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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2003 : 19:46:32
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If 3e says anything regarding this, I don't recall.
I seem to remember 1e saying something about only being able to detect evil on a PC/NPC if he or she was high level and was intent on doing evil at the time of the detection (I think the example 1e gave was a high-level assassin actually going about his work). Does anybody else remember this from 1e?
I asked this same question on 3rdedition.org's bulletin board, so if you think you've seen it before, you may have if you have an account there.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2003 : 22:23:01
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I remember in 1st edition the DMG said that Detect evil would only be able to detect the degree of evil. I know a paladin had to concentrate to detect evil and facing the proper direction. BUt with first edition, the rules were more open to interpretation, and I also remember some DRAGON articles that argue this. I don't remember what they were, but the DMG seems to indicate that Detect Evil can detect intent.
But it also says that Detect eveil can detect evil from places...
Oh no wonder I was so confused as a child!!!! COnfound it all!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2003 : 23:44:59
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mournblade94:
quote:
I remember in 1st edition the DMG said that Detect evil would only be able to detect the degree of evil. I know a paladin had to concentrate to detect evil and facing the proper direction. BUt with first edition, the rules were more open to interpretation, and I also remember some DRAGON articles that argue this. I don't remember what they were, but the DMG seems to indicate that Detect Evil can detect intent.
But it also says that Detect eveil can detect evil from places...
Oh no wonder I was so confused as a child!!!! COnfound it all!
On the 3rdedition.org board, many commented that detecting evil ought to only work on things that are inherently evil, e.g. a shrine dedicated to an evil god, an evil magic item, an evil Outsider, perhaps a high-level evil cleric.
The example someone (perhaps me) used was this: if the NE stable is doing nothing but currying your horse, would he register on a detect evil? I would say no. What if you see the CN innkeeper sneaking into your buddy's room, and his plan is to slit your buddy's throat? That's a toughie. What if it's the NE stableboy sneaking in to slit your buddy's throat? That's a toughie, too, IMO. Does the stableboy's evil plan make him more evil because his alignment is evil?
How about a good character being blackmailed or otherwise coerced into performing an evil act? |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 08:39:51
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In the game I run Alignment is a very tangible thing. No matter what, Detect (Alignment) spells work regardless of what the other person is doing.
If an evil person is helping a child, I would not say this makes him good (I interpret as evil must do many good things to redeem).
If a Good person however was to murder an innocent, this would make him evil (yes one act), I would rule that the character needs to change his alignment to other than good.
If an evil character is playing tiddly winks with the village idiot, I allow Detect evil to still alert the caster to his evilness.
Likewise if the Chaotic Good thief is trying to trick a guard, I still have him as showing up as good. Alignment will register for a spell unless the DM (ME in this case) rules you have to change your alignment.
That is just my interpretation.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 17:19:00
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| So what's your opinion about the CN innkeeper vs. the NE stable boy vs. the CG barmaid, whose mother will be killed by bandits if she doesn't kill your buddy, all sneaking in to slit your buddy's throat? If you're the GM, would they all register equally evil at that moment? |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 17:49:33
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The only one that would register as evil is the NE. The chaotic good Person would not exist as chaotic good anymore because I would of changed her alignment. Good characters just won't murder INNOCENTS, they will try to find another way. ( i have heard the dying mother story, and if a character is good, they will find another way or switch alignment). Chaotic Neutral would not necessarily show up as evil. Like I said the way I have set up alignments, is very pidgeon holed. Detection spells are just not smart enough to get it until AFTER the fact. What if a good character thinks an unpure thought such as Killing his commander. Is a detect evil going to go off? Its NOT a Detect Thoughts spell, it can only work by detecting the alignment the character TRULY is.
Think of Detect LAW and Detect CHaos. Now it is very easy for people to distinguish between GOOD and EVIL. But I have found many people have trouble distingushing between LAW and CHAOS. The line blurs a little here, as there is no REAL moral consequence all of the time.
If a Lawful Good Paladin with a sense of humour plays a harmless practical joke is he suddenly chaotic?
Or if the CHaotic good follows an order from a harsh commander is he suddenly lawful. If you had the detection spells of any of the four components of alignment only detecting INTENT, they would be useless because you would never know what alignment a body is.
What if this chaotic good barmaid killed a person and was very remorseful, Donated a bunch to the god of laws, and then was being questioned by the watch with a Detect Evil spell. WOuld her remorse, and donations, shield her evil? Thus clearing her name?
There is no right or wrong answer to this, and I used to play Detect evil as emanations, not actual alignment. I found when I used the emanation 1st ed system, it cheapened the Detect Evil, so I just made it detect ACTUAL alignment. IN my game, if the good character is going to kill your buddy, you are not going to know through Detect Evil. You better get Detect Thoughts to figure it out (Or ESP whatever edition you are using). Once that good character KILLS your buddy, they will show up as evil (Unless your buddy was threatening her, or evil himself).
See that is the thing, I have it set up that killing an EVIL creature is in itself a good act, because you are reducing the power of evil. IT is an UNLAWFUL act to do this which prevents MANY good characters from just openly slaughtering evil people. If the GOOD character kills someone he SUSPECTS of being evil and is not evil, well that good character may be on the path to an alignment shift.
Now I have considered the world has no definite good or evils. But I do not want to run a world like our world, I want to run a world where the forces of good are tangible and the forces of evil are tangible. The enemy is not hidden behind ideals. Manshoon does not think he is good and right, he wants POWER. Fzoul does not think Bane should be in power for the good of the world, he thinks bane should be in power because it will Give HIM more power.
I have to say, alignment debates are the most common debates in gaming, and often the most interesting. But I will leave it here before I sicken everyone with anecdotes.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 00:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
The example someone (perhaps me) used was this: if the NE stable is doing nothing but currying your horse, would he register on a detect evil? I would say no. What if you see the CN innkeeper sneaking into your buddy's room, and his plan is to slit your buddy's throat? That's a toughie. What if it's the NE stableboy sneaking in to slit your buddy's throat? That's a toughie, too, IMO. Does the stableboy's evil plan make him more evil because his alignment is evil?
How about a good character being blackmailed or otherwise coerced into performing an evil act?
I regard the "Detect Evil" ability as more like the claimed ability of a psychic or faith healer in "normal" life who claim to be able to see "badness" or "evil" in someone as a colour. I've seen such people interviewed on television and they claim that something evil has a red aura which is clearly visible when you are attuned to it. A faith-healer can "see" a sick part of the patient's body by tuning into and looking for the aura. I personally regard casting "Detect Evil" as the tuning-in process.
Hence, to answer you questions:
The NE stable boy would be detected - he is evil - the fact he isn't currently doing anything evil is irrelevant.
No, the Innkeeper wouldn't be detected - he isn't evil, his plan is.
The stable boy's alignment means that he is (or should be!) more likely to carry out an evil act because he is evil. If the Innkeeper is more likely to carry out an evil act then, by definition, he isn't neutral.
Being coerced or blackmailed into committing an evil act does not make an evil person so detect evil would not detect the good character. I agree with Mournblade's post where he says a good character will find another way! I have been known to enjoy putting good aligned PC's into this situation and watching them squirm 
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 06:51:12
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mournblade:
Sounds like you are making Det. Evil/Good/Law/Chaos the same as Det. Alignment.
I don't think it's "good" to slay evil aligned NPCs if they're not guilty of something evil.
Alignment debates are among the best, as long as everyone is civil, and we are all pretty darned civil. I don't agree with all your interpretations, but if you were my GM, I wouldn't complain.
kahonen:
That is a very good hook for good aligned characters. It is a pretty good test of a player's RP skills. The easy way out is of course to do the blackmaler's evil bidding. Not very good role playing for a good PC. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 16:29:58
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
mournblade:
Sounds like you are making Det. Evil/Good/Law/Chaos the same as Det. Alignment.
I don't think it's "good" to slay evil aligned NPCs if they're not guilty of something evil.
Alignment debates are among the best, as long as everyone is civil, and we are all pretty darned civil. I don't agree with all your interpretations, but if you were my GM, I wouldn't complain.
kahonen:
That is a very good hook for good aligned characters. It is a pretty good test of a player's RP skills. The easy way out is of course to do the blackmaler's evil bidding. Not very good role playing for a good PC.
This is something that I know about. Detect evil IS listed in the 3rd ed book. It dose tell you how it works etc. Its can detect evil people ( such as their alignment) and evil things like shrines etc. If a person is thinking and "evil" thought. Then that also shows up as well.... But only as a bigger aura one would think. However you have to concentrate on that person etc, which not many paladins will do if they do not have reason to do so. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
Edited by - Cult_Leader on 05 May 2003 20:53:30 |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 20:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Leader
quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
mournblade:
Sounds like you are making Det. Evil/Good/Law/Chaos the same as Det. Alignment.
I don't think it's "good" to slay evil aligned NPCs if they're not guilty of something evil.
Alignment debates are among the best, as long as everyone is civil, and we are all pretty darned civil. I don't agree with all your interpretations, but if you were my GM, I wouldn't complain.
kahonen:
That is a very good hook for good aligned characters. It is a pretty good test of a player's RP skills. The easy way out is of course to do the blackmaler's evil bidding. Not very good role playing for a good PC.
This is something that I know about. Detect evil IS listed in the 3rd ed book. It dose tell you how it works etc. Its can detect evil people ( such as their alignment) and evil things like shrines etc. If a person is thinking and "evil" thought. They that also shows up as well. Hoever you have to concentrate on that person etc, whic not many paladins will do if they do not have reason to do so.
Yes im going to quite my own quite just to let you all know that I actually looked this up when I got home. Dectect evil is just like the spell detect evil. Which gives off auras of evil. So if the person alignment have evil in it, they are going to have an aura of evil even if they are doing an evil act or not. They are evil after all. Just read what detect evil says and you will be all good to go.
As for 1e I don't remeber and I don't have my books from 1st ed anymore. Someone actually stole them ... I owned the orange back books to  |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
Edited by - Cult_Leader on 05 May 2003 20:51:27 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2003 : 03:46:35
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| Cult Leader, will you please stop making all these consecutive posts when you can consolidate them into one post? It's very annoying, both because it's visually jarring and because you're artificially inflating your own post count. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2003 : 14:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Cult Leader, will you please stop making all these consecutive posts when you can consolidate them into one post? It's very annoying, both because it's visually jarring and because you're artificially inflating your own post count.
If you actually took the time to take note of this, you would see that all most all of my posts are answering back to, or speaking to a post from one person at a time. One post at a time. How is that artifically raising my post count? I could care less about a post count. And second I would rather answer to one post at a time because it allows me to focus on ONE subject and thing at a time. Instead of ranting on about two things all wrapped up into one post which trust me wouldnt be a pretty sight due to me being the classic ranter... I get things jummbled up the more I go on. However if you want to say mean things then please read the sign that states: If your going to be mean ... your lips can go here *you already know where*.
And as far as that goes if your actually worried about a post count then your just being silly... |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
Edited by - Cult_Leader on 06 May 2003 15:10:47 |
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Detecting evil/good/law/chaos on PCs/NPCs
