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Wizbane
Acolyte
36 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 12:36:01
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So, for those that already finished the game, what do you think of the plot?
I'm no expert of Mere lore or Illefarn lore, but I think the authors did a good job in doing a FR adventure, not just a "simple" adventure.
The plot seems to mesh well with existing FR material as far as I know.
Old BG story became canon after a while. Will the NWN2 story (and many of the new elements introduced..the Guardian...the githyanki sword seekers..etc.) follow the same steps?
(heavy spoilers tag added in case someone goes into details in his comments)
Thanks,
Wizbane
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 13:01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
Old BG story became canon after a while.
That's not entirely correct.
Because of their multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered completely 'official' in the FR world. Certainly, elements and parts of the game's story that borrow from already established Realmslore are canon, but the only actual events of the Bhaalspawn saga that are noted as being completely canon are those depicted in the novels.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wizbane
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 14:08:02
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Hi, thanks for the puntualization. Of course not all the details became canon for BG2, nor I expect all the details of NWN2 to become such. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the reference to the "plot"...
Without BG (games and novels) there wouldn't have been any bhaalspawns around, right? The concept of bhaalspawns became a feature of the Forgotten Realms and they were first introduced in the CRPGs, ending up to being even quoted in some FR supplements thanks to the success of the game.
I think a similar outcome is to be expected for certain concepts introduced by NWN2, if not for the outcome of the story/plot (btw, in NWN2 the story is actually "self-contained" in a certain way, so regardless of the outcome of the game the story too could be canon material as much as any other FR adventure I think).
By concepts I mean facts like the creation and the later corruption of the Illefarn Guardian, the existence of Githyanki sword-seekers, the assumption that certain characters exist or have been part of Realmslore (like Ammon Jerro, the gem dragon that confronted the King of Shadows, the Ironfist dwarven clan, etc.). At least when talking about the Mere and its surroundings what happened in NWN2 is bound to become a reference for many and probably for many FR designers too, if dealing with that region.
If among FR CRPGs one is to be looked at as "canon", I think NWN2 is the best aim so far, and I've played many.
Wizbane |
Edited by - Wizbane on 04 Jan 2007 14:13:06 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 14:20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
Without BG (games and novels) there wouldn't have been any bhaalspawns around, right? The concept of bhaalspawns became a feature of the Forgotten Realms and they were first introduced in the CRPGs, ending up to being even quoted in some FR supplements thanks to the success of the game.
The characters from the novels were stat’d up in DRAGON #262 for 2e and there is the Bhaalspawn template for 3e in DRAGON #288. There is also the sourcebook Ed wrote that complements the novels -- Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II. And the bits in PoF and LEoF.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 14:44:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
Old BG story became canon after a while.
Only a bastardized and minimal version of the games ever became canon(they totally destroyed both Bodhi and Irenicus in the BG2 novel ) and if I had to choose between NWN2 suffering the same fate or nothing about it being canon, I would choose the latter. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 17:26:43
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To start of: only the content of published books/novels is to be considered canon (right? right!) But that is not suppose to be open for discussion here, we had that a few times already, me thinks! 
Anyhow, as far as I know they planned to publish a book for NWN1 to introduce the story line to canon but that novel never saw the light of day IIRC. So, with that in mind I doubt that they will do any novels on NWN2 to make the game (or parts of it) canon, either. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 18:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
To start of: only the content of published books/novels is to be considered canon (right? right!) But that is not suppose to be open for discussion here, we had that a few times already, me thinks!
And the Dragon/Dungeon articles, of course. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 18:09:06
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From what I could tell, the Neverwinter Nights book was actually a collection of short stories that gave hints about various items and their locations in the game, so it may not even have touched on a lot of the plot, just some of the items and the general location of Neverwinter, but given how many "lore gaffs" kind of snuck into Neverwinter Nights, the novel would have had to significantly differ from the games plot to make it make sense.
On the other hand, yes, if the novel were to be written, it would make everything in the novel official, but there is nothing that keeps individual designers that might decide they like certain peices of the plot from using them in adventures or sourcebooks, but then only what they mention would be "official" not anything related to that particular plot point other than what is mentioned.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36886 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 19:13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
To start of: only the content of published books/novels is to be considered canon (right? right!) But that is not suppose to be open for discussion here, we had that a few times already, me thinks!
And the Dragon/Dungeon articles, of course. :)
And the web material, and the DC/TSR comics.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 22:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
So, for those that already finished the game, what do you think of the plot?
I'm no expert of Mere lore or Illefarn lore, but I think the authors did a good job in doing a FR adventure, not just a "simple" adventure.
The plot seems to mesh well with existing FR material as far as I know.
Old BG story became canon after a while. Will the NWN2 story (and many of the new elements introduced..the Guardian...the githyanki sword seekers..etc.) follow the same steps?
(heavy spoilers tag added in case someone goes into details in his comments)
Thanks,
Wizbane
I posted about this couple of weeks ago and George pointed out there is an inconcistency, Illefarn wasnt around when Karse tried to steal Mystra's divinity.
The problem other with the NWN2 plot is it makes no mention of Uthtower existing where the Mere of Dead men is now all the ruins are attributed to Illefarn |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wizbane
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 12:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
So, for those that already finished the game, what do you think of the plot?
I'm no expert of Mere lore or Illefarn lore, but I think the authors did a good job in doing a FR adventure, not just a "simple" adventure.
The plot seems to mesh well with existing FR material as far as I know.
Old BG story became canon after a while. Will the NWN2 story (and many of the new elements introduced..the Guardian...the githyanki sword seekers..etc.) follow the same steps?
(heavy spoilers tag added in case someone goes into details in his comments)
Thanks,
Wizbane
I posted about this couple of weeks ago and George pointed out there is an inconcistency, Illefarn wasnt around when Karse tried to steal Mystra's divinity.
The problem other with the NWN2 plot is it makes no mention of Uthtower existing where the Mere of Dead men is now all the ruins are attributed to Illefarn.
Maybe there could be some workarounds for these. The Guardian had to be present in the year the Weave was shut off by Karsus'spell, not the Illefarn Empire. About Uthtower, it can be just an overlapping piece of lore the authors of NWN2 didn't look at, I don't know if it's plausible tough since the details about how the Uthtower influences the region escape me.
In any case the probability to see some NWN2 stuff canonized are not slim, maybe with some little adjustments. After all everything that went into the game had to be examined (and approved) by WotC with a far greater degree of attention than, say, some content ending up in some novels or in some Dragon articles.
Wizbane
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 16:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
had to be examined (and approved) by WotC with a far greater degree of attention than, say, some content ending up in some novels or in some Dragon articles.
Wizbane
WOTC approves and pays attention to every article that goes into Dragon/Dungeon. The two companies have meetings every week/month about the articles. WOTC set that in their deal when they let Paizo print the two magazines. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Zimme
Learned Scribe
Denmark
209 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 20:57:34
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| Im kinda curious about the nwn2 book, wonder who they will get to write it? Sure hope that they dont use the author who wrote the first BG book.(i read it and decided not to buy the shadows of Amn book). |
Sometimes I feel like Beshaba is sitting on my back, devoting her entire attention to me!
Rannek.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:12:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zimme
Im kinda curious about the nwn2 book, wonder who they will get to write it? Sure hope that they dont use the author who wrote the first BG book.(i read it and decided not to buy the shadows of Amn book).
There's going to be a NWN2 book? I haven't heard this. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 01:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Zimme
Im kinda curious about the nwn2 book, wonder who they will get to write it? Sure hope that they dont use the author who wrote the first BG book.(i read it and decided not to buy the shadows of Amn book).
There's going to be a NWN2 book? I haven't heard this.
Neither have most of us. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Zimme
Learned Scribe
Denmark
209 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 02:34:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hehe... I thought it was just a rumor concocted over at EN World.
It is.... my fault for taking things for granted! *begs forgiveness for a unforgivable mistake* |
Sometimes I feel like Beshaba is sitting on my back, devoting her entire attention to me!
Rannek.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 04:02:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Zimme
Im kinda curious about the nwn2 book, wonder who they will get to write it? Sure hope that they dont use the author who wrote the first BG book.(i read it and decided not to buy the shadows of Amn book).
There's going to be a NWN2 book? I haven't heard this.
Neither have most of us. :)
Okay, thanks. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 13:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
As far as I know they planned to publish a book for NWN1 to introduce the story line to canon but that novel never saw the light of day IIRC.
What I said as not entirely correct. As I just learned from Rino over at some other thread ( Realms of the Elves - which story belongs where?), parts of NWN1 have been published!
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
"The Staff of Valmaxian" doesn't follow up any novels, but it was once going to be a part of the cancelled Neverwinter Nights Anthology, and the story is about an item that can be found in the Neverwinter Nights CRPG.
Whereever that may lead our thoughts........... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 06 Jan 2007 13:01:33 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 23:32:25
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| Yes, and on this website, http://www.o-love.net/realms/index.html, you can read the NWN anthology story written by Clayton Emery. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lysan Lurraxol
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 13:42:29
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I don't think NWN2'll ever become canon, both Neverwinter games exist in their own parallel dimension, I mean, they both are based around a set of events (the Luskan War, the plague) that didn't happen in the game/novel world.
NWN2 was wonderful, much better than NWN, but it relies too much on the non-canon events of NWN1 for it to be considered canon. |
http://lysan.livejournal.com
"Come join me in the dark..." |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 13:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, and on this website, http://www.o-love.net/realms/index.html, you can read the NWN anthology story written by Clayton Emery.
Any idea were exactly, cause your link only leads to the main page of the site! Thx.
Edit note:
Found it meself already! The story is: Bold as Brass. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 09 Jan 2007 14:23:57 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 14:35:20
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I just downloaded the story from the above link and the author's note is pretty interesting IMO. so I decided to quote it for you here:
quote:
Clayton Emery wrote: :
"This story was originally intended for a book called NEVERWINTER NIGHTS. A Forgotten Realms book, it had a unique hook. Seven stories would center around mystic artifacts. Each artifact would be hidden in the NEVERWINTER NIGHTS computer game. By reading the book, the player would get clues as to the whereabouts of nifty Easter Eggs in the game.
Cool idea. But the computer company just made the artifacts available for sale in taverns. So "with no reason for the book to exist" (What about the great stories?) it was killed.
Their loss. I got the rights back, so here's the story, never seen before.
Enjoy."
I have to say - I agree! It really would have been a cool thing, indeed! However, from Clayton's discription of the book it seems pretty clear that
1. it would not have included much plot from the game &
2. NWN1 plot was never intended to become canon as it seems.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
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Durak
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 16:02:22
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Illefarn was last heard of in -9000 ( Illefarn and Keltormir are the sole remaining civilizations to emerge intact from the Crown Wars. )
Nothing else can i find about them after this date. Apart from some human city being named after them (illusk?)
The Spell was cast in -339 by Karsus.
Just found this
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20010131b
That it was still around till 1100DR. But it went quietly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Its a good theory, but i doubt it will become anything more than that. Since the shadow weave was only known about after the return of the Netherise city.
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Edited by - Durak on 10 Jan 2007 16:18:12 |
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NWN2 plot and FR canon (heavy spoiler)
