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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:05:19
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...can't seperate player knowledge from character knowledge.
I’m not sure if I’m alone in this mater, although I’m sure others will have had to deal with similar problems when DMing a group, my gaming group is a strange mix of veteran gamers and new gamers. I don’t have any problem with the three veterans as they are experienced enough to be able to differentiate between what they know and what their character knows. However the issue arises with the newer gamers (I say new they’ve been playing 2 times a week for a year now), some of them have gone off and against our wishes and advising have purchased various monster manuals which they have then read.
Now the problem arises with them not being able to separate player and character knowledge so their characters will seemingly jump to the most random conclusions about what it is they are facing (and its painfully obvious it’s the player who knows the knowledge not the character). I’ve already implemented various tactics so that they don’t know the one weakness and are able to kill it before it even spots them, however I was wondering if anyone has any other tactics and little tricks to use on gamers who can’t separate one from the other?
This is the first time I’ve come across this problem as all the other groups have been able to separate the knowledge so any hints or tips would be gratefully received and I’ll let you all know the outcome of them.
Brightest Blessings
Heidi
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:18:48
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Set them against opponents with class levels.
A fireball lobbing goblin should make them wonder |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:24:04
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... and if that does not help: four fire ball lobbing goblins. My near-epic group of purple dragons knights recently got their arses kicked by a nest of goblin adepts armed to the teeth with wands. 
Seriously, keep a steady supply of seldom used monsters handy, but go easy on the newcomers. Its a game, after all. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:25:20
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Well, there's always the old bonus xp for good role playing. Describing monsters, spells etc instead of naming them can be done but its a little cumbersome at times. Variants of monsters and abilities etc.
Bonus xp's would be my advise, but each group is different so its a little difficult to say anything final. If nothing else works, you will just have to talk to them and try to persuade them from reading the books.
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:30:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Morbannaon
...can't seperate player knowledge from character knowledge.
this is called "meta-gaming" in role playing games and can be the hardest part of running a game...
for a player you sometimes have to actually act like you don't know that monster, or you don't know that cook is actually a Cult of the Dragon agent (like in the novel Spellfire) or that in two years game time the dungeon your players are in will be destroyed (i.e. Hellgate Keep)
it is worse if your players have actually played the same adventure in the past (like Undermountain or the Temple of Elemental Evil)
but the worst meta-gaming is "in-game" meta-gaming, like your player's PC (who is a rogue) steals from the warlord but the other player's PCs do not know the rogue did it (which happens often in my games  )...the players must pretend that their characters do not know that the rogue character is carrying an extra 2000gp of gems in his/her pack...
another classical example is the wizard plans to cast a fireball (but the PC doesn't communicate that) so the other players make their PCs not run up ahead in combat (which they usually do normally) so their PCs will not be hit by the fireball...that is meta-gaming
I DM 90% of the time, the way I deal with it is simple...I tell the players they are metagaming and don't let them take that action. I know it's heavy-handed but meta-gaming can ruin a well-organized game and when experienced players are meta-gaming, there is no excuse for it
hope it helps  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:31:02
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| or you could always make it unique creatures that aren't immune to the normal monsters immunities and don't have the normal monster's weaknesses as well. I mean like some werecreatures are immune to silver but cold-iron hurts! I would also make them do knowlage checks, and ask them is that you or your character's knowlage, but i tend to be an ass! :D |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, there's always the old bonus xp for good role playing. Describing monsters, spells etc instead of naming them can be done but its a little cumbersome at times. Variants of monsters and abilities etc.
Bonus xp's would be my advise, but each group is different so its a little difficult to say anything final. If nothing else works, you will just have to talk to them and try to persuade them from reading the books.
I don't like doing the bonus XP role-playing reward in that regard, except for maybe new players...
bonus XP can sometime unbalance the PC party and the game and cause bad feelings if one player is a much better roleplayer than the other players...and if the poorer players get the bonus than the good player might get resentful...
like I said, I think there is little excuse for meta-gaming other than inexperience, and inexperience does not last long if they keep playing...as a DM tell them (politely) they are meta-gaming and you won't allow that action to occur...in time the players learn not to meta-game...
And as the others said, you can resort to "surprises" but that is often extra work for the DM but just to add for a very experienced player it is hard not to meta-game...and those surprises are often need to keep the game challenging... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:40:58
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| The players in question are as I understand it relatively new players, that's why I mentioned bonus XP's. I agree on the surprise variants, but that can be overdone and become almost demonstrative. Bonus xp's are not among my favorite things, but they are more a carrot than a whip and in my book that's the advantage. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:43:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Set them against opponents with class levels.
A fireball lobbing goblin should make them wonder
To surprise experienced gamers yes, I have done that, but with kobalds in my 3E revised Dragon Mountain adventure
but meta-gaming is usually a problem with a player or players (wether they intentionally or unintentionally do it) IMHO. They choose to meta-game to "get a leg up" over the DM (like buying RPG resource books against the DM's wishes) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Hawkfeather
Seeker
Brazil
64 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:46:02
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| You can also create a "new" monster using the stats of other well known monster, but describing it completly different. Myself, for example, used the Howler's stats to create a demonic horse-like mount (I just didn't want to use a nightmare). I removed the quills and the howl ability, and described it like a horse with wolf's fangs and goat's horns. As a final touch, I gave it the special qualities of an Abyssal petitioner (without the acidic vapor quality) and a charge attack with the horns. Voilà! Now a have a different monster, that the players will never figure out what it really is. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:46:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The players in question are as I understand it relatively new players, that's why I mentioned bonus XP's. I agree on the surprise variants, but that can be overdone and become almost demonstrative. Bonus xp's are not among my favorite things, but they are more a carrot than a whip and in my book that's the advantage.
thats what I understood too...but new players who get XP bonuses often become spoiled and expect XP bonuses for ever on...then as a DM you have to "jack-up" the game to balance the quicker player advancement
I try just to sit with them and explain "meta-gaming" and try to have them understand how detrimental it is for you (the DM) and the rest of the game (the players)
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:47:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Set them against opponents with class levels.
A fireball lobbing goblin should make them wonder
Well maybe one or two would be an idea 
Thanks |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:48:10
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As a DM and a player in the Realms if I am worried that I have too much knowledge of a subject as a player I ask the DM if I can make a quick knowledge roll. Then I ok the info I know with the DM if I roll well and share it through my character. If I roll poorly I just play dumb and the DM eventually gets around to revealing how to kill the nishruu, or who Galaeron Nihmedu is, and so on. Playing dumb is important so that your DM can once in a blue moon have the party come into contact with a popular Realms theme (NPC such as Storm, artifact such as the Nether Scrolls, or ancient elven lore). However some stuff I think about and consider possible knowledge my character would have. For instance:
My bard walks into a tomb that he quickly realizes is an elven tomb. He warns the other characters not to touch anything or take anything with checking with him first. Has used knowledge that he did not get in game but....being a bard I thought, well heck some adventure was probably complaining about how he lost his party in an elven tomb they were trying to pillage from over a mug of alle at an inn and I overheard him. A likely situation I would argue. The DM was cool with it too. I was right not to touch anything also. One the players still took something from the tomb and we were attacked. 
Always consider rolling for knowledge. Its a fun way to resolve the problem quickly. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Snotlord
... and if that does not help: four fire ball lobbing goblins. My near-epic group of purple dragons knights recently got their arses kicked by a nest of goblin adepts armed to the teeth with wands.
Seriously, keep a steady supply of seldom used monsters handy, but go easy on the newcomers. Its a game, after all.
I bet they weren't expecting that
Thanks for the tip |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:51:54
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| just have the players not have any access to the secret weapon or spell that is the creature's weakness |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:54:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, there's always the old bonus xp for good role playing. Describing monsters, spells etc instead of naming them can be done but its a little cumbersome at times. Variants of monsters and abilities etc.
Bonus xp's would be my advise, but each group is different so its a little difficult to say anything final. If nothing else works, you will just have to talk to them and try to persuade them from reading the books.
Bonus xp has been implimented as well as minus xp if there is a particular reason. I have tried to persuade them from reading the books and most of them are fine with that but there is still two that refuse to listen to either myself or my fiance who's the groups other DM (although he rarely DM's for the group as he gets very irritated by them)
Thanks for the suggestion though
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:55:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Always consider rolling for knowledge. Its a fun way to resolve the problem quickly.
I totally agree with that...but to use that option I had to (as a house rule) create a sub-skill for knowledge, knowledge: creatures and monsters, as it made no sense to me that you need the 8+ knowledge skills to have knowledge on each monster type...
quote from a player (who was playing an escaped gladiatoral slave) about a year ago:
quote:
I need (knowledge) religion to know we need to find the lich's phylactory to permanently defeat it???
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 21:58:23
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I would advise against minus xp's as these can lead to bad feelings. If I were to give one final advise before going to sleep it would be to use a combination of all of the above. Some variants, some exceptions, some rewards when they act against their own knowledge, but in character, some nameless describing etc. This should at least keep them a little on their toes.
With time they may take the hint, if not... Good luck. |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
....but the worst meta-gaming is "in-game" meta-gaming, .....
Both myself and my fiance who is also sometimes (when he can stand it) the DM for the group have pointed out the meta-gaming, but no mater what occurs they still don't get the message.
Meta-gaming is one of the biggest problems we have with the group but luckily its only one gamer thats the worst and so on the sessions he doesn't turn up its all fine
Thanks for the tips |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by VonRaventheDaring
or you could always make it unique creatures that aren't immune to the normal monsters immunities and don't have the normal monster's weaknesses as well. I mean like some werecreatures are immune to silver but cold-iron hurts! I would also make them do knowlage checks, and ask them is that you or your character's knowlage, but i tend to be an ass! :D
I'm begining to place monsters in that are a mix of a lot of other things and so although look like one thing aren't that thing. I think its possibly the best way to go.
Thanks for the tips, I may have to give the knowledge checks a go 
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:13:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Morbannaon
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
....but the worst meta-gaming is "in-game" meta-gaming, .....
Both myself and my fiance who is also sometimes (when he can stand it) the DM for the group have pointed out the meta-gaming, but no mater what occurs they still don't get the message.
Meta-gaming is one of the biggest problems we have with the group but luckily its only one gamer thats the worst and so on the sessions he doesn't turn up its all fine
Thanks for the tips
Well, sadly some players are sometimes poison to a group of role players and if you let them stay involved with you they ruin it for everyone, even to the point some players quit roleplaying all together..
if he/she refuses to stop meta-gaming, all you can do (at least) is to refuse to let him roleplay with you when you or your fiance are DMing...or kick him out of your group of role players completly (as a last resort)  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:15:46
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Another idea would be this:
Quit using dice and monsters for a while, let them roleplay. And if that doesn't work...tell them that the only thing that is spoken out of character at the table is their numbers calling of die-rolls, and spell announcements, and actions of their characters, everything else is IN character.
I once let my party be dumped by an avalanche because the player of the dwarf shouted out after I announced that rule for a few hours. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:19:13
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
bonus XP can sometime unbalance the PC party and the game and cause bad feelings if one player is a much better roleplayer than the other players...and if the poorer players get the bonus than the good player might get resentful...
All xp totals are kept secret and are only shown to other players if the person in question wants them to see it, so although you would think that that xp bonus's would cause problems the fact that they may get positive or negative bonus's actually has produced the best roleplaying the group has had.
Although I do agree it could have a negative effect so it will be cut back as things improve.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:24:08
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Maybe they are more succeptive to this:
suggest a game of poker, where all of them play with open cards, and they still have to bet money.
Sounds exciting, or? =) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:37:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
The players in question are as I understand it relatively new players, that's why I mentioned bonus XP's. I agree on the surprise variants, but that can be overdone and become almost demonstrative. Bonus xp's are not among my favorite things, but they are more a carrot than a whip and in my book that's the advantage.
To be honest I'm not sure if they can be classed as new players anymore, they've played twice a week (each time for more then 6 hours a time) for the past year. I've been prescribed to play D&D by my doctors as I recover from amnesia, as it helps with the various mental abilities that i've forgotten etc. So the gaming group has gamed even more recently which may mean they qualify as gamers rather than new gamers (but the lines all blured and fuzzy)
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkfeather
You can also create a "new" monster using the stats of other well known monster, but describing it completly different. Myself, for example, used the Howler's stats to create a demonic horse-like mount (I just didn't want to use a nightmare). I removed the quills and the howl ability, and described it like a horse with wolf's fangs and goat's horns. As a final touch, I gave it the special qualities of an Abyssal petitioner (without the acidic vapor quality) and a charge attack with the horns. Voilà! Now a have a different monster, that the players will never figure out what it really is.
I think I'll try something similar, it has also been suggested by someone I know that I should use the cover of a Monster Manual but have inside it a totally different book so that they have no idea whats coming up next.
Thanks for the suggestion |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:46:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
My bard walks into a tomb that he quickly realizes is an elven tomb. He warns the other characters not to touch anything or take anything with checking with him first. Has used knowledge that he did not get in game but....being a bard I thought, well heck some adventure was probably complaining about how he lost his party in an elven tomb they were trying to pillage from over a mug of alle at an inn and I overheard him. A likely situation I would argue. The DM was cool with it too. I was right not to touch anything also. One the players still took something from the tomb and we were attacked.
Always consider rolling for knowledge. Its a fun way to resolve the problem quickly.
If I can see of a way of how the character would have that knowledge I tend to let it slide, however rolling for knowledge is something that I will start using from now on.
Thanks for the veiw point and tip |
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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:47:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
just have the players not have any access to the secret weapon or spell that is the creature's weakness
Ok, thanks for the tip I may place that into the game at some point |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 22:49:35
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Or use a ... ahem...third party book. Green Ronin has a nice variant Monster Manual out there...I think it was Green Ronin anyway...
Or whoop their asses with some rival NPC adventurer group, that is comprised of...I'm tempted to say Yuan-Ti...or drow...no, wait... let the NPC party be orcs, half-orcs and humans. And since you know the rules AND are the DM mix their feats so properly that they will be a challenge to overcome in a head to head confrontation...force them to think.
P.S. : I know people who have played as long as I have (20 years) and I sure as hell would never call them gamers. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 23:23:46
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Always consider rolling for knowledge. Its a fun way to resolve the problem quickly.
I totally agree with that...but to use that option I had to (as a house rule) create a sub-skill for knowledge, knowledge: creatures and monsters, as it made no sense to me that you need the 8+ knowledge skills to have knowledge on each monster type...
That works for me... I know back when I was playing (I've not had a group to game with for a long time), I'd occasionally know things my character didn't -- so I'd pass the DM a note, asking if I knew this bit of info. I also knew that I was smarter than my character, so I'd occasionally make an intelligence check to see if my character had an idea that I just thought of.
One thing that monster entries in 2E had that 3E dropped was "frequency". With that, you knew of a critter was common, uncommon, rare, etc. I wish they'd kept that -- because you could use that as a modifier for the monster knowledge check. You can still do it, I suppose, but it's more difficult without that knowledge... |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 23:38:57
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I also like the idea of a Knowledge skill for creatures and monsters; currently I let my players try and identify animals or obviously strongly magical creatures with Knowledge nature and arcana respectively.
I also favour XP for good roleplaying or particularly good ideas - in my experience nobody gets upset, it tends to inspire the others to work harder next time. And I've never let the bonuses get so unreasonable as to make things completely unbalanced. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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A question about gamers who......
