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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 17:48:05
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I loved the beginning of the book. The discussion of archetypes was near and dear to my heart. The alternative class features (especially the armored mage) are wonderful. I was at first thinking that with this armored mage out, the spellsword class would lose its use, but then I started thinking that those folk who start as rangers, paladins, clerics, etc.... will still be clamoring for mithril chain shirts... also, those who don't want to wear light armors.
>>I thought this myself when I first read the concept behind the reserve feats. I thought >>about weather low level spells would have any use, if any other feats might be worth while >>to take any more, and if these feasts replaced or made obsolete any other feats. While my >>gut reaction was yes, I started really thinking about what they do, and how they do it.
>>Granted, its great to be able to fling a 3d6 burst of fire every round, but it only affects >>a five foot square, and your opponent gets to save against it. That same firball that give >>you a five foot burst for 3d6 could be spent to blow up a 30 foot burst for 6d6 (minimum, >>with the CL boost from the feat). In all honesty, the reserve feats, depending on the level >>of spell that you keep from using to power them, are comparable to what you can do with, >>say scorching ray, which is only a second level spell. So as far as spells go, I don't >>think that it really throws anything damage wise out of whack.
Hmmm, my earlier comments from yesterday aren't here... weird. Oh well, I've had a little more time to digest sections of the book. I'm afraid, so far my worries are coming to light. I'll disagree here on reserve feats. For instance, does this invalidate some previous feats? For the most part, it puts the innate spell feat to shame. Granted that feat needed some work, but this is overkill.
Overall, this is the way I see it. Arcane casters got upset when they introduced the warlock class. So, they introduced these reserve feats as a way for wizards to do the same basic things with a feat. You know escalate the imbalance rather than fix the original problem. Its nice that the fire one gives a save for its possible 9d6 damage per round, but the sheer amount of damage is insane as a free ability. However, the save DC is set by the spell in storage, so its a pretty high save. Hell The storm bolt and winter's blast affect an area rather than a single square and don't even give a save. Invisible needle has its damage reduced to d4's because it has more utility, but its still nasty. Acidic splatter is single target, but its still 9d6. At least the clap of thunder requires a physical touch attack, but it tags on the ability to deafen someone (however, being that using this one is more dangerous to use and pretty much warns EVERYTHING that you're around... its the one that's more on the verge of balance). After all, with these around what mage is ever going to use his crossbow (oh well, creatures immune to my reserve feat, guess I'll have to use a real spell). The fixes for these as I see it are simple, cut the damage to half (rounded up even), so that keeping a 9th lvl spell lets you hurl a 5d6 or 5d4 effect. Then tag reflex saves on top of that to allow creatures to avoid damage. It still makes you feel like a mage, and performs its basic job. Of the other reserve feats, the only one that immediately jumps out at me as possibly abuseful is the summon elemental one, but that's only for the "send in fodder first to set off traps" reasoning.
I like most of the other reserve feats. The clutch of earth one would be wonderful for stopping rogues who control the battlefield through positioning. Mystic backlash sounds a tad dangerous until you read the part about it allowing a will save. Blade of force requires the character to get close and personal in combat just like clap of thunder, yet its only 1 pt per level of spell, not 1d6 per level of spell (and only applies to a single attack, even if the character is performing a full attack action). Wind-guided arrows... just beautiful for that mage who is using the crossbow. Shadow-veil, wonderful alternative to actually giving oneself concealment.
Next, I moved onto the prestige classes (and this is as far as I've gotten). Abjurant champion. Ok, if I'm in the eldritch knight prestige class, I meet all the requirements except combat casting.... which for a melee mage would only make sense. Yet, this class has 1d10 for hp and some nice extra abilities (whereas eldritch knight gives you nothing except a feat, but to get that feat you lose a level of spellcasting). Is it horridly overpowered? No, but it just shows that not much thought is being put into the balance issues since they even directly compare it to the other class. If a character were going to do eldritch knight all the way through, I see no reason why they wouldn't do 5 lvls of it then 5 lvls of this instead (or 9 levels of EldK, followed by 5 of AbjC)
Eldritch disciple and Eldritch Theurge... since mages got "warlock-like" abilities with the reserve feats, they must've felt like they needed to give warlocks something. I need to read over the invocation section of warlock again as these don't seem to put them far behind
their other abilities and tags in some unusual extras as well (unlike mystic theurge and cerebremancer which don't give any extra abilities along the way). By the way... where does the word Theurge and theurgist come from? I always believed it had something to do with "becoming one with god"... thus the Theurgist Adepts of Imaskar were trying to make themselves into gods, yet it seems in D&D we're turning it into "someone who studies arcane magic- and another discipline".
Without having done in-depth work with warlocks, the enlightened spirit prestige class seems like it could be ok.
Holy Scourge would seem a nice step for those paladins who went eldritch knight and/or spellsword.
The Lyric Thaumaturge is EXACTLY what the bard needs in my view... more spells to cast per day and a bit broader spell selection. This one is very well designed in my view.
The master specialist is also a very well designed class. It lets a wizard advance at the cost of 2 feats (but he does get greater spell focus to help make up for the loss), and it makes the specialist even more reflective of their school. Even better, it holds out on the best abilities till 10th lvl to keep the characters in the class, and doesn't put some ripe fruit at the first level so that people are allowed to just dip in and skim the best parts.
The nightmare spinner... well, this one puts the best abilities right at the beginning to make it easy for someone to dip in, take a single level, become effectively an illusion specialist without opposition schools, tag some other fine abilities and leave. All for the cost of some skill points in bluff, intimidate, and sense motive. Hmmmm, what's on a red wizard's skill list you ask? Bluff and intimidate? So, they have to cross-class a little sense motive to get a free illusion spell at every level? Oh, and arcane tricksters get a ton of skill points, right? Please, twist my arm harder.... of course, this is all fixed quite easily by just moving the "cherry" to the 3rd lvl in the prestige class and making someone make a commitment for it. They did it for all the base classes... they moved the really nice abilities to second level or higher to prevent this kind of thing (evasion, divine grace, etc..), so stick to the same basic rules with prestige classes.
Ultimate Magus. I really wanted to see a class "like" this which would let a character go up in multiple arcane paths. However, this one tags on a bunch of extra abilities. At least with mystic theurge you are giving up your wizardly feats. However, this class gives you the ability to pick 2 feats. Then it also tags on the ability to use spells from your other class to augment your spells with metamagic feats (this can get very nasty with things like persistence around). This class ability makes no sense why it would be specific to this class, as opposed to making a metamagic class (which would have been great for this book, btw).
The unseen seer is a great alternative to the arcane trickster for the person who wants sneak attack but doesn't want to put themselves several levels behind in casting in order to get it. The abilities it gives are wonderful even for those who only want the first few levels, yet at the same time the requirements are steep enough that you really have to think about it before entering it.
The Wild Soul is a wonderful option for bringing in the fey courts to your campaigns. Its got some nice options, but they aren't too overpowering. I could see a ton of these in Aglarond (where there is noted to be both Seelie and Unseelie sprites according to 2nd edition lore), and possibly even the Star Elves have ties to the fey courts.
That's as far as I've gotten for now. I'd love to hear other people's perspectives on these views |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 18:12:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Granted, its great to be able to fling a 3d6 burst of fire every round, but it only affects a five foot square, and your opponent gets to save against it. That same firball that give you a five foot burst for 3d6 could be spent to blow up a 30 foot burst for 6d6 (minimum, with the CL boost from the feat). In all honesty, the reserve feats, depending on the level of spell that you keep from using to power them, are comparable to what you can do with, say scorching ray, which is only a second level spell. So as far as spells go, I don't think that it really throws anything damage wise out of whack.
this is my point:
* the burst of energy can be done every round
* the burst usually is a touch attack or reflex save
* the burst is at least 2 dice of damage (using 1d4 or 1d6 usually)
this means that wizard basically has a melee attack that can inflict more damage than most melee weapons, and as long as they don't attack a creature with a high dexterity and/or with good reflex saves that spellcaster sould become just as potent as a fighter...
and that teleport one? sheesh  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 20 Oct 2006 18:14:26 |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 19:23:54
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| Kalin, you're just mad because they've finally published the secrets you use to whisk yourself to the hidden sections of the keep at all hours of the night. Its about time I had the chance to get into the Study of Ghyrnie Kess'h. I've been trying to read the scrolls containing the records of your great grandfather's chapbook for nearly a season! |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 19:43:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
Kalin, you're just mad because they've finally published the secrets you use to whisk yourself to the hidden sections of the keep at all hours of the night. Its about time I had the chance to get into the Study of Ghyrnie Kess'h. I've been trying to read the scrolls containing the records of your great grandfather's chapbook for nearly a season!
It gets me to Baldur's Gate pretty quickly too 
And you know as well as I if it wasn’t for those wards Alaundo laid onto those scrolls I would have “lost” them a long time ago!
So what if a few embarrassing facts were exposed in my great grandfather’s chapbook? And that matron made him a pariah of Waterhavan society? I think it is ironic as those Waterhaven Noble Families paid him good coin for that commission in the first place.
Can’t the memory of that poor man just be laid to rest? 
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 20:11:12
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| I think it was actually Tethtoril who cast that Resinous Tar spell into the bookshelves up there... only the absence of a trail of sticky fingerprints along the knocker let me know that you had jumped around using magic. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 20:14:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
I think it was actually Tethtoril who cast that Resinous Tar spell into the bookshelves up there... only the absence of a trail of sticky fingerprints along the knocker let me know that you had jumped around using magic.
that proves nothing...a simple unseen servant could have done the same |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2006 : 08:36:57
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| Kalin? Yer using teleport magic? Didn't know ye could do that. Silly human, ye could've told me earlier. Iw ouldn've needed to sneak...um...well...never ye mind! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 14:34:03
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you know Mace, it's kind of funny...I find this book in the north wing and it shows me that all I have to do is retain a strong teleport spell and I will be able to "hop" all over the place 
You have no idea how easy it is now to circumvent obsticles, traps, doors...
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 15:32:28
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| Durned human, ye knew I was in trouble that one time in, you know, that...errr... festhall in Waterdeep, and you bailed on me while that mob chased me through the dock ward! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36966 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 15:33:56
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| I think we've strayed from the original topic... Let's find our way back, shall we? |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 16:18:17
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Sleyvas:
I agree that the reserve feats may make some other feats look pretty paltry by comparison, but at the same time, it seems like we have a lot of feats that seem to be less effective than more recent feats. Toughness is +3 hit points, Improved Toughness, which doesn't require toughness as a prerequisite, gives you +1 hit point per level, which once you get 4th level or higher is obviously a better choice.
I am likely to try to these feats as is in a campaign to see how they work. I'm not so set in my ways that I would say that I know they are balanced and wouldn't cause any problems. I just tend to let things go the first time through and make notes on this.
While I'm not doing this right off the bat, a few things that I was thinking of was even just making the damage 1 hit dice less than the reserve spell, and also perhaps introducing a concentration check to be able to use the feat (logic wise, I picture reserve feats drawing off the "ambient magic" that surrounds the partially cast spell, thus the spellcaster would have to tap into that "reserve" to call forth a degree of power).
I liked the Wild Soul and Unseen Seer as well. Since I'm not as versed in Warlock lore as I am other acane casters, I'll admit I can't do a whole lot of analysis of these PrCs either.
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 09:28:04
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I picked up this book. Found out that like most supplement books there are things that I love and things I definitely dislike.
What I loved;
Class Variants (Divine Magician is pretty neat)
Half of the feats (see below)
Abjurant Champion (I like playing Fighter/Mages)
What I didn't like;
The entire 1st chapter (terrible advice, especially on what prohibted schools to choose)
Reserve Feats (they are trying to take away the rest mechanic in D&D, a bad sign to me)
The continuation of the "Polymorph" subchool (c'mon WoTC, it's too late for "oops, we messed up with poly/shapechange, let's add another new subschool in bits and pieces over the next dozen or so books. Most DM's have houseruled the spell anyway) |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 16:13:52
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Well, if most DM's have houseruled the spell anyway, I don´t see any problem if the WoTC want to houseruled the spell, too.
If the DMs can do something about a problem, why the WoTC cannot do something, too? |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:29:20
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I don't think the polymorph problem can truly be fixed until the new edition (and before anyone asks, I have absolutely no knowledge or heads up that this is coming any time soon, nor do I really want it at the moment :) I have my inner debates about reserve feats, but I do wonder if they will actually really break any games. By the time you get to the point where you're doing 9d6 with a small burst of fire, you could use make much better use of a maximized delayed blast fireball. The same goes for most of the them. The 9th level, necromancy, bigby's, or other spell a wizard (or other caster) is holding back to keep this reserve feat going is almost always more powerful than the reserve feat. I think the reserve feats that let you do nifty minor arcana like teleporting unattended objects to your hand, short dimension doors, and similar effects are great. They're just the sort of flavor that makes wizards more fun, but without really unbalancing the game. I know people are worried about the various reusable energy blasts, but most wizards will probably need to eventually sacrifice the highest slots they reserve if a battle is truly taxing.
I also don't think the feats step on the toes of warlocks - one of my personal favorites of the new core classes. Not only can a warlock use one of the PrCs that advances both invocations and spells, allowing him to use reserve reserve feats to gain a few more reusable spell like abilities - to supplement his existing ones. Most invocations are more powerful and more versatile than reserve feats, and without requiring you to lose anything in the process.
I can completely understand DMs not wanting to use these. For the most part, I allow pretty much all the material in the various books, with a few very small exceptions. I can run whatever type of game players want to play. If there characters are powerful, their enemies are smart. If the characters are more typical, I tend to focus more on personal stories, intrigue, and the like, though I always try to use these. I don't fault any DM for using or not using material. It's all optional, even the material printing in the core 3 books. That said, I think that people can easily allow most things, but still running the kind of game they want. It just takes some flexibility and a good grasp of what the rules do. I know that as a game designer, I have the luxury and resources to learn all of the new mechanics, but many people don't. Most people do not have the time or inclination to do this. If anyone ever has trouble with one or have a question, feel free to ask me about them. I'm happy to help. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 20:46:48
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| I've just acquired the book, with every book released the balance shifts to more power, though the book is cool, it seems to me that something that unique and new (concerning game mechanics) hasn't been released in years. Well done |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 03:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Well, if most DM's have houseruled the spell anyway, I don´t see any problem if the WoTC want to houseruled the spell, too.
If the DMs can do something about a problem, why the WoTC cannot do something, too?
I don't like it because I believe it's a waste of space. No one buys a purely supplemental book like Complete Mage without being somewhat familiar with out broken polymorph is and having houseruled it themselves. Save the house rules for Dragon/Dungeon Magazine and Unearthed Arcana 2. (if they ever come out with one)
I also don't like having to buy every new book just for a few more polymorph school spells. Which is why I agree that it's going to need an entire new edition. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 28 Oct 2006 03:08:24 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 00:43:49
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Just looking through this, something jumped out at me. I was never really happy with the Simbul being a Sorcerer 20/Wizard 10/Archmage 2, because it really seemed to hose her ability to cast spells, and meant that all of her high levels spells were accessed through her sorcerer abilities, meaning that they were more "intuitive" than learned, and making it harder to picture her writing some of the spells that she has.
If you make her a Sorcerer 10/Wizard 10/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 2, and you advance her wizard levels with her archmage class, then she actually has a sorcerer CL of 20 and a wizard CL of 19, which means that both of her arcane classes allow her access to ninth level spells, thus eliminating the whole need to even argue if sorcerers can write spells (not that I want to rehash that). It also goes back to making her a formidable spell dueler instead of giving her a class that only detracts from her ability to bring high level spells to bear.
Just something I noticed. I'm not big into crunching up important NPCs, but at the same time, I do like to speculate on things like this, if only for internal consistancy. Plus, you don't have to mess with that whole silly "she relearns new spells by casting Wish" convention.
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 03 Nov 2006 00:45:22 |
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 04:38:07
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| The Simbul was the first thing that came to mind when I saw that class. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2006 : 23:57:42
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| I agree, re-doing the Simbul as an Ultimate Magus sounds good to me. Then again, all PCs usually have to know is that she's mind-numbingly powerful and no one to p!$$ off... |
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Complete Mage
