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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 02:47:40
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Hey there! 
Im looking for any information whatsoever on the old Dwarven Kingdom/Nation of Sarphil. Ive had a look using the search feature here, not come up with much. Looked in the Grand History of the Realms, and Lost Empires too.
Basically.. any suggestions for other places to look would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. 
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 14:51:41
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| I think it stretched under most of Eastern Cormanthor, Sembia and The Moon Sea... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2006 : 15:29:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Is that near Cormanthor?
Sarphil was said to have encompassed the eastern end of the Moonsea, to the mountains running north to Glister.
We also know that due to Sarphil's continuing problems with orcs and elven resistance to their expanding borders, the dwarves of Sarphil were forced to tunnel under what would eventually become Mulmaster.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 06:39:24
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>Dalor Casts Rez Scroll<
Reading up a bit on this kingdom I discovered that some 16,000 dwarves still live in the Dragonspine Mountains that are the generations of this particular Dwarf Kingdom.
My question is: after the publication of Dwarves Deep...was there any further news of what happened to this rather large number of dwarves that live right in the middle of the Dragonspines? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 07:28:36
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Aren't they the dwarves that helped Alusair (and Azoun) during the Crusade?
Just checked, they were referred to as the Earthfast Dwarves in that series. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jul 2010 07:35:49 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 07:32:39
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| I thought those were dwarves from the Stormhorns? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 07:35:26
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LOL - I just edited my above post.
It appears they were either southern neighbors of that kingdom, or part of the same kingdom, but a 'last remnant' perhaps. Alusair and/or the dwarven king make a point of mentioning their dwindling numbers due to the Orcs.
Despite there canonically being dwarves in both the Stormhorns and Thunderpeaks, neither group is ever really mentioned in regards to Cormyr. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jul 2010 07:39:49 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 08:18:31
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Confusing to me too...you would think that Azoun himself would have tried hard to gain them as strong allies at the least; if not outright subjects!
As for the Dwarves of the Dragonspine Mountains...16,000 of them!!!...I wonder why they don't have a greater impact on goings on in the area...I mean, even if only a quarter of them are warriors, that is 4,000 dwarves! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 08:25:15
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Spread through-out a range the size of the Earthfast, Earthspur, and Galenas, thats a very small number indeed. If the Earthfast dwarves are that 'last remnant' of Sarphil, then I would also assume that they have been pushed almost completely out of the two northern ranges.
However, they have massive tunnel-complexes that still exist, and I believe there is one tunnel in particular that connects Vassa with the Moonsea.
I think those dwarves are fighting a losing battle of attrition - Orcs simply breed faster. That alone is why they are not having a bigger impact - the Crusade novel states that they spend all their time fighting and defending their homes.
About the Stormhorn dwarves - I have my theories there, and if I can manage to form them into something cohesive I will share it.
The Thunderpeaks dwarves are not really a prominent group any more - their power was shattered when 'the Evil' took over Thunderholme. I would guess most of the survivors are living on the surface of those mountains, in small remote villages, rather then inside (avoiding 'the curse'). I would also assume the vast majority of them live in the smaller part of the range, north of the Thundergap (and therefore outside of Cormyr).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jul 2010 08:33:55 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 08:33:28
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Dwarves Deep specifically states that there are 16k Dwarves in the Dragonspine Mountains alone...and that range isn't all that large with one end laying in the Border Forest and the other on the verges of the lands of Thar.
Those in the area of Vaasa are a different bunch all together. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 08:37:58
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But Sarphil was east of Cormanthor.  
The Dwarves in the Dragonspine I would think were from Tethyamar, which was part of the dwarven kingdom of Oghrann.
It specifically states that they are the last of the Kingdom of Sarphil? Interesting...
Looking at the maps, and seeing who's 'topside', I would say that is a clan that has 'gone deep', and doesn't bother with the surface anymore. Just checked Underdark and they don't appear to have any neighbors around there - the whole upper-dark is theirs in that region. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jul 2010 08:45:01 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 18:44:54
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Ahhhhh...that would make sense. If they don't have any enemies about, why go to the surface and make some!
Yeah, I was a little confused at why they are declared the descendants of Sarphil too...the geography is WAY off.
I also thought it would make more sense that they were from Tethyamar; but THOSE Dwarves are said to live south of Tethyamar instead in the environs of Cormyr and thereabouts. Mysteriously, Tethyamar isn't really touched on a great deal in Dwarves Deep...I was confused about that.
EDIT: just so everyone knows, I'm digging around about the area because I'm considering starting on that "The Ride" article. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 17 Jul 2010 18:45:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 19:14:36
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Considering the size of Sarphil, one could say that the descendants live in small pockets in several places, and both the Earthfast and Dragonspine dwarves are 'survivor states'.
Not sure about Thunderholme - don't know enough about it. If it was connected to either Oghrann (tunlands) or Sarphil, my guess would be Oghrann. It could have been a survivor state of that nation, because the rest of the survivors all seem to be struggling under some sort of curse as well (both the Tunland and Lost vale dwarves are considered 'degenerate' by Dwarven standards).
On the other hand, I think it works best as a third, separate kingdom. It doesn't appear that dwarves did very well in the eastern Heartlands, which is odd, considering the drow are far less active on that side of the Anauroch. Of course, those two facts could be connected - some ancient 'unknown war' humans aren't privy to, beneath Cormanthor. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Aug 2010 02:25:46 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2010 : 19:24:02
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| Well, the Cormanthor elves are actually the reason for the initial decline of Sarphil...they took offense at the Dwarves of Clan Hillsafar digging around "their" woods I guess. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 16:39:12
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| I included a dwarven background tied to Sarphil in Realmslore: Vaasa. This 'Vault-Warden of the Lost Ways' traces its ancestry to Clan Namarforge, ruling house of ancient Sarphil. 'Lost Sarphil' is also marked on the included regional map. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 16:43:35
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Alas, I have no access to that particular article. I'm sure it is awesome; I just don't like getting locked into dues.
EDIT: I'll be paying for a month of DDI just to catch up on some lore I suppose...may the flees of a thousand camels infest the loins of any who deride my choice! After all, I blame Brian R. James for this!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 03 Aug 2010 19:01:43 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 19:06:54
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On a different note, while doing research on Sarphil, I've found a curious oddity.
-4400 DR
The Dark Court Slaughter
I had never had mention, until reading TGHoTR that Drow and Duergar had caused the downfall of Sarphil. I had thought that there was a war between the elves of Cormanthyr and Sarphil over the delvings of Clan Hillsafar.
Can anyone clarify this for me? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2010 : 19:52:06
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The Dark Court Slaughter was when the Drow and Durger attacked a feast held by the Elves of The Elven Court for the Dwarves of Saraphil. Since the Feast was essentially the opening of discussions to releave the problems that the Elven Court and Saraphil had been having (I wouldn't classify it as a war, more like some minor skirmishes, many of which were actually set-up by the drow/duerger alliance).
Neither the Dwarves nor the Elves were armed, when the Drow and Duierger crashed the party, as you might imagine, casualties were high, especially among the dwarven and elven leadership. The elven mages eventually turned the tide with their magic, defended by dwarves using platters as shields and weilding carving knives and toasting forks.
Meanwhile, the duerger were also attacking the halls of Saraphil proper. As well, the Drow infested all of the temples in the Elven court with spiders and evil magic. The attack signaled the downfall of Saraphil and the diasporia of the dwarves across the Moonsea North and the Galeanas. It also ended elven control of the Elven Court until near the end of the war that demolished Myth Drannor.
I also had the Brightblade clan of dwarves who currently live in Daggerdale originate in this diasporia. Somewhere in my files, I make have some non-canon lore about how the flight from Saraphil led to an interesting wedding tradition among the Brightblades. I'll have to add it to my list of things to find. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
Edited by - Halidan on 04 Aug 2010 20:10:23 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2019 : 16:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
The Dark Court Slaughter was when the Drow and Durger attacked a feast held by the Elves of The Elven Court for the Dwarves of Saraphil. Since the Feast was essentially the opening of discussions to releave the problems that the Elven Court and Saraphil had been having (I wouldn't classify it as a war, more like some minor skirmishes, many of which were actually set-up by the drow/duerger alliance).
Neither the Dwarves nor the Elves were armed, when the Drow and Duierger crashed the party, as you might imagine, casualties were high, especially among the dwarven and elven leadership. The elven mages eventually turned the tide with their magic, defended by dwarves using platters as shields and weilding carving knives and toasting forks.
Meanwhile, the duerger were also attacking the halls of Saraphil proper. As well, the Drow infested all of the temples in the Elven court with spiders and evil magic. The attack signaled the downfall of Saraphil and the diasporia of the dwarves across the Moonsea North and the Galeanas. It also ended elven control of the Elven Court until near the end of the war that demolished Myth Drannor.
I also had the Brightblade clan of dwarves who currently live in Daggerdale originate in this diasporia. Somewhere in my files, I make have some non-canon lore about how the flight from Saraphil led to an interesting wedding tradition among the Brightblades. I'll have to add it to my list of things to find.
<REZ SCROLL.
Is this your personal information Halidan (hope you are still about) or can you quote a reference? I like the idea of it a great deal; just wondering if it is canon and from where.
Thanks so much! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2019 : 01:07:57
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All that information save for the Brightblade clan note at the end is canon. The original source is FR11 Dwarves Deep and the Dark Court Slaughter information is from the Cormanthyr sourcebook.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2019 : 16:28:15
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| Thank you so much! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 03:19:34
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I think a serious mistake was made now that I'm reading all the sources.
I don't think there was an intent for there to be 16,000 dwarves in the Dragonspine Mountains...
I think the intent was for them to be in the mountains between Thar and Vaasa.
I'm going to run with them being in the Dragonspine Mountains though. The adventuring brotherhood called "The Axe by Night" is said to specifically avoid leading Zhentarim or Orc patrols to the hidden holds that they service there.
That is a lot of frickin' dwarves though...seeing as how Oghrann at its height only had about 26,000 dwarves.
So many dwarves, if united, could found a very strong realm. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 08:39:36
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I think the write-up in FR11 makes it very clear why they are not united.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 12:49:57
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There are dwarves of Sarphil in Galena mountains mainly around eastern parts. Others are in Dragonspine mountains. I like the idea that Brightblade clan is from Sarphil as well. It make sense that dwarves of Earthfast and Earthspur mountains are also of Sarphil descent linking them also to shortlived realm of Roldilar in Vast.
Tethyamar dwarves are clearly stated as of Oghrann origin and to say the truth I never understood what happened to Oghrann... they were there and suddenly they were not... it almost seems they dug too deep. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 14:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think the write-up in FR11 makes it very clear why they are not united.
-- George Krashos
Maybe I'm not seeing what you are...could you elaborate a bit? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 19:10:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think a serious mistake was made now that I'm reading all the sources.
I don't think there was an intent for there to be 16,000 dwarves in the Dragonspine Mountains...
I think the intent was for them to be in the mountains between Thar and Vaasa.
I'm going to run with them being in the Dragonspine Mountains though. The adventuring brotherhood called "The Axe by Night" is said to specifically avoid leading Zhentarim or Orc patrols to the hidden holds that they service there.
That is a lot of frickin' dwarves though...seeing as how Oghrann at its height only had about 26,000 dwarves.
So many dwarves, if united, could found a very strong realm.
Hey, just answering without even looking up about Sarphil or Oghrann (both ring bells in the back of my head, but that's about it). My question is though, why is it that 16,000 dwarves is considered a large number? I mean, that might be a decent sized village or city, but its not screaming anything amazing to me. I am saying that with the thought that seeing cities in FR with populations of 40,000 isn't uncommon or anything, and many of the major metropolises exceed 100,000. Granted, that's humans, but... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 20:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think the write-up in FR11 makes it very clear why they are not united.
-- George Krashos
Maybe I'm not seeing what you are...could you elaborate a bit?
"Many dwarves, perhaps 16,000 in all, still dwell in the Dragonspines today, hidden away in small, isolated caverns and high holds among the peaks. They have no king nor organization beyond clans and families, and do not trust each other enough to do more than trade." (FR11, p.60)
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2019 : 21:42:48
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| I remembered that; I only thought there was a reason they didn’t trust each other that I had missed. Thanks for your time Krash |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Sarphil
