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Originally posted by Icelander
Self-denial is a pretty basic tool for mystics. By giving up certain pleasures, people feel more holy and more in touch with their god.

It makes perfect sense to me that there would be religious orders in the Realms with tenets of chastity and or celibacy, as long as it fit the god.

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Originally posted by Ozzalum

Ok, so I can see the argument that forbidding priests or paladins to marry and procreate might not necessarily happen much in the Realms or ever be a commandment from on high. But recreational sex? Let's say Joe paladin just got done vanquishing evil and is feeling like celebrating. Everyone is ok with him finding some prostitute and going at it? On the theory that if a god said no to that sort of behavior in his most devoted followers, that he would lose his followers so some other pro-prostitution god?

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Originally posted by Ozzalum

What if the prostitute doesn't take her birth control root? Do the bastard offspring of paladins tend to take their daddy's faith?

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Originally posted by Ozzalum

What about priestesses and paladinesses? Is it reasonable to assume some gods might rather have their holy warriors out warring instead of sitting in the temple as single moms?

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Originally posted by Ozzalum

If you are right, it appears that the only thing that every deity can agree to is that meaningless sex is not to be stigmatized.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Aw, come on. Who said anything about free love? I said that a deity would not benefit from telling people to do something they're very much inclined to do. Free love did not enter into it, and tossing that out there is a deliberate misreading of what I said.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And yet other religions have considered sex to be a religious experience. Given a choice between a religion that says no sex at all is the way to holiness, and one that says sex is the way to holiness, which option are most people going to choose?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

While this is true, kids often do follow the religion of their parents. Recruiting outsiders may be okay, but breeding them does a better job of ensuring future worshippers.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If some orders were sworn to that, I'd expect that prohibition to originate with ranking clergy, and not with the deity.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Most people feel the need for family, and/or companionship, and/or sex. Encouraging them to forgo these things for the sake of following one deity is a good way to encourage them to worship a less-restrictive deity.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's already established that deities of the Realms do not expect or demand 24/10 obeisance. It's established that people of the Realms worship multiple deities on a daily basis. If a deity is okay with that, they're certainly not going to sweat family time.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Shockingly, a lot of real world religions that encourage total abstinence have found that some people -- even priests! -- can't stick to that kind of restriction.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If it fit the god, yes... But I can't think of a single deity in the Realms that it would fit. It simply does not mesh with what we know of the gods and of the Realms.

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If prostitution has no stigma, then no one has a problem with it.

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They would likely follow the faith of whoever raised them.

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That's a reasonable assumption... However, with a variety of magical and non-magical forms of birth control, it's pretty unlike that a priestess is going to have an unplanned pregnancy. And it's also unlikely that any person, regardless of religion, is going to be constantly rushing from battle to battle until old age claims them.

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I'm just saying that there really isn't a good reason for any deity of the Realms to demand abstinence.

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Aw, come on. Who said anything about free love? I said that a deity would not benefit from telling people to do something they're very much inclined to do. Free love did not enter into it, and tossing that out there is a deliberate misreading of what I said.

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Free as opposed to restricted? Is that not a correct usage?

I am aware that we're talking about a continuum of how free it can be, but your contention was that restricting it was a self-defeating strategy. I disagree and I cite the many real world religions that restrict sexual activity in one way or another as an example that some humans apparently seek out religions where their natural urges are deliberately surpressed.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Of course other gods will say that. Sometimes the same god will say both, among different clergies or monastic orders.

Deities are selling a product. When seeking to market something, it helps to understand your demographic. Focusing on one group of consumers can be a good way to get good peneration, but at the expense of wider appeal.

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Originally posted by Icelander

By catering to both ascetic mystics and unabashed hedonists, a deity can maximise its worshipper base. Sexual desire is a basic human drive, yes, but the need for spirituality is too.

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Originally posted by Icelander

And real world religions have had great success by selling spirituality as being opposed to fleshly urges.

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Originally posted by Icelander

It makes no sense to say that no fictional religion would try the same approach.

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Originally posted by Icelander

And second, which religion would people choose, the one where sex is considered sinful or the one where it is holy? As it happens, we have both versions on the real world. I'm going to let you guess which version has had more success in history.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Every child of a worshipper is a potential worshipper. Every worshipper convinced by a prozetilyzer is a worshipper, no further work needed.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Converts are better than potential worshippers, because there is nothing potential about them.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Not when it's voluntary.

You can choose to be a lay worshipper of Catholicism and have a family or you can choose to dedicate your life to the faith. Both have their appeal among actual people, you know.

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Originally posted by Icelander

You are claiming that humans will behave in a certain way, as if it is a law of some kind, when the real world does not agree with you.

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Originally posted by Icelander


They accept this because they have to accept it.

That does not mean that the deity would not prefer to have a greater proportion of a worshipper's time and attention. It's just that they are rarely in a position to demand it.

It's a seller's market for faith.

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Shockingly, a lot of real world religions that encourage total abstinence have found that some people -- even priests! -- can't stick to that kind of restriction.

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So?

The mere acts of trying and even of repenting are acts of worship. Hence, it's all a win for the god.

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Originally posted by Icelander


You can't think of one?

So you cannot imagine priests of Chauntea being sworn to chastity* to honour the fruitful aspect of their goddess?

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Originally posted by Icelander

Nor sacred guardians of Helm that swear to take no wife, hold no lands and enter into no obligations before their duty to guard a given shrine, land or object?

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Originally posted by Icelander

Brides of Kelemvor, wedded to the death and the dead?

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Originally posted by Icelander

The Forlorn of Shar, seeking peace in the absence of emotion and human contact?

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Originally posted by Icelander

The Heirs of Battle and Blood, crusaders of Tempus who are given great honour by all warriors for their choice to dedicate themselves entirely to the pursuit of warfare to the exclusion of all else?

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Originally posted by Icelander

The Wives of the Drowned Men, a society in the servicve of Umberlee consisting of those whose spouses were lost at sea and who dedicate themselves to celibate service of the goddess in hopes of being reunited with them after death?

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Originally posted by Icelander

The point is, I can imagine nearly any god in Faerun choosing to demand abstinence in certain situations or from certain of his followers. It makes sense for them to do so in many cases, because people like senseless shibboleths in their religion. It makes them feel more real.

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Originally posted by Ozzalum

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If prostitution has no stigma, then no one has a problem with it.

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Well, my point is that it is absurd that prostitution carries no stigma in the eyes of any god. The realms feels so realistic and thought out until you stumble upon these things that remind you it was designed by a flower child.

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Originally posted by Ozzalum


Precisely my point, this completely eliminates the incentive of the baby-daddy's god. That prostitute might just raise her child to dislike the paladin that swept into town, begot a child and ran off to the next dragon. Better to keep that lance in check.

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Originally posted by Ozzalum

But would they be told to take birth control by their gods while they were campaigning on their behalf? Do the gods take care of birth control issues themselves? Isn't it more realistic that a paladin would simply devote herself wholly to her god until such time as she was ready to retire and start a family? It just feels wrong to have a noble paladin woman say "Well, I'm on the root and it's not really wrong so long as I don't have any feelings for him."

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Originally posted by Ozzalum

But there are good reasons for some gods to demand murder and whatnot? Why wouldn't there be a portfolio for celibacy or chastity? It's got to be more common aspect of the human condition than murder, even in the Realms.

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Just like the recent query about snacks, this one has so many replies that I’m sure I’ll miss a lot of the euphemisms employed in the Realms. However, let’s have a go at a fragmentary list:

• low-coin lasses

• high-coin girls (obviously, this term and the preceding one refer to rates charged - - and, usually, “quality of presentation,” which is to say: to charge high rates, a female usually has to be pretty if not beautiful, actress enough to enjoy her work and to portray what the client wants [from fear to innocence to tenderness, and a liking for whatever the client’s preferences are], to be clean and provocatively dressed, and to operate in less than squalid surroundings)

• ladies of the evening (implies the ability to function as escorts in social situations; i.e. know how to behave at a feast or formal gathering as ladies of breeding, not merely - - or perhaps not even - - sexual partners)

• bedwarmers (entirely neutral and open-society-polite term, as it can imply either gender, and everything from a personal maid who literally warms a rented bed with a bedpan and then departs, perhaps never being seen by the renter, to a regular companion hired repeatedly by a given traveler on every visit to a given establishment; usually means “good, hard-working, trustworthy prostitute”)

• alley girls (implies low and coarse street workers, often women who literally ply their trade in alleyways by night, usually swift “offerings” for a few coins; young boys who can scrape up a copper coin between them usually get their first sight or fondle [only] of bared female flesh by visiting an alley girl in daylight)

• festhall downdancers (“festhall dancers” are usually just that: dancers, though they may flirt and dance unclad or partially so; “downdancers” is the usual shorthand term for “MORE than just dancers”)

• lightskirts (a mild term, usually implying prostitution but can mean merely promiscuous)

• looseskirts (need not be a professional; this term really means “willing woman,” but is often employed to mean prostitute by folk who dare not, or don’t want to be, more explicit)

• snakehips (an exhibitionist and willing sexual partner who is either contortionist or acrobatic, or “willing to try” precarious sites for trysts, such as rooftops, high tree boughs, atop wagons, high windowsills, hanging from ropes or balconies, on horseback, and so on; again, need not be a professional)

• low-lantern ladies (refers to the Southern [the Vilhon, Calimshan, and points south] practice of dancing, disrobing, and then lovemaking all to the subdued amber or red light of almost-shuttered lamps that have panels of one of those two hues)

• willing-arms (usually used to refer to a village whore, as in “ah, this’ll be the local willing-arms”)

• escorts (implies the acting ability and training to function as “arm candy” in social situations such as revels, feasts, and formal gatherings as persons of breeding, not necessarily sexual partners)

• hard-currency girls (a term rarely heard these days; it implied that this particular prostitute wouldn’t extend credit - - but almost no one does, any more, so the term is dying out except as a leering, over-the-top “scandalous” term used in some plays - - usually by a “shocked, utterly SHOCKED, my dear!” character)

• courtesan (a professional “hostess” employed by a ruler at his court, to entertain important visitors; need not have a sexual role at all, but usually does; tone of voice or local knowledge implies sexual side of profession if it exists)

• warmflanks (a very “polite” way of referring to prostitutes; can be said in polite social conversations by or in the hearing of anyone, including disapproving old matrons and children)

• whiplovers (originally only a slighting way to refer to worshippers of Loviatar, or S&M -enjoying cultists of Shar and Bane, its use broadened to include masochists venerating Ilmater, and finally all sexual masochists; recently, has seen use in Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan as a term for those who offer their bodies to be whipped in return for coin)

• kisscoin (a polite, affectionate term for those willing to make love for pay)

• footwarmer (an utterly neutral term for a paid companion of the opposite sex, who is willing to sleep with clients; usually sex is implied, but the term literally means to provide companionship in bed for the lonely, so they have a warm body to warm their feet against; increasingly, this term is applied to aging, less athletic and adventurous prostitutes)

• she-eel (a snarled near-curse, implying someone who teases, takes coin, and then slips away [or robs clients], OR an approving advertisement for someone very supple and willing to use her skills for adventurous sex or to increase the pleasure of clients)

• banner (a male prostitute)

• skilled-laces (a prostitute of satisfying skills and performance; the term refers, of course, to unlacing garments)

• darksail (someone who makes love for pay while masked, or with identity magically disguised; originally many elves and half-elves of Waterdeep used a “shiftmask” spell that covered their faces - - except for their eyes - - in amorphous darkness; this spell is sometimes cast for hire on wealthy wives and husbands who want to “cheat” at masked revels, so if their masks are torn off, their faces still can’t be seen; the spell can also be cast to cloak most of the body, so once garments are removed, the body can be felt more than it can be seen, an aid in concealing wrinkles, or identifying marks that betray identity)

• slyblade (prostitute who dresses as a man, to woo female clients or as protection against the disapproving or lawkeepers, when meeting male clients who know her true identity and profession very well, or are “tipped off” by prearrangement plus a card, message, or signal)

• catclaw (prostitute who likes rough sex or domination, or who will for coin try to seduce others, or act the role of a slave, spouse, conquered war-captive or former rival who is now a willing lover [in other words, benefit or enhance the status of a paying client by her acting, from wearing chains and willingly accepting abuse to pretending to have been smitten by the sexual prowess of the client)

• bell-ankles (a Southern term referring to the dying practice of wearing chiming bells on the ankles when dancing or lovemaking, as audible advertisements; this custom is dying out, but the phrase still sees popular use to mean prostitute willing to entertain “walk-in” clients)

• slapthighs (low-rate or coarse or willing-to-be-abused prostitute; the term is descriptive, NOT pejorative)

• smilecoin lass (polite term for a friendly, “nice” prostitute, especially one who will cook for, provide conversation for, and provide a bed for the night for, a client - - not just providing sex)

• goldglint darling (poetic or “overly polite” term for anyone who provides sex for payment)

• playpretty (a female paid for sex by soldiers or sailors)

• doxy (mistress or prostitute, especially applied to women who are the shared mistresses of a select roster of men)

• warmvelvet (a young, pretty or beautiful prostitute who likes to tease or act alluring or foster an air of mystery; in Silverymoon or Waterdeep, this also means a noble or wealthy young woman “playing” at being a prostitute for the thrills [or to see if she can use this as a “road away” from an unhappy home situation])

• chalice (a poetic or very polite term for a prostitute, based on the poetic reference to the female as either a cup that a male drinks from, or a vessel that receives his seed)

• glimmersheath (a strikingly beautiful prostitute, or a male crossdressing prostitute; in either case, the term refers to eyecatching beauty and willingly receiving the “dagger” of the male physique)

• gold tigress (a prostitute who likes to wrestle with or fight [to be “conquered”] clients, or to bite and claw them; a “tigress” without the word “gold” refers to a female who is not a prostitute but has similar sexual preferences]

I could go on and on and on, because the euphemisms are endless, but these given here are the most universally understood (even if some of them are used only regionally, travelling merchants have spread word of their meaning across Faerûn). If one adds insults and curses to modify these, an entire new roster of phrases opens up, but I’d rather leave those to the inventiveness of individual DMs so as not to upset too many scribes reading this thread.

So saith Ed.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Wooly, you might want to look of the word 'abstinence'.

It means any form of voluntary restraint on a desire, in this case sexual desire.

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Originally posted by Ozzalum

In thinking about this some more I would tend to think Sune would be opposed to prostitution under the category of "no sex except with romantically significant partners." I would also say any god with the "family" domain would not be too enamored of prostitution.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Of course you're right, though I think Wooly is addressing your use of the word (which is in a sexual context). I haven't seen any references to abstaining from drink, drugs, or halfling tea parties* anywhere so far in the thread, and your implied meaning is pretty clear in a long post suggesting what I think are excellent sects of particular deities that might practice (sexual) abstinence.

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Originally posted by Hellkeepa

Sharess, then Bast, came from another realm, and as such didn't know Sune in her mortal days. After the Times of Trouble she is now serving Sune, after she rescued Sharess from Shar's influence.

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Originally posted by Ozzalum


Is there any reason whatsoever to remain a virgin in the Realms? Unicorns? Or are they more progressive in the Realms too?

The reason I am interested in this topic, aside from a general interest in debauchery shared by all, is that I have a paladin of Selune I am writing about and apparently she is a freakish prude. Is there any reason I can give for her not putting out beyond some vague personal preference not too?

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

*Strictures on behavior: Yes, indeed, all faiths, by nature of being faiths, impose strictures on behavior in order to differentiate themselves from those around them. [...]

What I do *not* think is that any god in the Realms is likely to impose strict, complete, total abstinence from sexual activity. [...] Folk might choose that for their own reasons, but those reasons will not come from on-high, as it were.

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Originally posted by xaviera

People do strange things in the name of religion and I can see a charismatic priest, demagogue or visionary calling upon followers to forsake this, that or the other thing in order to focus on giving homage to their god.

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Originally posted by Ozzalum

You pulled rank on me there.

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I don't see how you can go on at length like you did and then say "if it works for you..." Obviously it doesn't work in this world. The default for ladylike behavior is to sleep around. I will have to come up with a Girdle of Monotheistic Morals before this will make any sense.

"Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity I could handle, I'm totally cool with that, but this sucks!"

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the default for ladylike behavior is to sleep around.

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Originally posted by xaviera

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People do strange things in the name of religion and I can see a charismatic priest, demagogue or visionary calling upon followers to forsake this, that or the other thing in order to focus on giving homage to their god.

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I think you have plenty of 'wiggle room' to set up any abstinent cult or sect that you like. It may not be popular, but it could exist!

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Originally posted by Icelander

To take a more Realmsian example, if a priestess of Selune makes a commitment to her goddess that involves abstaining from sexual activity except as part of religious ceremonies conducted under moonlight, that's a form of abstinence. Even though it does allow sex in certain circumstances.

Sexual activity is an important part of what makes us human. And because of that, managing to link it to ceremony or religious constraints is a powerful tool for deities and their clergies.

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