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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Apr 2003 : 15:21:06
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"Sociallizing?" . . . . What's that? 
And I wouldn't call it a misinterpratation. Just a different one. History isn't exactly immutable, and especially not religion.
And you're quite right about the things people say about the Templars. The reason they were disbanded (or the primary one) was because of an accusation of pagantry and idolatry. In reality, it was confusion about the Shroud of Turin -- and if you know what that is, then you know they still aren't agreeing about its actual nature. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2003 : 17:44:07
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When the Templars were tried as Heretics soem went into hiding, and others went to Portugal. The Templars often went to jerusalem, even when it was in Muslim hands, and they travelled there by boat. Templars became GREAT sailors by the 13th century. IN Portugal, it is beleived, some of the remnants of the Order, formed the Knights of Portugal, (I may have the name wrong) which essentially became a sailing order. One famous member of this order was an Italian Sailor named Christopher Columbus. He had the sails of the Santa Maria decorated with a cross of course, but he very specifically wanted it to be a RED cross on a white field. This was ONE of the Banners of the Knights templar. And it is VERY possible the KNights of Portugal reached the shores of Virginia in the 1500's, about 70 years before the English did. THis is STILL in debate.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2003 : 19:04:26
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I forgot to mention a book that some of you might be familiar with. Elizabeth Moon wrote a Series of books called the "Deeds of Paksennarion". This is an excellent account of how a girl bought on a sheepfarm, becomes a soldier, and then some paladins recognize she may be one of them. She goes into paladin training, gets captured by a race of underground evil elves(hmmmmmm....), sinks to a low, and then fully grows into a Paladin. It is such a great account of the journey one would take to become a Paladin. It is just INCREDIBLE.
Elizabeth Moon, is a woman who was a former Marine. She has alot of military know how, and her books reflect this. SHe also did a great sci-fi series on a space navy. Anyone that is interested in Paladins should read this book. It is not a book sanctioned by the publishers of D&D, but it certainly IS based on the material.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2003 : 21:52:31
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And don't forget the prequel, The Legacy of Gird. That's the story of how the guy that Paksenarrion's order follows got to be who he is: a power (not a god or demigod, more along the lines of a Christian saint) that works through a militant order to protect the people.
That book (well, two books, but I read it in the omnibus) is actually a better read than The Deed of Paksenarrion (a trilogy, also in an omnibus), but there are no paladins in it. (Save for a mention right at the end, which isn't a spoiler.)
The Deed of Paksenarrion, though, is very good for anyone who likes fantasy paladins like in D&D or the militant orders like the Templars or the Hospitaliars.
However, those are the only books by Elizabeth Moon that I think are worth it. Her science fiction stories grate on my scientific nerves.  Her description of the behavior of light really got my goat.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2003 : 23:25:33
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| I never read her sci fi books. And I never read the prequel either. But I heard from everyone it was great. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 15:14:47
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Yep, i read some of her books (a part of), it was so badly written that i stopped : i felt hang over...
However, i don't think that Templars look like paladins, as its decribed in DnD. Well, actually they look like but they don't feel like, if u see what i mean. They are probably responsable of the biggest masacres ever seen in the Middle Age -after those done by the Teutones in the east of Europe-
Anyway, they were the best warriors of the South, Teutones staying the best of the North. Then come the french and first Spanish chevalry.
ok, i stop its becomming boring. If u want more information about Middle Age in Europe, call me, im fond of this part of History.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 15:35:54
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I think Mournblade was talking more about the ideals of these orders, not how well they performed them. After all, human nature isn't perfect.
Bookwyrm casts a message spell.
(Psst . . . Eilinel! Try David Weber! Trust me!) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 16:31:33
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isn't perfect, isn't perfect... not perfect at all!!!
Believe me, teutones were frenetic fanatics!
Even when the order was destroyed -against other christians...- they fought one against ten or twenty ! few stopped before the end.
David Weber, ok. Let's try a sense motive check... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2003 : 23:40:28
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Eilenil is absolutely correct. We shall certainly have to exchange ideas sometimes!!!!!!
The Teutonic Order conquered much of what we know now as Latvia and Estonia by the year 1483. They essentially stole it from other christians.
The templars were FANATICS. They massacred people, but not as bad as Richard The Lionheart. The massacres by the Templars were not on the scale of general Crusaders however. If one is going to point out the massacres and atrocities of Teutons and Templars, lets not forget the Spanish Chivalry who would slaughter women and children for being anything other than CHristian. Or the Spanish Chivalry slaughtering Jews and Muslims that would not leave spain in 1492.
The point is, the middle ages was a time of harsh warfare, where human rights were practically non existent. It is safe to say, the IDEAL of chivalry is righteous and Just. The PRACTICE of chivalry, whether it was by French, English, or Danes was an excuse to shed blood. The chivalry we study is ideal, and not how it was acted in the middle ages. KNIGHTS WERE BULLYS.
According to Sydney Painter's "French Chivalry" if a Noble night had lustful urges, it was acceptable for him to rape a peasant woman, as they were not considered 'ladies'.
Eilenil you are absolutely correct. But let us not forget to put the Teutonic Knights and Templars within the scope of the time period. The middle ages was a time of brutality.
But I still LOVE it.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 03:22:25
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That's the whole purpose of fantasy and fiction, isn't it? How we can take all the parts we want from something like the Templars (like their ideals) and put them in something like the paladin. Just because of the facts not being pure doesn't mean that the fiction is tainted.
We weren't raising the Templars to be a perfect order. And the examples Mournblade quoted are things I consider horrific, even under the context of the day (and I'm very good at seeing things in context). So don't put words in our mouths. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2003 : 08:10:34
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Thanks mournblade
Lets charge against infidels and kill'em all!!!
sounds of slashing and burning, cries...
ok, ok, its fantasy... and the evil exists in fantasy. But, dot tell me that gods like Tyr are open-minded, ill laugh. 
and the rats tend to disappear in the street in fantasy games...
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 03:23:18
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HAH HAH!
Well Eilenil, except for cities with Mythal's I have Rats on the streets of my cities:) AND I agree, Tyr I invision as a VERY closed minded god. Just read my dragon and paladin incident to see that. The god of justice I envision as VERY strict. But I do NOT envision him Massacring people. Unlike this world, the elements of Good and Evil are tangible in the forgotten realms, and Tyr certainly follows them.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 08:11:32
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| What i find weird about Tyr is that he is supposed to be Lawful GOOD. So when he is the Judge during the trials; he should naturaly favorise the 'good' side. IMO, the god of justice should be LN |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 08:29:42
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*blink*
Um, I seem to recall from Prince of Lies that Tyr was a neutral power . . . and that was why he was delivering the verdict to Mystra that she had to reconnect Cyric to the Weave . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:07:07
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And why loyal? Does it mean that he tends to make more verdicts against chaotic beings?
I feel better with a loyal justice, sure, but it doesn't seem normal for me.
there is elf justice which is chatic good too.
The justice is like everything, so subjectiv.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:22:33
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I agree Bookwyrm, in Prince of Lies is neutral. But in his statistics, he's LG.
But i still think that Lawful is the best. After all, he must stands to the laws edicted by Ao. Imo, for what it worths  |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:49:18
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| And why should have a lawful alignment? |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 09:54:23
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| When you're LAWful, you follow the LAWS. I think a judge must interprete the laws without favoriting anyone. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 17:31:02
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Quite right, Zemd. The whole aspect of a fair judge is one who favors no particular side. That's hard to do, of course, being as judges are merely human (I'm talking about our world now).
One example of what I think is the best sort of system for a judge to work under is in the United States Constitution. I'm not talking about the-American-way-is-superior-to-all; this is just the only example I know the specifics of off the top of my head. Nor am I talking about laws, just the system as it pertains to the judge.
See, under the Constituion, a Supreme Court Justice is appointed by the President whenever there is a vacancy. So a Justice might feel obligated to rule in the President's favor. But that isn't always true. See, a Justice is appointed for life.
Why is that important? Because the Justice is never up for reelection, and so doesn't have to please anyone! (S)He can freely rule to the letter of the law without worrying that (s)he's going to loose that cushy job.
The first time this happened was when (I think it was President James Madison, but I'm horrible with names) a president appointed a Justice who was a good friend of his. However, that Justice never ruled in his friend's favor simply because he was a friend. He instead stuck to the letter of the law. (His friend wasn't happy, I can tell you that.)
Now, I'm not saying that the US Supreme Court is perfect -- I've really hated some stupid decisions they've made in the past. All I'm saying is that for a judge to be effective, (s)he needs to be free of constraints of public opinion.
Let's go back to D&D.
If the judge in question is Lawful Good, then that's not too bad. And in fact, most people would think that it's the best. However, this judge might not rule in favor of greatest balance, and instead focus on the immediate good. A judge who interperates laws in the English system (which is what is used in most of the world and in D&D as well) has to look long-term.
A Chaotic judge, what ever the moral alignment would be, would tend to act like acting erratically. A lot like trying to please the most amount of people, as if knowing election time is near.
If I were to go through all nine alignments, then that would not only take too long, it would also be repeating a lot of information. So, I'll just leave it like that. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 18:28:02
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| A chaotc judge would also decide as he feels, not as the law should be interprated. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 : 02:11:07
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It is VERY interesting to note, that the Vikings who worshiped Tyr, saw him as the god of warriors, and also as a judge of sorts. I LOVE how Ed Greenwood included the Viking god Tyr into the pantheon. He is the Viking god Tyr in all respects. He is blind like the Viking God (Notice even the Vikings thought justice should be blind), and he has only one hand like Tyr of the Vikings...
Norse Tyr lost his hand to Hel's hound Garm. Faerun Tyr lost his hand to Kezef the Chaos hound.
I have extended this a bit further. Since Deities and Demigods (3e) was published, I am now allowing Valkyrie as servants of Tyr. He is the Only god of the Forgotten realms that has Valkyrie as servants. Why? He is the only god with any connection to Asgard. My view of the planes is really that of a multiverse. The planes are infinite, and that Cosmology in FR Campaign setting, I still follow, but each of the deities domains is part of one of the classic planes. For example Bane's realm is located on Acheron. You can travel to the god's realms through the realms cosmology or through the classic planar pathways set up in the 1st edition.
How did I get on this subject?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 : 04:25:47
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| That's pretty good, Mournblade. I like that. Any other such tidbits that you added? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 00:53:05
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| The Faiths & Pantheons web enhancement has a lits of all the paladin (and monk) orders in the Realms. Presumably, the deities listed are the only deities who officially have paladins. |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2003 : 10:00:11
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Ok, all of that is true... but a lawful judge will favore a lawful guy against a chaotic one, anyway, just because they can understand themself. Since u are close to the mind of the one u judge u must feel the same... And don't tell me that there is no judge in elf kingdoms. Elf don't judge by an other way and are defenitivly chaotic by nature. And so?
Its u who make the laws, so a judge god don't follow any other laws than its, or maybe those of Ao? But i don't think so, only Helm may know what Ao want exactly, and Ao doesn't care about mortels.
Chaotic judgment is not always how u feel, but i could be how people feel at this time, which is quite different.
Besides, the lawful people use to care only about men or humanoids, so to speak. At least in DnD. Chaotics tend to care also about nature, animals, and the relationship with them. Is it really strange?
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2003 : 02:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
Ok, all of that is true... but a lawful judge will favore a lawful guy against a chaotic one, anyway, just because they can understand themself. Since u are close to the mind of the one u judge u must feel the same... And don't tell me that there is no judge in elf kingdoms. Elf don't judge by an other way and are defenitivly chaotic by nature. And so?
Its u who make the laws, so a judge god don't follow any other laws than its, or maybe those of Ao? But i don't think so, only Helm may know what Ao want exactly, and Ao doesn't care about mortels.
Chaotic judgment is not always how u feel, but i could be how people feel at this time, which is quite different.
Besides, the lawful people use to care only about men or humanoids, so to speak. At least in DnD. Chaotics tend to care also about nature, animals, and the relationship with them. Is it really strange?
Eilinel!!! STOP! Your trying to cast that CONFUSION spell with the STILL SPELL feat again aren't you?????
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2003 : 16:11:36
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I have got that feat and the silent spell feat too... i don't try, if u want my advice, i do.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2003 : 12:56:27
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quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
I have got that feat and the silent spell feat too... i don't try, if u want my advice, i do.
As you may have notice she doesn't use her silent spell feat often...  |
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Aeriden Raven
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2003 : 10:49:37
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quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
Ok, all of that is true... but a lawful judge will favore a lawful guy against a chaotic one, anyway, just because they can understand themself.
No, that's what a chaotic judge might do A lawful judge will uphold the law and judge everyone in the same way. Naturally judges are no robots, so there will always be individual differences, but I think a lawful judge is the best you can do.
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
Besides, the lawful people use to care only about men or humanoids, so to speak. At least in DnD. Chaotics tend to care also about nature, animals, and the relationship with them. Is it really strange?
I was wondering where you got that information. In my opinion this has nothing to do with alignment, only with classes and specific characters. I can think of plenty chaotic characters who do not care a lot for nature and animals (I don't mean evil characters) and of lawful characters who might.
I think the paladin discussion is an interesting one. I think they should be lawful, but everything about his alignment has already been said by people who have a lot more background knowledge than I do |
Edited by - Aeriden Raven on 25 Jun 2003 10:50:59 |
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eilinel
Learned Scribe
France
296 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2004 : 23:41:25
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mmh
i don't see any main difference between the way dwarves and elves judge. and i don't think one is better than the other.
and, however dwarves are mostly loyal when elves are chaotic.
has alignment any relation with judgment?
i personaly don't think so.
that's why i think Tyr shouldn't be lawful good.
or, he should be the god of one type of judgment...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 06:03:46
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::coughs at the dust from the old scroll::
Dwarven society is clan-based. The clan comes first, then the family, then the individual. With elves, things are less ritualized, and more inclined to spirit than form. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Paladins
