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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 21:16:17
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Okay quick question i have read about helm horrors, and i had a question about how you make them. I saw the stats concerning the monster in the monsters of Faerun. But i have to say i thought that the mages of Cormyr and other places used them like a golem, and i was wondering how they made them. Or if they have lesser golems that can be created at lower levels.
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"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 21:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by VonRaventheDaring
Okay quick question i have read about helm horrors, and i had a question about how you make them. I saw the stats concerning the monster in the monsters of Faerun. But i have to say i thought that the mages of Cormyr and other places used them like a golem, and i was wondering how they made them. Or if they have lesser golems that can be created at lower levels.
If I remember right:
in 2E they were more like a golem...a suit of animated armour, a lesser construct if you will...
in 3E they have become more sinister, with having to use someone's soul to power the horror...thus more than just a golem...tahts why it takes a much higher crafter to make a helmed horror...
I do have though a really vague memory about a soul being used to construct a helmed horror in 2E...but I think that was the battle horror...but I may be wrong...
but it does bring up the question how third person (good and evil) has a helmed horror if it enslaves a soul... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 16:39:26
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Yes i can see your point you don't happen to know the source for the 2E helm horror do ye? Anyway i see you point and i would wonder if they are powered by a soul wouldn't they have the option to gain free will or something? To be honest and i appologies in advance for the horrible word i must say they remind me of the WarForged from E ah i can't say the word i applogize. Perhaps that is where the creater of that world came up with the idea. |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 17:11:03
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| The helmed horror and battle horrors were both written up in the Monstrous Compendium entries in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set. The description says nothing about using someone's soul. In fact, it's silent on where the intelligence comes from -- it just says they're magically animated and held together. |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 17:36:14
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| thanks Wooly! maybe someone should just make up some stuff for a Armor golem or something..... |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 22:48:20
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Well, in my opinion you can invent what is the minimum CL to create Helmed Horror. It haves no complete magic immunity but it can have immunity to three 3lvl or less spells and most place Fireball, Magic Missile and Lighting Bolt as the spell immunities (the most common form of magicall attacks).
So, you would need at least 5lvl to able add the 3lvl immunity and when consider other golem creation CL...I would say around 7-10lvl being approriate. But spells would be likely be animate object + the spells what it is immune at + spell immunity (or globe of invulrenabillity). |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 23:45:42
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| Thanks, btw though this is just a post to make it my 100th post Wooohooo!!!!! okay i feel better know!:D |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 05:57:48
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| One thing to note when it comes to the spell immunities of a helmed horror. Sure, its useful to have it protected against the common damage dealing spells. However, its also interesting to have them immune to various common wards, such as glyph of warding, so that they can set off traps for the wizard without damaging the party. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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stormcrow1618
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 17:42:12
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quote:
but it does bring up the question how third person (good and evil) has a helmed horror if it enslaves a soul...
If I understand the question you are posing here, I would imagine that the act of creating a helmed horror would be morally neutral, even if the construct's mobility and intelligence are provided by a soul. I would not consider the act evil if the being relinquished their spirit of their own free will. Of course, stealing a soul to complete construction would inherently be an evil act, but in that case, the act of construction itself would not be evil, only the theft of the soul. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 17:49:53
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| Where is this lore that states a soul is involved? I know it wasn't the original 2E write-up... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 18:20:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is this lore that states a soul is involved? I know it wasn't the original 2E write-up...
I think they are thinking of the variant helmed horror called the dread horror that is in Lost Empires, that one involves a soul while the helmed horror, as far as I know, does not..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 23:55:58
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Both the Helmed Horror and the Battle Horror are mentioned in Lost Empires (pg 175 - 177) they are described as: 'deadly self-willed magical constructs' it doesn't as far as I can see expressivly mention a soul, although the Battle Horror is described as being made by: 'binding an evil elemental spirit into a helmed horror during its creation'
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 08:29:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where is this lore that states a soul is involved? I know it wasn't the original 2E write-up...
Bane's heading in Faiths and Avatars (p. 40) lists the spell The Doom of Bane. The spell description lists: "This spell transforms the corpse or partial remains of a single upright bipedal creature of any race into the animate force of a helmed horror." and, a paragraph further down the line "The remains need not be whole and are consumed in the casting, but they must be the remains of a creature that was of evil alignment for at least part of its life or the spell has no effect. The doom of Bane destroys the remains forever, preventing resurrection, animation as an undead creature, speak with dead, and similar activities from affecting them. A helmed horror is not regarded as an undead creature, however."
As I read the spell description, the corpse only provides an animating force, but not the intelligence or the skills, since the "animus" picks up the skills to use the armor from whatever lucky volunteer is wearing it at the time of the casting. It does not explicitly mention that the corpse's soul is involved, but the description can be read in such a way. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 12:36:27
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This reads to me as an alternative method of creating the horrors. The soul could be an alternative to some sort of sacrifice usually given in the creation of Helmet Horrors. I checked the 2ed version and it says there that the process of creating Horrors are a secret, so in theory they all demand a soul or spirit-binding of sorts.
Wasn't the Horrors original one of Eds creatures? Not to give the man any more work, but we could ask him. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 14:24:04
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quote:
Originally posted by ThauramarthAs I read the spell description, the corpse only provides an animating force, but not the intelligence or the skills, since the "animus" picks up the skills to use the armor from whatever lucky volunteer is wearing it at the time of the casting. It does not explicitly mention that the corpse's soul is involved, but the description can be read in such a way.
in the 3.0 Monsters of Fearun (? can't remember real name) it says something like it takes a 18 Lv + evil wizard to construct a helmed horror...that tells me that it is more than just an animating force
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
This reads to me as an alternative method of creating the horrors. The soul could be an alternative to some sort of sacrifice usually given in the creation of Helmet Horrors. I checked the 2ed version and it says there that the process of creating Horrors are a secret, so in theory they all demand a soul or spirit-binding of sorts.
I would take that a step further and say that the "3E Helmed Horror" is a seperate creature than the "2E helmed horror" and that the 2E one deserves a write-up on it's own in 3.5..like a "lesser helmed horror" |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 17:35:49
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| I'd go with that Banite version being an alternative, too. I know of no other lore (I'll check my Monsters of Faerûn when I get home) that backs up the soul-power idea, or the necessity of an evil creator. And here's the question: if the creator has to be evil, where did Vangey get all those helmed horrors in Elminster's Daughter? |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 18:43:05
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Monsters of Faerun
Helm Horrors have Neutral alignments, but in the creation of Helm Horror section it states that it requires 'dread bargains' that 'only evil souls would ever be willing to pay'. It requires a level of 18th in Wizard to track down the dark methods, but you would still have to pay the price.
Lost Empires of Faerun
Helm horrors do not mention any dark rituals for creating them. The spells used are not evil in and of themselves.
The Battle Horrors, however, does require the binding of an evil elemental spirit into a Helm Horror in creation. The ritual does not have any evil spells, but the flavour and alignment of the beast hints at evil.
I hope this helps. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 18:53:00
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| Newer lore trumps older lore... I'd consider the Monsters of Faerûn entry to be a mistake, since it's the only one (other than the Banite version), in rules or in lore, that implies a dark source for the power. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 18:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Newer lore trumps older lore... I'd consider the Monsters of Faerûn entry to be a mistake, since it's the only one (other than the Banite version), in rules or in lore, that implies a dark source for the power.
I would agree to that...as much as the "evil" factor but more so the "must be 18th lvel to build one"...needing to be 18th level would indicate they were more powerful than about every non-epic golem |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 19:27:53
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| Well I seem to remember the 2ed version needing both a priest and a Wizard involved in the creation process. This combined with the secrecy about their creation could indicate the bindings of some sort of spirit. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 19:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well I seem to remember the 2ed version needing both a priest and a Wizard involved in the creation process. This combined with the secrecy about their creation could indicate the bindings of some sort of spirit.
From the Monstrous Compendium entry, in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set:
quote:
A horror is merely animated, empty armor, linked by magical forces.
and:
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The process of creating helmed horrors remains secret, but is known to require a priest of at least 7th level, some assistance from a wizard, and physical, nonmagical armor of any sort.
I honestly don't see how any binding is implied... Priests simply have access to spells that wizards don't, and vice-versa. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 20:13:52
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I don't mean that it is implied for certain in the text, I mean that it could be a possibility, as something more than the usual wizardly magic is involved, but it does not say what. The text says black on white that the creation process is a mystery so anything we say will be purely speculations anyway.
A little on the side of the subject, but I seem to remember something about more intelligent Helmet horrors mentioned by Ed in an early product, including one leading a trading company. Is this my imagination and bad memory playing tricks on me again? |
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Helm Horrors, and Golems?
