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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 04:38:46
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Are there any post Time of Troubles existing portals to Sigil left in Faerun? (i.e. that are still canon in 3.0/3.5?)
I seem to recall that there are, but I don't know where to start my search... (the 'links' sections of the new cosmology detailed in the PGtoF does not seem to show any... Volo's guides perhaps?)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 04:48:29
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Faiths & Pantheons, in the adventure locals near the back of the book, mentions one.
I'd say the rest still exist since WOTC has said that Sigil is still a part of the new cosmology and it's the same Sigil of the Wheel/Ring. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 04:50:00
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I don't recall any specific mention of a portal from Faerun to the City of Doors being detailed in the 3e FR canon. We do have a portal from Sigil to Toril in 3e, from the "Abbey of the Sword" reference in F&P on pg. 161 P3-Magic Portal -- one-way from Sigil to Toril. Also, considering that the Sigil of the Great Wheel in 3e is the same Sigil in the FR's Great Tree cosmology... I would think any of the 2e portals that were in existence and leading from either Toril or Sigil to Sigil or Toril have the possibility of still being active in 3e provided nothing has resulted in their closure.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 07 Dec 2006 04:51:24 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 04:51:32
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| Strangely, I knew Sage would echo me or I'd echo him. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 05:34:18
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I don't recall anything from 3E ever retconning portals to Sigil out of the Realms to begin with.
The added detailes Sage and Kuje gave us simply point to where we can find them now. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 19:08:08
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| Hey Kuje and Sage, who's the third echo? Rule of three's and all that. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 16:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Gray's another planar fan. Let's say it's him! 
That's who I was going to suggest. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 23:35:39
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Okay, that is freaky. We're channelling each other too much, I think.
And to keep this related to the discussion... I was wondering, have any of my fellow scribes ever made use of the Abbey of the Sword in an FR adventure? I'm thinking about the next stage of my campaign after the Waterdeep-to-Murann run I mentioned several weeks ago. And since my fortnightly PS game has finished up for the year, I've presently got a planar itch that only Sigil can scratch.
So, I'm looking for ideas mostly, or experiences with using the Abbey of the Sword in a FR campaign.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 00:00:51
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I didn't use the Abbey no, but I placed a tavern, which is like the World Serpent Inn in Cormyr, in Waterdeep. The Deep/planar tavern follows the laws of Waterdeep, when the owner wants to. I.E. no slavery, etc.
However, at the same time the tavern has it's own laws unto itself and that law is the laws of the family of owners, who are all barbarians. Especially since the tavern is "in" Waterdeep but at the same time it is "outside" of the rest of the planes. So it basically phrases in and out of the planes and Waterdeep.
The tavern itself has portals to Sigil, the Underdark, the planes, other worlds, etc. Since the tavern caters to many different races, the tavern owners major law is: Do not bother the patrons, or I, or my family, will make you regret it.
As for the magic that protects the tavern, I never detailed it but the family has enough magic to back up their rule. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 00:05:44
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If it was my campaign, I would have kept the two cosmologies separate and link them through the Plane of Shadow (not sure if it's how it works in terms of canon now, but the diagram in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes seems to hint at that...)
However, my DM has decided to have ONE cosmology, and have the FR planes be 'parts of existing Great Wheel planes', and to justify it because 'clueless primes from Faerun have it all wrong in the first place.' That works for me, because frankly, otherwise, the fixes required to the campaign start making the whole separate cosmology thing look really, really ridiculous. In fact, I'm really glad he went that route, 'cause that got me thinking on how we could fix that whole "Realms are separate" debacle! 
I, so far, have liked having the FR cosmology separate, but now, as a player, I keep wondering "Why?Why?Why?Why?Why?Why?Why?" In a system that can already accomodate ALTERNATE PRIMES, why the hell did they decide to separate the cosmologies? Maybe they're not separate, and maybe Ao is to Faerun as what the Lady of Blades is to Sigil (i.e. a huge overdeity controlling how one can access a plane and if or if not deities can move freely...)
SIGIL
overgod: Lady of Blades or Pain, whichever...
cosmology: Great Wheel
plane: Outlands, on top of the spire...
access: only through an existing portal (no spells, not even natural flying for beings with wings...)
deity travel: no deity travel allowed (deities can't get in, if they somehow do, they get destroyed by overgod Lady of Pain and all their followers everywhere are also instantly destroyed)
FAERUN
overgod: Ao
cosmology: Great Tree
plane: many of them
access: only through Shadow Plane OR portal from Sigil OR Spelljamming OR through express permission from Ao
deity travel: no deity travel allowed, except through Ao's permission
Now, it would be easy to imagine Faerun as being part of the Great Wheel, but with the rest shown above staying the same... One just have to imagine one thing: there is no separate cosmologies.
Seriously: imagine there is only one cosmology... the Great Wheel, ungoverned by anyone. The overgods that reside within it are in essence the very fabric of the 'separate cosmologies' we've assumed, their presence a tangible barriers between planes, such as the Lady of Pain in Sigil (i.e. she establishes rules for gods in essence... she controls a piece of the multiverse real estate that cannot be changed by gods...) Now, imagine Ao is the same, but his barrier encompasses multiple planes, and separates Faerunian deity domains from the rest of the plane they reside into (i.e. imagine the Great Wheel, but with a big incorporeal TREE in it, Ao being the tree! i.e. branches go to SOME planes, but not all of them... sometimes two or three branches go to the same plane, and faerunian assume these are two or three different planes, obviously, heedless that the 2-3 planes are say, all located within the Abyss... and they don't know better because they can't move between Ao's 'branches')
In short, overgods are the gods' babysitters and prevent the whole multiverse to fall apart! they're cool!  Maybe that's why they're all neutral!
This way one could have his cake and eat it too!!! oh yeah, I'm going to show that to my DM now! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 00:23:45
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Um,
Well FR's planes were part of the Wheel/Ring for 1e and 2e. :) Ao, only ruled over Realmspace. I.E the solor system that includes the planet of Toril.
Now in the new planes, he rules over the whole cosmology of the Realms, be it the planes, the prime, the planets and other celestial bodies, and the various pantheons. He even rules over the pantheons of the other continents on Faerun as well as the four Astrals that connect to Toril since each continent has their own seperate and different Astral.
However, he doesn't rule Sigil. No one rules Sigil except for the Lady. What the Lady is, no one knows. She might be a overgod like Ao, or she might not be but she is not Ao.
But 3/3.5e FR material has made it perfectly clear, the Wheel/Ring and FR's cosmology ARE seperate. However, there are planar connections between the two seperate and different cosmologies, which are the Shadow Plane, Sigil, the Infinite Staircase, and I believe that the World Ash/Tree would be another. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Dec 2006 00:26:18 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 01:03:38
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PDK, also, you may wish to review the Planar Changes section of the Candlekeep Code of Conduct (in my sig) which detail some of the differences that now exist between the Great Wheel and FR's Great Tree cosmology.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 09 Dec 2006 01:04:17 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 03:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
So, I'm looking for ideas mostly, or experiences with using the Abbey of the Sword in a FR campaign.
My PCs managed to get the grand tour of the gates when they proved themselves to the clergy of Tempus, but they never really took the bait and started to explore any of the portals in the region. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 04:03:26
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So, really? no more portals to Sigil than these?
As to the Infinite Staircase, does someone have a list of all canon destinations? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 04:06:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
So, really? no more portals to Sigil than these?
As to the Infinite Staircase, does someone have a list of all canon destinations?
I dunno if there's ever been a canon list of all the ledges in the Staircase. There's a few in Duty & Deity and Tales of the Infinite Staircase, but I think that's about all of them except for the ones that are briefly mentioned in the Player's Guide to Faerun.
Oh yeah, I always considered the planar staircases that were used in ToT's as connected to the Infinite Staircase even though that type of planar pathway didn't exist until late 2e.
Sigil portals, uh. Sage.... got a list? :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Dec 2006 04:20:35 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 04:10:55
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I do, but I don't have it here with me at the moment.
As I recall though, Dargoth composed a listing of ALL known canon references to portals and gateways -- which included paths to Sigil -- active in the Realms at one time or another.
Let me find it...
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Oh yeah, I always considered the planar staircases that were used in ToT's as connected to the Infinite Staircase even though that type of planar pathway didn't exist until late 2e.
That works for me.
And given the Infinite Staircase's continued presence in the 3e FR Great Tree also, it's something that works well enough now in the post 2e FR, reflecting the celestial staircases detailed in the ToT as either aspects or extentions of the Infinite Staircase itself.
EDIT: And as for known portals from the Infinite Staircase, the sources Kuje mention have the only known canon references -- which I recall, was compiled into a handy listing and uploaded to the old PW.com archives. I'm not sure whether the new PW.com archives have it listed though.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 09 Dec 2006 04:41:05 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 21:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And to keep this related to the discussion... I was wondering, have any of my fellow scribes ever made use of the Abbey of the Sword in an FR adventure? I'm thinking about the next stage of my campaign after the Waterdeep-to-Murann run I mentioned several weeks ago. And since my fortnightly PS game has finished up for the year, I've presently got a planar itch that only Sigil can scratch.
So, I'm looking for ideas mostly, or experiences with using the Abbey of the Sword in a FR campaign.
To get back to this:
Now that I refreshed my memory about the Abbey, I do believe that I might be making use of it in my merc email game. Can't say more cause my players read this site and I laugh at their moans of despair. HAHAHA. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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David E
Seeker
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 23:31:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Seriously: imagine there is only one cosmology... the Great Wheel, ungoverned by anyone. The overgods that reside within it are in essence the very fabric of the 'separate cosmologies' we've assumed, their presence a tangible barriers between planes, such as the Lady of Pain in Sigil (i.e. she establishes rules for gods in essence... she controls a piece of the multiverse real estate that cannot be changed by gods...) Now, imagine Ao is the same, but his barrier encompasses multiple planes, and separates Faerunian deity domains from the rest of the plane they reside into (i.e. imagine the Great Wheel, but with a big incorporeal TREE in it, Ao being the tree! i.e. branches go to SOME planes, but not all of them... sometimes two or three branches go to the same plane, and faerunian assume these are two or three different planes, obviously, heedless that the 2-3 planes are say, all located within the Abyss... and they don't know better because they can't move between Ao's 'branches')
In short, overgods are the gods' babysitters and prevent the whole multiverse to fall apart! they're cool! Maybe that's why they're all neutral!
This way one could have his cake and eat it too!!! oh yeah, I'm going to show that to my DM now!
This is pretty awesome idea, PDK! Consider it yoinked for my own uses, if you don't mind. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 23:36:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And to keep this related to the discussion... I was wondering, have any of my fellow scribes ever made use of the Abbey of the Sword in an FR adventure? I'm thinking about the next stage of my campaign after the Waterdeep-to-Murann run I mentioned several weeks ago. And since my fortnightly PS game has finished up for the year, I've presently got a planar itch that only Sigil can scratch.
So, I'm looking for ideas mostly, or experiences with using the Abbey of the Sword in a FR campaign.
To get back to this:
Now that I refreshed my memory about the Abbey, I do believe that I might be making use of it in my merc email game. Can't say more cause my players read this site and I laugh at their moans of despair. HAHAHA.
Perhaps you could send it to me privately? I'm still tinkering with ideas for this, so anything helps...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 03:22:57
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quote:
Originally posted by David E
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Seriously: imagine there is only one cosmology... <snip>
This is pretty awesome idea, PDK! Consider it yoinked for my own uses, if you don't mind.
Don't mind at all!   not at all!  |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 23:39:17
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| Erik and Eric: scroll up for my magnificent theory. Thank you, thank you! no problem at all! you're welcome! |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 17:33:25
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| That staircase in the World Serpent Inn, I guess it has links to nearly every plane, including Abyss and the Nine Hells, well, why aren't there some balors or pitlords that use the way without bothering the patrons to go into the prime material wreak havoc when they want and not only when they are summoned? |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 18:35:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
That staircase in the World Serpent Inn, I guess it has links to nearly every plane, including Abyss and the Nine Hells, well, why aren't there some balors or pitlords that use the way without bothering the patrons to go into the prime material wreak havoc when they want and not only when they are summoned?
It's prolly not the portals -- it's possible that those Lower Plane baddies have some sort of restriction that prevents them from coming to the Prime without being summoned. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 22:39:28
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One of the things I had played with, in my own mind, about such things, is that fiends are free to come and go on the prime as they will, but at the same time, if they come of their own volition, the celestials are free to do whatever they will to oppose them . . . Balor or Pit Fiend shows up unsummoned, fine, but then the first Solar that notices is free to drop the hammer on them.
But if mortals freely CHOOSE to summon them forth, or open a gate, or whatever, the celestials can't show up unless THEY are summoned or called by mortals in a manner similar to he fiends that were summoned. If they break the "rules," that's when the Powers that Be in the neutral spectrum show up (Inevitables, Rilmani, etc.) to make sure everything "balances."
Its just a theory that I use for my personal rational of how planar intervention works, though I'm sure there were more detailed rules for these things in Planescape and such. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 23:42:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And to keep this related to the discussion... I was wondering, have any of my fellow scribes ever made use of the Abbey of the Sword in an FR adventure? I'm thinking about the next stage of my campaign after the Waterdeep-to-Murann run I mentioned several weeks ago. And since my fortnightly PS game has finished up for the year, I've presently got a planar itch that only Sigil can scratch.
So, I'm looking for ideas mostly, or experiences with using the Abbey of the Sword in a FR campaign.
The Trail of Tears article I did for Perilous Portals is set in the Abbey of the Sword in part.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20011226x
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 00:15:55
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Aye, I remember that particular article... as it was one of the first sources I put aside when planning my initial campaign.
Strangely, or not, I've [very] recently had an opportunity to explore part of the Abbey, or rather its history, through an unexpected avenue.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 00:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye, I remember that particular article... as it was one of the first sources I put aside when planning my initial campaign.
Strangely, or not, I've [very] recently had an opportunity to explore part of the Abbey, or rather its history, through an unexpected avenue.
Anything you can share?
Here's a bit of trivia: The map for that abbey was drawn by my wife. (Her one published contribution to the Realms.) She was inspired by the castles we saw in Scotland on our honeymoon. There's a lot of features she put in that don't normally make D&D maps, like floors being offset in height depending on where they exist a spiral staircase.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 02:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye, I remember that particular article... as it was one of the first sources I put aside when planning my initial campaign.
Strangely, or not, I've [very] recently had an opportunity to explore part of the Abbey, or rather its history, through an unexpected avenue.
Anything you can share?
I don't believe I can share it publically, though I'll send you an email with the details.
quote:
Here's a bit of trivia: The map for that abbey was drawn by my wife. (Her one published contribution to the Realms.) She was inspired by the castles we saw in Scotland on our honeymoon. There's a lot of features she put in that don't normally make D&D maps, like floors being offset in height depending on where they exist a spiral staircase.
--Eric
Neato!
Can you give her my thanks? The map itself proved rather more useful than I had originally expected in my campaign.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Portals to Sigil
