are many, many, many. Just because we have seen some defeated or set back does not mean lots of others aren't still kicking. I have a distinct feeling that we're going to see the Red Wizards, (and more specifically Szass Tam, who's placement at the center of a Realms novel is long overdue), gain big in the very near future. [There's a sample chapter for Richard Lee Byers' "Unclean" up on wizards.com. 'Tis good.]
Now, as to which, if any, villains should be winning, that's entirely a matter of opinion. Me, I happen to think that Manshoon is pretty awesome, and by extension the Zhents to a certain degree. Richard Baker's "Farthest Reach" is not as fresh in my mind as I might like, but I recall being quite pleased with the Zhentarim maneuvering contained therein. I have not yet read "Final Gate", and have heard some ... mixed impressions of it whilst browsing these scrolls, and thus do not know how Fzoul and Co. fair in that book. Szass Tam also seems to be an excellent villain figure, Lolth and her "children" are cool if arguably overused, and so on. Yet all things in moderation. I enjoyed watching Fzoul's plan in Hillsfar succeed. Does this mean that I would like to see the Zhents ransack Shadowdale? Certainly not. It just means that when Manshoon devises some devilish scheme to unseat an upstart Zhent rival, I smile and caper with glee.
This is entirely subjective, but as a reader of stories, I find the prospect of reading about the victory of distasteful, evil characters far less appetizing than the triumph of their "good" counterparts. In most cases, (I know there are exceptions), a reader is likely to sympathize more with the "good" people than the "bad" people, and reading a line of novels in which the forces of darkness swept the floor with your favourite characters with even the slightest degree of regularity would probably grow disheartening and annoying very quickly. I think, and I could be wrong, that WotSQ put a few people off this way. Perhaps shockers like the conclusion of the "War of the Spider Queen" are necessary to keep readers from becoming complacent and cynical; but I think that such should be the exception, not the rule.
I think that there are ways to steer the middle course in this and some of them have been used already. Evil triumphing over other evil, (thus gaining greater powers to employ in the future, "moohahahahah"), was used in "War of the Spider Queen", (with the exception of the Eilistraee thing, on which I cannot bring myself to speak further right now.) Also, evil gaining as a sub-plot, as seen in "The Last Mythal". I responded to the latter very well. The Zhentarim gained, I enjoyed watching, and no one who I liked over much got killed or even bloodied.
There's also the whole question of WotC's policies, and the code of ethics, which I think is worth discussing around about now, as it seems to be changing somewhat, but that's a whole different topic.
I apologize for running on thus; I'm not used to condensing my thoughts.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 01:57:49
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quote:
Originally posted by initiate
This is entirely subjective, but as a reader of stories, I find the prospect of reading about the victory of distasteful, evil characters far less appetizing than the triumph of their "good" counterparts.
I feel the same way...usually. In my personal opinion, if I'm cheering on the villain instead of the "good guys", it means the author didn't write the protagonists in a way that makes them appealing to me (or to be more blunt about it--it means I don't find the protagonists to be well-written, for any number of reasons).
Great post, by the way, and welcome to the forums. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 11:34:41
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regarding this topic.
Are there any good novels which depict an "Evil doer" winning rarther than the "Heroes" coming through in the end?
I feel that for a balance the bad guy's could win a few more and I would like to see it happen in a trilogy. I know this goes against the grain as far as novel / adventures happen, face it you create a hero to win not lose! But It would be nice to see the Hero lose and the big baddie win for a change. It will keep the spice in the game rarther than Good will always over come and Evil always turns upon itself!!
Just a thought.
imagine if the Cult of the Dragon or Thay became the Realms Overlords for say 100 years... What a come back the Goodly races could have in the end, Yes I know I have just contradicted myself but you get my gist!
Delz
PS:
I'm toying with the idea of running a truly evil char in my next game
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I'm Back! |
Edited by - Delzounblood on 22 Feb 2007 11:35:33 |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 11:57:54
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I just find the depiction of the major bad guys being epic level keystone cops to be a tad frustrating. We all like to see the good guys triumph, and I'm certainly not saying that I'd like to see Cormyr, Waterdeep, or the Silvermarches fall. On the other hand it's hard to take the bad guys seriously when evry major bad guy organization seems all but incapable of gaining and/or consolidating any meaningful goals. I liked the turn in "The Farthest Reach" with the Zhents actually gaining and holding some geography for a change. On the other hand one of my favorite PCs is a Ranger of Daggerdale. I like the current storyline of Daggerdale being liberated from the Zehts, but the Zehts need to se a viable threat to keep them interesting as antagonists. Humanoid hoardes have the same issue. They require depth and menace to be more than massed cannon fodder.
I don't want the Realms to turn into WoD by any means, but I think evil as an institution or setting element needs to be intimidating on an institutional and setting level. I think that the rich history of the Realms reflects this, but I think it's more of a challenge for the novelists. I suppose it makes thier job even more challenging when there is a universal expectation that the good guys invariably carry the day. When all or most of the many fine novels and RSEs in particular represent a win for the good guys the cumilative effect is to make evil seem weak by comparison. I guess that is one of the challenges with a setting as rich and storied as the Realms. |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 14:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
regarding this topic.
Are there any good novels which depict an "Evil doer" winning rarther than the "Heroes" coming through in the end?
Some of the stories in the various Realms anthologies are like this, and several others have morally ambigious endings (such as Lisa Smedman's story in Realms of the Elves).
quote:
Originally posted by bitter thorn
On the other hand it's hard to take the bad guys seriously when evry major bad guy organization seems all but incapable of gaining and/or consolidating any meaningful goals.
I would rephrase that to "every popular bad guy organization". Groups such as the Night Masks, the Rundeen, and the Hosttower of the Arcane are fairly major powers in their respective geographical locations, but they haven't suffered any setbacks in a while, if only because they haven't actually featured in any recent novels or sourcebooks.
There's also the fact we simply don't know what the goals of several evil organizations actually are, at least those they have for the long term. We still don't know what the the most important plans of the Empire of Shade, the Twisted Rune, the Shield Council, the Dark Moon monks, etc are, so how would we know how well those plans are succeeding? Sure the TR suffered a setback with the Halaster fiasco, but did it really upset their most important schemes all that much? I would say no. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 22 Feb 2007 14:44:25 |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 21:41:43
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| Hmmm Thanks nbn |
I'm Back! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 22:05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
Are there any good novels which depict an "Evil doer" winning rarther than the "Heroes" coming through in the end?
Heh. Well . . .
We'll see what you guys think of the ending of Depths.
As for other Realms books -- Kemp's Erevis Cale trilogy doesn't end with any kind of all consuming victory for the heroes. If they really are heroes anyway.
quote:
I'm toying with the idea of running a truly evil char in my next game
I DM an Evil Realms Campaign, and it's totally choice. The players have so much fun, and are so interested and fascinated by their characters, that they consider it one of the best RP experiences ever.
That said, use of evil characters requires a certain amount of maturity that not all players have. It's important, before you play an evil character, that you clear it with everyone at the table first.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 22:14:58
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Depths
Hmmm we shall have to see
as for the maturity and exp level of the Players in my group running a utter Evil game would not be an issue we all have a min on 10 years gaming exp and are all (please dis-regard anything I may have said on this site that contradicts) mature.
My mindset at the mo regarding game play has changed slowly from:
Ranger being caring and thoughtful.
dwarf being money mad
dwarf being violent ( Delzounblood)
and now to the most corrupt and dangerous char
Tiefling (80% sure) not sure on class yet still in planning stage!
I seem to be moving ever more to Chaotic and Evil!
Delz
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I'm Back! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 22:49:18
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| I want to play an evil character... I'd really like to try playing a NE character who was, for some reason, stuck adventuring with a good-aligned party. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 22:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
and now to the most corrupt and dangerous char
Tiefling (80% sure) not sure on class yet still in planning stage!
I seem to be moving ever more to Chaotic and Evil!
If I might humbly suggest . . .
Lesser aasimar ex-paladin/blackguard.
The unequivocal fallen angel, who easily bluffs people into thinking he's still a paladin. Wisdom and Charisma bonuses. Add rogue, ranger, or fighter, to suit your own preferences. With "lesser" (that is, planetouched (native) subtype -- see PGtF), you don't even have to worry about the ECL.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Are the "good" guys winning too much?
