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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 01:27:23
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Does anyone know, in the following monster races do females enjoy about the same opportunities for leadership as males? I.e., is there equality between the sexes? Or do the warriors tend to be mostly males? Are the battlefield leaders mostly males?
kobolds
goblins
Underdark hobgoblins
ogres
hill giants
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 03:07:31
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| i would have to guess that ogres are equal on account i've heard of females leading bands of ogres often times. but i would assume most of the lesser races that males were most higher ranking. i know this probably doesnt tell you more then you already know but hey im just saying all that i know, limited as that is. |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 03:31:00
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| I know that the FR tries to keep it the gameworld gender balanced amongst the non-monster races, despite the differences in athletic performance between male and female in the real world. It's fantasy. But I've always assumed that the more primitive, animalistic, constantly warring races are probably male dominated. Just checking, though. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 00:07:19
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I had heard somewhere that female trolls are bigger and that trolls tend to be matriarchal. But that might have been in the Slayers Guide to Trolls a 3rd party book, so not sure if that comes from a truly official source.
I know that Aarakocra tend to be matriarchal. Not one of the races you asked about I know, but it is an example of one that popped into my mind. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 02:03:20
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I don't have the opportunity to check my books right now, but I seem to remember (from the Gray lands of Thar in Elminsters Ecologies) that the ogre females can not be leaders, they do serve an important part as shamans though. This could differ among other ogres, but as females tend to be slightly weaker than males I think generally they would have a hard time fighting for the position of leaders. Goblin females have very little position in most sources I can think of, but there is a goblin queen among the Bakari(sp?), of Chult.
When it comes to the others on your list I think (without it being stated in written sources I can think of) that kobolt society would be open as far as sex goes; if you are of a devious, evil mind you will go far no matter who you are. Hobgoblins are organised, militaristic and domineering so I would think that a female would have a hard time rising to a position of power among them. Then again among hobgoblins where there are enough slaves to do all the less glorious work, the females might also be warriors. They admire skill so an especially intelligent or powerful female able to best the males might be accepted. Hill giants; well as long as a female is able to manipulate or bash the males the sky is the limit.
But as I said, these are only speculations, so your guess is as good as mine. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 11:31:02
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Kobolds are known to be led by females in the Realms - as featured in one of Ed's old Dragon articles: "Kobold Commotions".
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 11:48:12
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Kobolds are known to be led by females in the Realms - as featured in one of Ed's old Dragon articles: "Kobold Commotions".
Thanks! But any idea whether this can this be said to be commonplace for kobolds? Or is it the exception to the rule?
Mod edit: Fixed the quote coding, because I was trying to figure out why it looked weird.  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Nov 2006 17:48:18 |
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 00:49:25
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| You know, it wouldn't surprise me if kobolds were led by females. Aren't they like hyenas? Hyena packs are female-dominated. |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 01:33:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Aglaranna
You know, it wouldn't surprise me if kobolds were led by females. Aren't they like hyenas? Hyena packs are female-dominated.
Uh, they are dragonkin/reptilian humanoids in current lore. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Nov 2006 01:35:32 |
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 16:10:17
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Mm, I see. Can't be right all the time.  |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 16:34:34
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| its gnolls thats hyana based :) |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 17:00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
its gnolls thats hyana based :)
That's what I thought she/he was thinking of but I didn't mention it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4704 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 17:35:54
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Well 2nd Edition offered this drscription quote:
Kobolds are a cowardly, sadistic race of short humanoids that vigorously contest the human and demi-human races for living space and food. They especially dislike gnomes and attack them on sight.
Barely clearing 3 feet in height, kobolds have scaly hides that range from dark, rusty brown to a rusty black. They smell of damp dogs and stagnant water. Their eyes glow like a bright red spark and they have two small horns ranging from tan to white. Because of the kobolds' fondness for wearing raggedy garb of red and orange, their non-prehensile rat-like tails, and their language (which sounds like small dogs yapping), these fell creatures are often not taken seriously. This is often a fatal mistake, for what they lack in size and strength they make up in ferocity and tenacity.
In many ways they do appear dog=like, there is no direct mention of Dragon-kin. Also it should be noted that 2nd Edition Dragons are not described as having horns. Thus only posible link that can be derived that these kobolds were dragon-kin is "scaly hides" something that might or light not indicate lizard-kin.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 18:12:39
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| Kobolds were altered significantly from 2nd edition. They were made more reptilian, and linked to dragons. See Races of the Dragon for the most comprehensive look at them. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 19:39:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenigin
Kobolds were altered significantly from 2nd edition. They were made more reptilian, and linked to dragons. See Races of the Dragon for the most comprehensive look at them.
Exactly, which is what I said. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 00:29:35
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| FWIW, I'm interested in the above races for ed. 3.5. Interesting to note that while kobolds are reptilian (they lay eggs), and speak Draconic, they do have a voice that "sounds like that of a yapping dog." The most detailed info I've found on them is from the 2nd ed. MM. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 14:01:24
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Do you all think it's safe to assume that the above monsters races are for the most part male dominated? Or at least not completely indifferent to gender when it comes to who is in charge?
In other words, while females can end up in positions of authority, it is the exception rather than the rule? And that while all leadership positions in these races are routinely subject to challenge from rivals or underlings who wish to usurp power, the females are more at risk for that than males?
I would think that females who wield stronger magic than anyone else in the community are the ones who typically rise to power and hold onto it the longest in the above listed monster races. But because they are females in male dominated societies, they would be more at risk to be unseated by resentful males.
Does that seem a reasonable take? |
Edited by - Lemernis on 20 Nov 2006 14:03:46 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 15:44:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
FWIW, I'm interested in the above races for ed. 3.5. Interesting to note that while kobolds are reptilian (they lay eggs), and speak Draconic, they do have a voice that "sounds like that of a yapping dog." The most detailed info I've found on them is from the 2nd ed. MM.
you might as well accept that kobalds were ret-conned in 3E from the smallest 2E humanoid race into a 3E dragon-kin "runt" race...
I also think you should think about the definition of "dominated"...in alot of tribal settings the males may be the chiefs and warriors but it is the women who make the real decisions
and Giantcraft may have info you need on hill giants (and an ogre varient)
and the female troll was always the dominant leader, they are physically bigger and usually the shaman in the tribe |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 15:47:31
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I may be under a mis-interpretation (sp) here but for the majority arn't the "monster" races built up on The Strongest = The Leader ?
If i'm right then a strong female could lead weaker males.
But in reality a male or female orc / gnoll or whatever still dies easily enough with an axe in the brain! so the question seems kind of moot.
as long as players feel equal with each other then no prob.
Delz
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 18:32:19
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Well, there's a certain political correctness structured into D&D when it comes to all this. Don't get me wrong--imho it is defintiely a good thing to have female warriors and political leaders and whatnot. It makes for a more varied and richer gaming experience.
But as to the monster races, I guess for me it boils down to whether the females are capable of duking it out for power with the males within these extremely brutal and animalistic races. As has been pointed out the very strongest individuals assume power. And at least physically I would think that would be the males most of the time. If the aptitude for magic is about equal for the genders, the physical aspect will tip the scales.
On that basis I would think that leadership by a female would be fairly remarkable--and perhaps on that basis all the more respected. And yet also all the more deeply resented by power hungry males. Kind of a double-edged sword. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 01:35:37
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| Remember though that some animals (and presumably, "monsters" in a fantasy setting) do in fact have established matriarchies and stronger females, even though that hasn't been the case with humans. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Nov 2006 01:36:18 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 02:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Remember though that some animals (and presumably, "monsters" in a fantasy setting) do in fact have established matriarchies and stronger females, even though that hasn't been the case with humans.
Yup, yup. My female turtle kicked my male turtle's booty and we had to split them apart because she was eating his shell so that he started to bleed/lose parts of his shell. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 03:50:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Remember though that some animals (and presumably, "monsters" in a fantasy setting) do in fact have established matriarchies and stronger females, even though that hasn't been the case with humans.
Yup, yup. My female turtle kicked my male turtle's booty and we had to split them apart because she was eating his shell so that he started to bleed/lose parts of his shell.
Aw, poor little thing.  Female creatures can certainly be brutal when it suits their purposes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 12:15:26
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It would very helpful if folks could make an estimate of what they think the perecentage of females is in leadership positions for these races. I realize it's just a best guess/impression/surmise, but it gives me some idea of what people expect for the Realms (Note: for my purposes these races will be located in central Amn, late 1370; they are the races comprising Sythillis' army).
For example
Percentage of Females in Leadership Positions
kobolds 33%
goblins 25%
Underdark hobgoblins 15%
ogres 40%
hill giants 5%
Any help here will be greatly appreciated!
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monster races and equality of the sexes?
