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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 00:16:00
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| But, from a game standpoint, its possible that they followers portrayed where "Heretics of the Faith" that gained their spells from an unknown benefacter, all the while justifying their own beliefs and deveations from the Selunite "norm." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 00:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
But, from a game standpoint, its possible that they followers portrayed where "Heretics of the Faith" that gained their spells from an unknown benefacter, all the while justifying their own beliefs and deveations from the Selunite "norm."
Well, we did acknowledge the possiblity that the spells were coming from elsewhere. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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darkcrow
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 17:06:37
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| I have a question about this Zhengyi character though. Is there a trilogy about the fall of Zhengyi. It seems that he was trying to do the same thing as Sammaster in the Rogue Dragons trilogy. Are they one in the same? |
May Tymora smile upon ye |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 17:19:49
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quote:
Originally posted by darkcrow
I have a question about this Zhengyi character though. Is there a trilogy about the fall of Zhengyi. It seems that he was trying to do the same thing as Sammaster in the Rogue Dragons trilogy. Are they one in the same?
No, there's no novel trilogy about him but his destruction is detailed in the 1e Bloodstone trilogy modules. Those modules were implanted into FR by TSR but originally they were never connected to a campaign setting. Sigh, I'm still missing one of them because they are rare to find and cost 50 to 150+ American each, for the hard copies.
It's also paraphrased in RAS's 2e Bloodstone Lands sourcebook, which builds on the 1e modules. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Nov 2006 17:20:59 |
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darkcrow
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 19:39:18
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| thanks Kuje |
May Tymora smile upon ye |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 13:28:39
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I must admit, I picked this book up without much enthusiasm. Jarlaxle and Entreri have never been my favorite characters. What I found was a great surprise! I really liked this story and the details on both Jarl and Art really made their characters "make sense" to me...
When i read the section on that corrupt priest of Selune I was ticked, not at RAS, there are bad apples even in goodly religons, that use their positions to steal what they want. It happened for hundreds of years in my own faith. I hope Entreri goes back there and cleans house... (I have not read that far yet) From what we know of Selune (I have to agree with RF) she would never allow this to go on in one of her temples. Even for the greater good. I believe she would call out her true faithful and clean that den of thieves out... |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 13:36:30
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| After reading the posts on the Temple of Selune in Memnon I forgot to post my main question... Forgive me, but I found the part where Calihye tries to kill Entreri very confusing. Actually the events immediately after... Jarlaxle and Kimmuriel are watching this unfold. Kimmuriel uses his psionic powers to shield Entreri. Jarlaxle tells the orc to kill Entreri, Entreri kills the orc, how? Did Kimmuriel's protection make it possible for Entreri to release this power in the form of a killing psionic attack? Then, they talk about Jarlaxle being shielded from Matron Baenre's attempt to sacrifice him and he kills the second boy of House baenre with a similar attack... Are they saying that both Jarl and Art also have psionic powers. What am I missing here. I know nothing of psionics in the D & D game... It also did not help that I was reading snippets of this as I was finishing up my work for a graduate class... Sorry so long, help me understand. Very Confused... |
ShadowJack |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 16:31:51
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| Those two scenes read, to me, like there is a psi power that was used to shield the two of them. Jarlaxle when he was going to sacrificed and Ent when she attacked him. However, after the attacks ended, the power had to go somewhere and so it burst into the attackers, thus killing them. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 17:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Those two scenes read, to me, like there is a psi power that was used to shield the two of them. Jarlaxle when he was going to sacrificed and Ent when she attacked him. However, after the attacks ended, the power had to go somewhere and so it burst into the attackers, thus killing them.
Yes, that's how I saw it too. Note how the orc and Jarlaxle's brother died from the exact same wounds A and J were supposed to take. Basically, the "power shields" transfered the kills to someone else. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 18:00:11
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| I finished the book on my lunch break. Excellent read. I must say that I perversely enjoyed the "justice" that Artemis Entreri metes out to those corrupt priests... thank you Kuje and RF. I assumed it was something like that, but I am not familiar with psionics... |
ShadowJack |
Edited by - ShadowJack on 04 Dec 2006 18:01:53 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 18:01:38
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| It is amazing that by the end of the book, Artemis practically seems like most other heroes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Dec 2006 18:05:16 |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 18:04:46
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| That is the intersting thing; up to this book I have never been an Artemis Entreri fan. Now, I must say that he is an intriguing character and I look forward to the next installment. |
ShadowJack |
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mavericace
Seeker
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 06:06:23
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| If I remember corectly R.A.Salavatore went in to more detail about the Psy-Power that transfered the damage to another in one of his past books when Entreri did battle with Drizzt in the crystal tower. |
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darkcrow
Learned Scribe
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2006 : 02:41:38
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| yes he did. In the Servent of the Shard. |
May Tymora smile upon ye |
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darkwalk
Acolyte
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2006 : 21:30:40
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| I think entreri's trial and his dialogues with Gareth and Kane were very impressive. Also i was pleased to see what jarlaxle can make out of any opportunity. How he can change a losing position into a winning one. Seeing gareth a real paladin, to judge himself along with entreri. The book was satisfying enough if not perfect. I must admit that it was the best of R.A. Salvatore for me. Not one of the many usual heroic books in the realms. |
----- I grant you your soul, but not your life. Be happy that I have found a measure of mercy. ----- |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 18:54:31
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| Does anyone know if there has been any canon info o n this temple of Selune in Memnon? In a nutshell, does canon sources describe their activities, or is this R.A. Salvatore's creation. I do not have any sourcebooks with me right now... |
ShadowJack |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 20:02:38
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Does anyone know if there has been any canon info o n this temple of Selune in Memnon? In a nutshell, does canon sources describe their activities, or is this R.A. Salvatore's creation. I do not have any sourcebooks with me right now...
The Protector's House is on the list of temples of the deities on Keep's main site, so it's been mentioned in canon before. Not sure what sourcebook has the mention though. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 20:20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by darkcrow
It's not that I don't agree with you Rinonalyrna Fathomlin. To us humans it dosen't make sense why a Chaoticly Good aligned Goddess like Selune would let such corruption go unnoticed. You would think Selune would not grant them any priestly spells if not vengfully destroying them herself. But that's not the case in this story. For some Godly reason none of that happened. Instead they continued to steal the innocence of young girls and from the rest of the poor they stoled there very last copper. I'm trying to think of something, anything that can be called "The Reasoning of Selune". I don't want to think one of my Favorite authors made a boo boo. It COULD be a subconscious relationship refering to the dealing of Christianity and Selune Temple corruption. See, Christianity is seen as a Good aligned religion and sometime bad things happen inside the church. Like the things that happened in this book. Thats just my opinion. Lets think that if this never happened, that Artemis would never exsist.
I justified this whole part of the story by saying that Selune knew that Artimis would come destroy the church thus punishing them for their crimes. So in a sense Artimis acted out the will of Selune by proxy. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 20:55:31
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| That was mostly what I was thinking when I read this. These priests created the very situation/person that would lead to their destruction... It is poetic justice, killed by their own blood so to speak... |
ShadowJack |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 20:48:07
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I had to put this one on hold, but I finally finished it.
Definitely a page-turner. The build up between Gareth's crew and Entreri/Jarlaxle was incredible. The dragons claiming Kane is the most dangerous man in the land. Very exciting. The team of high-level heroes was also very cool. And the battle between Olwen and Entreri was long-anticipated. I was waiting and waiting for someone to cross swords.
I thought Thibbledorf was filthy and crazy enough, but Athrogate is the most offensive barrel of destruction I've ever seen. It annoys me that his flails are called morningstars, but the same mistake was made in Castlevania: Simon's Quest, so I make exception. 
I really appreciated Entreri's personal journey and ultimate resolution concerning his mother and father, though I would have preferred that happen in another novel. The shift from Vassa to Calimshan was rushed and unexpected.
I didn't understand how Gareth could knight a man who he knew was evil. I'm not saying RAS had to quote the PHB, but would a 25 HD paladin ever knight a man with evil in his heart?
I wanted to see more with Spysong. I anticipated a long siege battle where heroes fought and died, gargoyles and undead, with the black dracolich taking the field, forcing the heroes to really show their stuff. I wanted to see Gareth himself step before Entreri in single combat. I wanted Kane to fight a dozen drow elf fighters. I wanted more resolution concerning Olwen and Mariabronne.
Ultimately, it was a let down when the story shifted to Calimshan. I suppose if Entreri and co. stayed, they'd be killed, but I wanted more there.
I was also perplexed that clerics of Selune could conduct such business for 40+ years without being challenged by other clerics from other lands. That seemed strange.
All in all a great novel. I enjoyed it. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 27 Dec 2006 20:54:40 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 22:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust I anticipated a long siege battle where heroes fought and died, gargoyles and undead, with the black dracolich taking the field, forcing the heroes to really show their stuff. I wanted to see Gareth himself step before Entreri in single combat. I wanted Kane to fight a dozen drow elf fighters. I wanted more resolution concerning Olwen and Mariabronne.
Wow, I guess we like different stuff in novels. I liked this novel too...but I actually felt it benefited from less combat and more conversations/intrigue. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 01:02:12
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Not that I wanted more combat. In fact, I have difficulty following the moment-to-moment duels in these books. Swords turning over and under blades, hips shifting, patterns rolling in and out, etc. etc... I get lost sometimes (though I thought the Olwen/Entreri duel was great). I just wanted to see more of the Spysong gang. The last 25% of the novel could have continued with those heroes, whether through a longer siege battle (which would have been epic and very cool), through the continuing antics of Jarlaxle and Kimmuriel, or Olwen's desire to avenge Mariabronne.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 28 Dec 2006 01:02:29 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 23:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
Not that I wanted more combat. In fact, I have difficulty following the moment-to-moment duels in these books. Swords turning over and under blades, hips shifting, patterns rolling in and out, etc. etc... I get lost sometimes.
Yep, me too. That's why I was grateful that the novel didn't contain those battles you mentioned...because let's be honest--RAS would likely have written them just as you stated: so very highly detailed that readers like me just become lost in the text and/or bored. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2006 : 18:48:36
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The Road of the Patriarch review
I'm not sure whether I really like this book or not. At heart, what bugs me about the book is the fact that it veers in directions that are unexpected but also not entirely satisfying to me. While I appreciate surprise, there's also a good deal of feeling cheated.
The biggest boon to the book is the fact that we see Artemis Entreri in rare form. Artemis kicks ass and takes names through much of the book with his defeat of Olwen only marred by the fact that he didn't kill him. The character handles many things in the book that are interesting and fascinating character pieces. The sexual abuse that Artemis suffered as a child isn't a comfortable topic for a fantasy novel but some much needed revenge was finally dealt out (and again, he should have killed his adoptive father).
At the end of the book though, Artemis has achieved regression rather than character growth. R.A. failed in this respect because Artemis isn't dead. He's back to square one since he was a dead man before he left Pasha Pooka's service. The only change is the assumption that he may no longer be a killer but I don't think that's the case either. An emotionally dead killer is what Artemis STARTED as.
Frankly, one has to wonder why the events at the Temple even matter to him either. It's the problem of the fact R.A. never actually gets into Artemis' head. I think Artemis needs a freaking journal oddly enough. The only time we ever get his unvarnished opinions is when he rips into Gareth and that was pretty satisfying.
Jarlaxle I don't mind screwing up but the problem of the book is the fact that he pretty much is depicted out of his depth for most of the book. I didn't mind this, its good to challenge him, but I resented that so very little was actually accomplished by him. I *WANTED* to see Artemis Enteri the First King of Vaasa.
This is the problem with the book I have the most. Gareth needed an ass kicking. Yes, he's a wonderful monarch and a lovely guy but they should have killed him. Killed him, his entire family, and probably a few others before its over. It would have been a great deal more interesting as a story and also made the situation in Vaasa/Damara more interesting.
At heart, Artemis never wanted to be King but he's the only man I think that might actually make a spectacular one by ruling least. By unknowingly touching on the racism, religious fanaticism, and classism inherent in most fantasy....Gareth is a monster even if he doesn't realize it and is the best of them. At least, I wanted some affirmation that he realized he was triffling with death itself.
I felt a bit cheated that the most damage they'd done to Damara was leaving a few hundred kobolds dead. A much more satisfying ending would have been Jarlaxle actually leading out his legions to slaughter the forces of good and....knowing it'll do nothing....just have them do it to make his reputation. A nice way to remind us that our "hero" is an evil bastarve and we can be happy with that.
I also felt the book changed too much in its sudden swerve to the corrupt clergy of Selune. Part of this story made me uncomfortable because it boils down to the fact that Artemis Enteri's past pretty much didn't make him a man deluded about the good in the world. In Calimport, it seems every single one of his observations is true. The city is as much a moral blackhole as Menzoberrazan. I don't mind an evil Selune clergy anyway. The girl is busy with all of her stuff and stopping one temple is problematic enough without Shar's folk killing their folk left and right. This is Calimport after all where the King worships CYRIC for Ao's sakes.
I did like the subplot though even if it felt like an utterly different book. Sort of like the Scouring of the Shire except not even that vague connection to the storyline.
I would also like to add that Calihye is a bit of a problem for me because I never bought the Artemis/Calihye romance. She never seemed a fully realized character and certainly not in Artemis' league. I never got what he saw in her and honestly felt like he would have done better with Gareth's evil niece (of course Jarlaxle got there first)
I'm still going to give the book an eight out of ten swords for its skill in craftsmanship. It's the most enjoyable book I've read since the first one in the series and blows the Hunter's Blades trilogy out of the water. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 02:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I *WANTED* to see Artemis Enteri the First King of Vaasa.
I kind of did too. The thing about Gareth is, he is technically a good guy, but all too often the writing in this book (and other works having to do with him) turns into a barefaced hero-worshiping lovefest, and that is something that almost always annoys me, especially in regards to rulers. I don't think I've ever read about a ruler who didn't love the idea of having more power, and this book didn't show Gareth to be an exception to that. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 03:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I *WANTED* to see Artemis Enteri the First King of Vaasa.
I kind of did too. The thing about Gareth is, he is technically a good guy, but all too often the writing in this book (and other works having to do with him) turns into a barefaced hero-worshiping lovefest, and that is something that almost always annoys me, especially in regards to rulers. I don't think I've ever read about a ruler who didn't love the idea of having more power, and this book didn't show Gareth to be an exception to that.
And without adding anything deeply philosophical to this discussion, killing off Gareth was never going to happen, since he appears in the Year of Rogue Dragons books. |
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yargarth
Seeker
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 04:51:53
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| i think that if he ended it where they were exilied and thought of another book for artemis That it would be much better. The whole end part with artemis and his mom and "dad" seemed forced and not really a smooth transition |
"You take a step, then another. That's the journey. But to take a step with your eyes open is not a journey at all, it's a remaking of your own mind."
-Orson Scott Card
Ender in Exile |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 23:29:42
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And without adding anything deeply philosophical to this discussion, killing off Gareth was never going to happen, since he appears in the Year of Rogue Dragons books.
I didn't say anything about killing him.
You don't need to kill off Gareth for Artemis to be the first king of Vaasa, since Gareth himself isn't king of Vaasa yet. If he was, why would he be trying so hard to tame it? Gareth doesn't want someone else to have the land he so desperately wants, which was part of the point of that subplot. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 Jan 2007 23:32:31 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 23:35:24
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| Sorry RF, I was quoting you and Charles in one shot, and Charles did mentioned killing off Gareth . . . didn't mean to imply that you had said that specifically. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 23:41:03
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| 'S OK. I'm not pro-death, but I am pro-"knock heroes off their pedestals a bit". :) |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 Jan 2007 23:41:34 |
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Road of the Patriarch (Spoilers!)
