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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 15:12:33
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Has any one converted the 2nd level spell Mantle or Spell Mantle into 3.5 edition? I do not have access to the 2nd edition source for the mantle spell and I want an upgraded version for my elven mage. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
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Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 17:33:04
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I'd recommend against converting that spell. That was one of the weaknesses of 2nd edition near the end was everything was capable of being done "as a spell", as opposed to being done as, say, a class ability or a feat in 3rd edition. Thus, everyone could do everything. With the feat requirements, this strengthens the need for mages to only have certain tricks in their hats, so to speak.
However, there are some pre-made options which could be spell mantle "like". For instance, soulcasters from Magic of Incarnum. I want to talk more on this later, but need to do some research.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 19:27:40
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An excellent point Sleyvas. I agree that it could be a class ability or feat. That is the strength of 3.0-3.5 edition. Diverse conditions for different abilities. Some you pick, others you inherit from higher levels. But here would be my problem. I like just being a wizard. I am planning on take 20 levels of wizard and then doing the archmage PrC. Now I like the idea of a elven oriented wizard. Maybe instead of the level 10 metamagic feat for wizards, that metamagic feat could be for the elven spell mantle. Or just use each metamagic feat slot as an upgrade to the spell mantle. For example, Elven wizard bonus feat progression becomes the following instead:
5th level-Lesser Mantle, maybe something like a constant lesser globe of invulnerability
10th level-constant mage armor and protection from evil
I dunno. Just some ideas.   |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 23:41:02
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That's a VERY good idea! I really like that. I agree, it does suck that to get some abilities you have to multi-class. I hadn't really looked into the "alternate class progressions" much, but this really bears some interesting fruit. I'd like to see this done for the various major races of the realms who would advance magic differently. That would seem to be a great path for the elven casters (spell mantles). Similarly, perhaps they develop some kind of path towards using counterspelling more (like maybe being able to counterspell as an immediate action once/day or somesuch).
I can see dwarves getting armor wearing abilities like a warmage/bard (light armor only and never advancing without taking appropriate feats). Perhaps they end up picking up the ability to do rune magic as arcane ability rather than divine.
What'd be some other races who would have a non-standard wizardly progression (genuinely a different focus on magic in its entirety)? I can see gnomes being able to change out for something illusory, but nothing really jumps out at me.
Although not a PC race, I don't see Phaerimm developing bonds with familiars. Perhaps instead, they develop more of a skill focus in the art of spellcraft. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 14:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Has any one converted the 2nd level spell Mantle or Spell Mantle into 3.5 edition? I do not have access to the 2nd edition source for the mantle spell and I want an upgraded version for my elven mage. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
where is the 2nd level spell Mantle or Spell Mantle?
Do you mean the spell mantle that is in the 2E Magister Book? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 14:15:22
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A good idea, indeed. I think that develop spell mantles as wizard substitution levels for faerunian elves could be a good idea.
Now, it´s time to go to the desk, and try something...  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2006 : 03:40:20
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Kalin, I believe that is the spell I am talking about.
Sleyvas and CoMoradin I would love to see if you have put anything together. The racial based magic abilities instead of bonus feats for wizards would be a great optional rule. I like the counterspell comment for elves. For Humans maybe they have a bonus item creation ability and spell power. I dunno. This idea is so cool and new that it is hard not to go and ruin it with a silly suggestion. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 18:43:22
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quote:
I'd recommend against converting that spell. That was one of the weaknesses of 2nd edition near the end was everything was capable of being done "as a spell", as opposed to being done as, say, a class ability or a feat in 3rd edition. Thus, everyone could do everything. With the feat requirements, this strengthens the need for mages to only have certain tricks in their hats, so to speak.
Oddly enough, that's one of the thinks I preferred about 2E. I am sort of sick of all of these new super-specialized Feats, PrCs, and 20-level classes that do things that a standard well-researched wizard could duplicate, given time and resources. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 23:53:17
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>>Oddly enough, that's one of the thinks I preferred about 2E. I am sort of sick of all of >>these new super-specialized Feats, PrCs, and 20-level classes that do things that a >>standard well-researched wizard could duplicate, given time and resources.
Aye, I enjoyed it much too, but there comes a point where a person is running about with numerous contingent affects, numerous specialized wardings, etc.... wizards quite simply became unkillable for the average fighter. At least now, without them being able to do every trick under the sun, they're limited. This is especially seen at the extreme levels, where a lvl 20 mage and a lvl 30 mage are ALMOST on a similar footing (whereas in 2nd edition that 30th lvl caster would have just had TONS of extra spells to play with). Of course, there was a limiting factor in 2nd edition (that I know of noone who really used) that it took forever to memorize spells, so that 30th lvl mage would theoretically need to spend days to memorize his full spell roster (unless of course, one used magics to restore the wardings after they were cast). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 01:49:47
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See, to me, in previous editions, the level discrepencies seemed much less significant, because there was no such thing as caster level checks, and a level 18 Wizard wasn't really any different than a level 25 Wizard except in two ways:
A) The latter would have access to rules in the High Level Campaigns book. But that was very specifically an OPTIONAL book, and it was printed towards the very end of 2E.
B) The latter Wizard would get more spells. But, really, two Mages going at a spellduel aren't likely to win or lose due to the number of their spells, but rather their potency and use of the ones that they have.
As to your average Fighter being able to kill a Wizard? After 10th level, I'd say it gets increasingly unlikely. One look at the high-level NPCs of Faerun confirms this fact, in Faerun at least, as do the writings of Ed Greenwood. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 02:28:57
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| Sleyvas, you think of any new ideas for the afore mentioned concept of racial wizard abilities? I'm on the edge of my seat! Only an innovative magician like you could truly bring the ideas that make wizards oh so deadly and prestigious. Plus I'm looking to detail my wizard a bit more. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 18:08:18
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lol, thanks for the buttering up. Let me think "out loud" and I'll try more later. Wizards... elves.... wizards get familiars.... elves like animals... ok, maybe the elves get some kind of enhancements to their familiars to protect them or become more in tune with them, or perhaps they get better bonuses from them, or maybe they automatically get improved familiar (don't like this option much, but). What to give up? Why free scribe scroll, of course.
Or instead,
1st lvl - give up scribe scroll, get improved counterspell instead
5th lvl - give up bonus feat, get reactive counterspell (even without having improved init)
10th lvl - give up bonus feat, get some variation of the spell mantle ability (this would need development)
15th lvl - give up bonus feat, get Mastery of Counterspelling exactly as written for an archmage (including permanently giving up a 7th lvl spell slot) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2006 : 08:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Has any one converted the 2nd level spell Mantle or Spell Mantle into 3.5 edition?
I tried once at the beginning of my 3E Realms campaign....with little success. Mine was too complicated and didn’t appeal to my players when they found it as treasure.
Since then I’ve toyed with other ideas, like giving up a 9th level slot to ‘start’ the Mantle and paying XP to hang spells as desired.
FWIW Lost Empires of Faerûn talks briefly about Spell Mantles in a sidebar on page 112 of that tome. One must now learn the Spell Mantle feat, have access to the Craft Contingent Spell feat and the appropriate ranks in Knowledge Arcana and History. The feat allows you to trigger any contingent spell as a standard action, in addition to the normal conditions under which it might activate.
J. Grenemyer
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2006 : 12:31:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Has any one converted the 2nd level spell Mantle or Spell Mantle into 3.5 edition?
I tried once at the beginning of my 3E Realms campaign....with little success. Mine was too complicated and didn’t appeal to my players when they found it as treasure.
Since then I’ve toyed with other ideas, like giving up a 9th level slot to ‘start’ the Mantle and paying XP to hang spells as desired.
FWIW Lost Empires of Faerûn talks briefly about Spell Mantles in a sidebar on page 112 of that tome. One must now learn the Spell Mantle feat, have access to the Craft Contingent Spell feat and the appropriate ranks in Knowledge Arcana and History. The feat allows you to trigger any contingent spell as a standard action, in addition to the normal conditions under which it might activate.
J. Grenemyer
I'll research the info you referenced Shanishiver, but... I think, Mystra be praised, Sleyvas has done it again! Of course the whole mantle concept needs further development but I am loving the detailed ability progression you wrote up. It just screams elf! Being that Elves tend to be more responsible with their magic on a whole it fits that they would attempt to stop fell magic from being cast. Thus Sleyvas ability progression chart. Furthermore if the spell mantle ability can have a balance spell defense without being too powerful (and maybe even becoming stronger with exp) then the elven mage is detailed in such a way as to embody the Tel'Quessir way. (Of course The Loremasters Schend, Greenwood, and Baker would be best to decide the above for I am but a mere scribe.) But as an optional rule I think this has merit. Sleyvas, I shall post my mantle concept in a few hours and let every one have a good look of it. Of course I would like feed back too. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2006 : 14:34:32
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OK, Lemme know what you all think.  
Basic focus of Spell Mantle
The Elven wizard Spell Mantle is always active, protecting the wizard from spells and spell-like abilities in the form a +2 (resistance) save shaped like an orb shield surrounding only the wizard that blocks attempts to possess or exercise mental control (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects, such as dominate person) on the wizard. Allies of the wizard cannot be shielded by the Spell Mantle. The Spell Mantle shield moves with the wizard even if he uses a dimension door like effect, etc. This special ability is based on a revised Protection from Evil spell. The difference between the two is that the Spell Mantle adds the save bonus vs. all offensive effects that target the Elven wizard, not just evil effects. There is no +2 armor class bonus and no protection from summoned creatures provided by the Spell Mantle as stated in the Protection from Evil spell; however, if a summoned creature uses magic or a spell-like ability against the Elven wizard the +2 save bonus vs these effects does apply. The mental and possession protections are based on the natural enchantment resistance that elves have and the Elven +2 bonus vs. enchantment spells does not stack with the Spell Mantle bonus. But in cases where the Spell Mantle cannot protect against an enchantment effect that the natural Elven trait could then the +2 bonus applies (just not through the Spell Mantle).
Still being considered…
-The Spell Mantle protects on any plane of existence unless of course the plane of existence specifically states that magic is negated or something to that extent.
-The Evasion ability is added to the Spell Mantle description.
-+2 spell and spell-like ability continues to improve to +4 at 15th level and +6 at 20th level.
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Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 15:13:01
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<<FWIW Lost Empires of Faerûn talks briefly about Spell Mantles in a sidebar on page 112 of >>that tome. One must now learn the Spell Mantle feat, have access to the Craft Contingent >>Spell feat and the appropriate ranks in Knowledge Arcana and History. The feat allows you >>to trigger any contingent spell as a standard action, in addition to the normal conditions >>under which it might activate.
Thank you VERY much. I wanted to say somewhere they had started to address this. And what a beauty of a feat it is! This truly is a good means to work in contingent effects. Having a mage take the feat that lets them reduce the price on item creation feats as well, and taking the epic version of that price reducer (I believe there is one) would make for a very viable "mantle wearer". Whoa be to him when someone casts a disjoining type spell, or one which makes all latent spells burst at once.
I also strongly like the fact that the spell mantle feat lets the creator change the conditions for contingent spells cast on HIM. After all, someone who takes craft contingent spell and places fireballs into swarms of undead rats (or paper golems from the recent dragon mags), would be very dangerous if he could also release said spell whenever he wanted. Of course, that's not saying said person still can't be dangerous <g>.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 15:18:40
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| I was thinking about what I created, and decided to look more into the changing class abilities thing. I forgot that with this sort of thing, its NOT all or nothing. Therefore, doing the progression I laid out wouldn't (especially with the 15th level ability) be a good thing. This would be a nice "elven spelldueler" class (i.e. not wizard), but wouldn't make for a good replacement of class abilities thing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2006 : 21:28:51
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| Sleyvas I think you may be right. I'll have to check out this Lost Empires reference. I keep forgetting to. :( |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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2nd edition spell conversion
