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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 10:25:23
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Yes, yes, I know I am about 2 decades too late with this, but 2 decades ago I was playing The Dark Eye and didn't even know what the Forgotten Realms were...
I finished the first trilogy and am halfway through the second. I must admit, I am disappointed, especially since I respect Doug Niles greatly for the great Dragonlance books and Fox on the Rhine.
Individual aspects are very nicely done, the entire Earthmother idea is intersting. BUT why is it always some dark god plotting to take over the Moonshaes???? 
Certainly, the initial concept was for DragonLance, and Thakisis doing the things Bhaal does makes it a little more plausible, but only a little more.
Earthmother as a deity is quite pitiful, she is aware of what is happening to her in the first trilogy but aside from sending the leviathan, the unicorn and the pack, it appears she left her druids to figure things out for themselves. D'uh...I mean seriously, in a world where the gods are pretty active folk, the Earthmother assembles her specialists but NOT her soldiers? Sure it made Tristan, whom I like as a character, a hero, but in all honesty, the druids could've acted before some issues really became such.
Back to the bad god doing bad things problem. Bhaal and Talos, the duo infernale or rather one of several possible pairings (I almost forgot Malar!), wreak havoc on the islands. And the reason is, as it always is, power. And just power, no worshippers--this was before the ToT-- but plain ... um ... what kind of power?
An interesting twist would have been a crusade of Helm worshippers doing in the Moonshaes, but no it had to be evil, evil, evil gods doing bad, bad, bad things.
I read the books, and since they are compelling enough to stop me from throwing them across the room, I store the info in some part of my brain, but they aren't something I'd recommend, sadly enough siince I really do like Doug Niles's work.
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Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 13:51:41
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High Mace, I'll reply to this in detail later...I suddenly have to leave the office
but my basic take the Moonshea novels are unique compared to any other novel line...I think it was like they tried to make a "historical fantasy" novel line (e.g. the Empires or Maztica trilogy) that was not based in the Realms and stick it into the Realms
I read some writer discussing this in the past (Sage?) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 15:01:21
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I would remind everyone that this was the first official realms novel for what it's worth. While not the greatest trilogy, remember that it was also not intended for the realms and just kind of thrown in. so.....please don't bash my response or throw virtual rocks my way, just my opinions. I think it is quite interesting when new scribes or long time forgotten realms folks like myself and mace, go back to read or re-read older novels. The responses are usually what the ^%^&^. the realms has expanded greatly since I got into it back around 87.
anyways, my 2 coppers worth, otherwise I agree wholeheartedly  |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 15:09:37
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Yeah, originally the Moonshaes were suppose to be "Brittish DragonLance," not meaning specifically that they were set in Krynn, but that they were suppose to have been marketed to the Brittish market. At the time, TSR was publishing separate modules in the UK (most of which made it over to the states eventually), and the Moonshaes were going to be marketed in this manner, but when they got the Forgotten Realms, it was decided to stick it into their new setting. If you notice, the first novel has references to seven day weeks and the like, while from the second book on, they use more "Realmsian" references to tendays and such.
I always felt that the second trilogy did a better job of feeling like it was incorporating the Moonshaes into the Realms as a whole. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 15:26:48
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| Doug Niles book, DarkWalker on Moonshae was my first intro to the realms, I picked it up, fresh from the presses, at my local Waldenbooks. Back then I found the novel compelling enough to continue buying FR novels and products. I still love the setting and the characters that Mr. Niles introduced and love the very celtic/fey feel to the first novel. The idea of reclaiming a lost legacy (Cymrych Hugh? sp?) of a great king is still a good storyline. I will always have a soft spot for DarkWalker on Moonshae, even though there are some big issues with the overall concept... Remember also that Newt was our first faerie Dragon character... I am a sucker for faerie dragons.... |
ShadowJack |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 19:43:04
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Well, I see the point with much of what Mace is saying, but as mentioned the first books were very early in the realms published history, there is also the old code of ethics concerning evil doing evil things.
In spite of all their flaws the Moonshaes books will always be among my favorite Realms books; for no better reason than that I enjoy reading them. Then again I enjoy the Preludes and Meeting books in Dragonlance too. |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 19:56:00
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So do I, Jorkens *wink*.
Concerning the Moonshae-Trilogy, of course it wasn´t as riddled with depth as newer trilogies are, since, as pointed out, several times above, it was the first. I still thoroughly enjoyed it, and still do so on re-reads.
I think most of it was really geared to classical iconic fantasy...you´ve got Bhaal, who mainly appears as a force of pure evil and destruction, a defiler of the peaceful natural balance on the isles. Opposed you have the Earthmother, generally letting the mortals choose their path, aligned with legendary creatures like the unicorn, the leviathan and the pack (which all originated in different myths and weren´t really Realms-created...more adopted, so to say). Enter the young Hero-King proving his worth, the Non-Warrior Queen finding her role, a bunch of loveable comic reliefs (love that pseudodragon), the love-triangle and the wisdom of the magical races (halflings, firbolg, etc.).
If the trilogy (or trilogies) were re-written today, I might be disappointed in them, but that´s because the Realms have evolved so much and I expect novels to evolve with it. But, in all honesty, were many classics not classics (be that in fantasy, literature in general, movies, whatever), they couldn´t be viewed in the same light as they are and I wouldn´t like half of them. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
Edited by - Dart Ambermoon on 02 Nov 2006 19:57:07 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 20:02:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dart Ambermoon
I think most of it was really geared to classical iconic fantasy...you´ve got Bhaal, who mainly appears as a force of pure evil and destruction, a defiler of the peaceful natural balance on the isles. Opposed you have the Earthmother, generally letting the mortals choose their path, aligned with legendary creatures like the unicorn, the leviathan and the pack (which all originated in different myths and weren´t really Realms-created...more adopted, so to say). Enter the young Hero-King proving his worth, the Non-Warrior Queen finding her role, a bunch of loveable comic reliefs (love that pseudodragon), the love-triangle and the wisdom of the magical races (halflings, firbolg, etc.).
I felt the storyline was more tapping into the "old world" Britania-ish vs "new world" Britania-ish kind of thing... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 20:20:58
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Hmm...I hadn´t really thought of it like that, Kalin. Which can mean only one thing...I´ll have to re-read it yet again  , keeping that point in mind  .But if it was originally geared at a primarily British market, that would make sense of course. Especially since there are a good bunch of Celtic myth smatterings worked into the novels. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 20:41:17
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** minor camouflaged spoiler **
well I remember: the old "Earth Goddess vs the New Gods" (like the druid faith vs the christians), the "progressive northmen vs the conservative ffolk" (invasion of the normans), the arrival of the non-moonshea wizards and traders, the different demi-human/fey races having to come to terms with the humans (the end of the old folk tales/legends)
and to any UK resident, sorry if I made any errors about my poor UK history...I'm Canadian and even our own history is poorly taught |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 20:54:26
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I agree with you...though part of that was what I (probably misleadingly) meant with classical...see, that´s what happens if you´re father´s Irish and you devour all those fairytales as a little tyke.
I think the "traders-thingy" (without going into detail), the choice of the Earthmother´s representatives (the Pack reminds me of the Wild Hunt e.g.)and the gates to Fairy pretty much fall into line with your theory. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 00:20:06
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
...long time forgotten realms folks like myself and mace
Truth to be told, I started getting into the Realms in '99 or so, not that long have I been a Realms person. When Moonshae initially came out I think I played OD&D and some other games...  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2006 : 09:32:08
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| What's really interesting is that after the first novel, in both trilogies, which drags along ever so slowly, things pick up speed and gain momentum. I read the second and third books much faster than the first ones... Curious... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 05:15:02
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You know, I'm rather ashamed of why I bought the Moonshaes trilogy. I bought them because I really liked the look of the villainous Diedre that was on the cover of the old Villain's Lorebook. She's shown up several times in my games and been ressurected because of it and her unique history (that wasn't terribly well executed in the books---God damnit Tristan, show some compassion for your daughter!)
The Moonshaes are pretty much still what I think about when I view Toril's gods (along with Prince of Lies and Crucible of Cyric the Mad). They're treated as active and powerful agents in the lives of mortals that do their own dirty work even if it takes someone of monumental stupidity/anger to risk their power by involving them personally with an avatar.
What probably I liked most about the story is how the fact that until the gods start to get involved, life is fairly normal in the Moonshaes. I mean, it's not perfect but you don't see hordes of undead monsters and other craziness random-encountering down the road like you might in Drizzt Do'Urden's books. It actually manages to conjure the impression of a peaceful land rather than the "anything goes" feel of Toril. I don't consider this a flaw of the book but a defining aspect of the Moonshaes versus the rest of the Realm.
My player characters tend to retire on the Moonshaes because it's as close to paradise as you're going to get on the Realms with it being pretty much a lot like the human Evermeet. I wouldn't change a thing about these books really.
I do have to admit though that I can't buy Talos as the second God involved in the destruction of the Moonshaes. Bhaal's plan to wreck havoc on the Moonshaes depicts him as a very crazy god capable of just about anything but Talos is treated as a cunning mastermind that narrowly avoids bringing down the entire Realms. Honestly, I think they should have substituted Bane for Talos though since the current depiction of Talos doesn't really leave room for the subtle manipulation that this requires.
I don't see a problem with power as I figured that the gods wanted in addition to the worshippers (which would happen when they killed off the Earthmother) to wanting the Moonwells and other natural magical places to convert to their own usage. Plus, an island that will be converted almost to the man to the first available god really works well here.
Robyn and Tristan Kendrick I'll also comment on the fact as being probably the two most singularly likable protagonists in my reading history with the Realms. What I love most about them is they manage the juggling act of being lovable without being artificial. Tristan is a fairly typical guy with needs, stupidity, and inexperience that somehow don't manage to make him less of a hero. He's not hero material but is one of the few cases where "rising to the occasion" works in a fantasy novel. Robyn is the more settled of the two but she's also very much a girl at the start of the series
The fact that so much time passes (two decades!) is also a great change from the static nature of most of the stories as well. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 21:24:12
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| You're reason for buying it was certainly better than mine...I just thought the cover looked cool. I agree on the point of 'time passing'. That was something I loved so much about Raymond Fiest's works. And while I don't think the Moonshae trilogy was the best thing I've ever read, I liked that fact that it was mostly realistic. "We begin with normal Tristen Kenderik, you know, buying a dog, rather than starting with swarms of flesh-eating demons!" Nice. I mean, it felt sort of like a cliche at some points, but I like to look at the bright side of things. I'm taking a break from Realms, though, sort of, because I feel overwhealmed, like I HAVE to finish reading all this stuff. It spoils the fun, you know. |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
Edited by - Aglaranna on 05 Jan 2007 21:24:39 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 21:35:11
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Well who doesn't love a buxom lass in a loin cloth with dark hair and a purple top?
But yes, the fact that poor Tristan is just living a fairly normal life as the mid-level noble's heir when all Hell breaks loose in his life was just great. I also had to say that the villain of Black Wizards was one of the few occasions where the Red Wizards are portrayed as TERRIFYING and pretty much dominate the entire area around them.
The book also felt surprisingly mature for a Realms book. I mean, you had Bhaal's priest molesting the animated corpse of Robyn's likeable lover. That's pretty out there man. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 19:59:39
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Apart from the loin cloth and purple top, all I have to do for that is look in the mirror. 
But another thing I recall from Black Wizards...And the more I thought about it the more I was convinced I was right...Does anyone remember the redheaded outlaw O'Roarke and his band of merry men, whom hid in the trees and avoided the king avidly? Does this remind you of a certain legendary figure?  |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
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Grehnar
Acolyte
United Kingdom
44 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 00:12:53
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Apart from him being a bit inept?
Am I meant to think of Douglas Fairbanks, Errol Flynn, Richard Greene, Sean Connery, even Kevin Costner? Perhaps the historic figure himself?
I felt a rich vein was wiped out by this and thought it a bit poor and, in hindsight, quite surprising by FR standards. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 05:27:44
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Well you can't steal too directly from folklore in Forgotten Realms. One minor character parody misused in the Moonshaes has no real effect I think.
It can't all be Robin of Sherwood.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 22:08:47
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I finished both trilogies, which is more than can be said about other books, and I won't mention which ones, it would certainly shock you.
Taken by itself they are nice, but what is really intriguing is that they do get better (both trilogies) after book one, which if not bores you out of your socks isn't that spectacular... compared to the others anyway |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 22:11:13
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For me, I didn't like the second Trilogy as much.
Diedre gets horrifically killed and her sister is just boring by comparison.
Robyn and Tristan were much more likeable protagionists.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 05:05:40
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| I liked the second trilogy, but perhaps its because I felt that the books integrated the Moonshaes into the greater Realms more comprehensively. It seemed like in the second trilogy we got the Moonshaes reasserting its ancient traditions, following the goddess and all, while at the same time "modernizing" a bit, with a more centralized kingdom structure that was more likely to trade with realms like Waterdeep and have more contact with the rest of the Realms. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 02:48:36
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Meh, I liked the idea the Earthmother was replaced by Chauntaea.
Though the Friar of Chauntaea was so utterly unlike everything depicted of her that it was difficult to take seriously.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 08:12:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Meh, I liked the idea the Earthmother was replaced by Chauntaea.
That's one of the few parts of the Moonshae books I didnt like. In my Realms this is more of a case of the mainlanders giving the name of their deity to a local goddess in the manner of the Romans. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 13:35:01
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Well its more the case that I wish they'd discovered the local deity was Chauntaea all along but I suppose that would have reduced the drama of her 'death.'
I can't see Chauntaeaism as evangelical and conquering. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2007 : 17:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I can't see Chauntaeaism as evangelical and conquering.
I agree, but there is nothing so peaceful and "good" that a few mortals cant use it as a reason to tell others what to do or else. |
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The Moonshae Trilogies [possible spoilers]
