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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 21:14:51
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I wanted to add:
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
She is stated to be politically astute in Realmslore. Unfortunately, I've seen no sign of it in action. That's probably since few novels have focused on political matters.
Have you read Silverfall: Stories of the Seven Sisters yet? Alustriel is shown in action as a ruler (that is managing her city, not leading an army) in her part of the book. I was wondering how you thought she came off, if you read that novel. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Oct 2008 21:16:50 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2008 : 22:14:56
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Well put, Icelander. That was an excellent treatise on the past (as we are in 4e) leadership of Faerun.
And, even though some may disagree with that trilogy (which I do vehemently), I do believe it would be included in canon, as it was approved and published as an official RSE.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 00:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Having political ability means to have a grasp of the world of politics.
No offense, but that's not a satisfactory definition, it's a tautology. Would you say that having political ability means, as you said after that, being "skilled at manipulating people and opinions?"
Sure, with the addition that it also means being good at spotting when others do that and understanding the mechanisms of the spread of news and rumours, the ulterior motives of people and how to work with people of differing opinions.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The fireballs might have been 7th level spells, but I don't think there's anyway of knowing that for a fact (that is, I don't recall the text saying Alustriel's fireballs were more a more powerful version of the typical spell). That said, I completely agree that Alustriel didn't exactly come off as the master mage she's supposed to be, especially considering that she's had at least 600 years to hone her skills (in all aspects of life, for that matter).
It's not stated that it's higher level Fireballs, but then again, the Chariot spell is clearly high-level and the effects of the Fireballs is relatively dramatic.
But she came across as unprepared, overly emotional and unfamiliar with warfare. That's not all that unrealistic, in that it's possible to live for centuries without personally leading troops to war all that often and the emotional turmoil that's part of being Chosen means that their emotions often get the better of them, but it certainly means that I'd rather choose a grizzled old battlemaster of the Purple Dragons as my general. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 00:57:56
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| Jarlaxle or any Drow House Master like Zaknafein. These guys were relentless and brutal, having had to prove themselves constantly until they rose to the ranks of leading House armies against each other. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 01:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I wanted to add:
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
She is stated to be politically astute in Realmslore. Unfortunately, I've seen no sign of it in action. That's probably since few novels have focused on political matters.
Have you read Silverfall: Stories of the Seven Sisters yet? Alustriel is shown in action as a ruler (that is managing her city, not leading an army) in her part of the book. I was wondering how you thought she came off, if you read that novel.
I have read Starfall, but I remember little of it (I suspect it's a self-defence mechanism on the part of my brain, to try to forget bad novels I read). To make sure I can answer accurately, I went back and reread the Alustriel part of the book.
First of all, we glimpse her in the process of solving a mystery. Why is she doing it at all? Unless she deliberately keeps her city lawless and chaotic, there must be other people who have the job of solving crimes. Delegation, it's necessary for every ruler, even those who think they are more capable than anyone under their command.
There is no doubt that the Spellguard could easily have done the job of questioning the suspects and despite the personal power Alustriel showed in the fight with the Vauntagar, a group of disciplined combat mages should have been able to handle it just as well.
After all, if the Thayvians hadn't been so arrogant and stupid, they would have defeated her. Stopping to gloat every few seconds isn't conductive to a victory in a spell duel, however, so it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that no Thayvian (as they appear in TSR/WotC novels, at least) will ever win a contest of wits or spellcraft against anyone but the rawest apprentice.
Alustriel also appears very reactive in her actions, not taking the initiative until at the very end. Her task, as the ruler, should be to oversee the large-scale decisions and long-time political strategy, not get caught up in the day-to-day security of the city.
As for her performance in the investigation, I couldn't help feeling that she deliberately and without any compelling reason kept people off-guard in the interviews with her. She was needlessly antagonistic and then suddenly tender for little reason. There was no need for mind-games, not when there was a truth field in effect and simple questions would have sufficed. And the death threats were utterly unecessary and served mostly to make me lose respect for the character and wonder at her sanity.
Taern Hornblade appeared to be much more professional and competent when it came to the investigation. He did what needed to be done, without threats or bluster. Happily, he is now the ruler of Silverymoon and probably a very good one.
I also question the answers she gave Draevin Flarwood. A strong army and a capable law enforcement agency aren't merely the tools of war. The first is necessary in any land which can come under attack and the second is necesary in any land where people live, given that there will always be some people who seek to harm other people. Defeding the kingdom and its people aren't unnecessary expenses, they are the core of what a ruler is supposed to do.
By refusing to establish a professional force that handle these tasks, she's implicitly deciding that it's good enough to do them on an ad hoc basis. Even when that clearly means that more people die in the inevitable wars and that the city suffers while the ruler is busy doing work that should be done by a police force.
Silverymoon is in the North, where civilisation after civilisation has been destroyed by massing orcs, flights of dragons or other monsters. It's irresponsible in the extreme to expect that nonhuman predators will respect the will of Alustriel to rule a peaceful kingdom with no desire for war.
Just a short while after this story is written, we see the results of her policies. People in hamlets and villages in the North suffer in the war against the orcs and Silverymoon is too weak to send help. People die so that Silverymoon might preserve an appearance of peacefulness.
I have to admit, her attitude sickens me. I can't stand pacifism when it results in innocents getting killed and I especially can't stand it when it's not even a real philosophical position, but instead some kind of mealy-mouthed opposition to organising the forces that must inevitably deal in violence. We see that Alustriel does indeed stoop to violence when she judges it necessary, even stoops to the very mind-reaming which she mentally berated Khelben with, but she does not approve of fielding a professional military in place of the painfully few Knights of Silver she has?
Given the choice between the predictable and relatively benevolent tyranny of Vangerdahast or Khelben and the appalling combination of laissez-faire and chaotic, sudden heavy-handed action that Alustriel appears to stand for, I'd choose Khelben or Vangey every time. With them, at least you know that there is a plan and that it probably is a good one.
In Alustriel's case, all the good intentions in the world don't matter, since her lack of organisation and the ability to delegate means that she'll be unable to deal with all the necessary crises of government.
On the basis of this story and her performance in the RAS novels, I can't say that she appears to be a very good ruler. But she might well have good political instincts, though, and long experience in that field. After all, political ability and sound policies aren't related at all.  |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 10:04:46
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| Icelander, I will not debate the drow armies of the past, winners or loosers in here, as this is a-topical. As I said above. Much of what you argued about holds true, others does not, IMHO. The thread was not about that though, it was asking about living military commanders and I put two up for that. And I know for certain that the Baenre Weapon Master was amongst the troops who chased the enemy out of Menzoberranzan. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 16:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Sure, with the addition that it also means being good at spotting when others do that and understanding the mechanisms of the spread of news and rumours, the ulterior motives of people and how to work with people of differing opinions.
Thanks, I appreciate this more complete definition.
quote:
It's not stated that it's higher level Fireballs, but then again, the Chariot spell is clearly high-level and the effects of the Fireballs is relatively dramatic.
But she came across as unprepared, overly emotional and unfamiliar with warfare. That's not all that unrealistic, in that it's possible to live for centuries without personally leading troops to war all that often and the emotional turmoil that's part of being Chosen means that their emotions often get the better of them, but it certainly means that I'd rather choose a grizzled old battlemaster of the Purple Dragons as my general.
Same here, definitely. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 16:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
[I have read Starfall, but I remember little of it (I suspect it's a self-defence mechanism on the part of my brain, to try to forget bad novels I read). To make sure I can answer accurately, I went back and reread the Alustriel part of the book.
Wow. I have to say, that's quite the dedication to thoroughly answering my question. I do appreciate it.
quote:
On the basis of this story and her performance in the RAS novels, I can't say that she appears to be a very good ruler. But she might well have good political instincts, though, and long experience in that field. After all, political ability and sound policies aren't related at all.
Thanks for sharing your very detailed thoughts on the matter. Again, I appreciate it, and as usual I enjoyed reading your commentary. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2008 : 21:13:02
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I wonder if Randal Morn would make the list for his insurgent campaign against the Zhents in Dagger Dale?
Are the any famous Hobgoblin Commanders? |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
Edited by - bitter thorn on 18 Oct 2008 21:14:18 |
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Darius Talynth
Acolyte
Canada
21 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 00:16:38
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While I admit to not reading as many of the FR novels as some others here, as mentioned earlier in another post (sorry can't remember who), I can't recall too many exmaples of large scale warfare and examples of great military strategy. The only two that come to my immediate mind are:
The tuigan Khan of the Horde
and more recently Obould.
Even though the Khan was stopped in the end, what he was able to accomplish was impressive.
Obould, as in the recent RAS trilogy, demonstrated fantastic leadership and strategy especially for an orc. That he was able to sustain his gains and force the silver marches to sue for peace (or accept his offer) was remarkable.
As for the military genius of the Chosen. I can't think of any real examples to draw on. I'm sure they would be capable, but of the lords of Waterdeep for example, Piergeron was the open lord and responsible for the defence of the city. Khelben would have played a different role. Doesn't mean that he would be a poor military leader but it is likely something that he and many other wizards would not study and practice. They focus on their magic. Quite likely a mage such as Khelben, and well the Simbul for certain, could lay waste to an entire army on their own, unles said army had an equivalent counter to the mage or his magic.
So I would suggest that some of the Chosen might be capable military leaders/commanders but it doesn't seem to really fit with their history or basic MO as I have seen it. So I would not count them as great military commanders of faerun.
As an aside, for a good series may I suggest people read Steven Erikson's Malazan series for examples of warfare with magic on both sides. It also has good scenarios of how gods meddle actively in the world and characters of different races interacting. It took me a little while to get into but I am now a fan of the series. Not FR but hey, a good read is a good read. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 11:08:45
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Yamun Khahan was certainly an incredible military leader, but he's disqualified from inclusion in this study, as he's not a living military commander in the 1370s.
And while Obould-who-is-Gruumsh was certainly remarkable for an orc, and clearly had political sophistication far above what can be expected of that brutish race, he is still, in my opinion, not on par with other commanders mentioned here. For one thing, King Obould has the advantage of numbers. He commands a populous and warlike species and his tens of thousands face humans and dwarves in their hundreds. It is not unexpected that Obould is able to make some gains with such a huge advantage.
Of course, the numbers are partially due to his political genius and success at selecting and mollifying key subordinate leaders. But that makes him a successful politician, not a legendary military leader. I wouldn't have any scruples about including Obould on a list of the most astute politians of the Realms, but militarily he's suffered about as many defeats as he's won victories. |
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The best living military commanders
