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Forgotten Ghost
Acolyte
Australia
36 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 12:47:10
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Now we all know there are numerous evil and goods gods with various schemes against one another active in the realms and the same goes for the Arch devils and Demon Princes, But you would think that some good outsider (a solar or planetar) would set their own forces to oppose the works of these evil outsider cults. Though this never seems to be the case and why do even good wizards and clerics summon demons and devils to do their bidding wouldn't a good outsider be more appropiate (at least some times)?
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Forgotten Ghost
Acolyte
Australia
36 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 12:55:35
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| Well my own thoughts on why good outsiders might not be summoned as readily as evil maybe because so many evil outsiders have been summoned before it maybe be easier, what with evil fiend names easier found, and so many different precauntions specified for evil fiends. Also maybe since evil fiends particularly demons are so consumed with thei own goals and base lusts and insticints they are more easily bargained with than good outsiders. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 15:16:00
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| Evil outsiders are more likely to give the summoner what he wants... Part of the point for summoning outsiders is for evil purposes: getting them to give you power or do bad things to other people. You need baddies to do bad things. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 18:07:40
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| I have often wondered the same thing, Ghost. If I were a mage of some power, requiring some assistance in my fight against evil, I think I'd be calling upon the forces of a good deity. It's like waking up in the middle of the night with an intruder in your home and telephoning the jail to send someone over to help! |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 20:20:33
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| The Good Outsiders typically only interfere in the direst of circumstances; the fall of a nation, or even several, to Evil Outsiders is small. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 23:51:21
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| And let's face it--we need conflict to have an interesting story, and evil fiends being summoned for some nefarious purpose generally makes for an more interesting story than celestials being summoned to do nice, benevolent things. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 26 Aug 2006 23:51:37 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2006 : 00:10:14
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Well fact of the matter, most of the Celestial that we think of are the heavy hitters of the Divine Realms. Most are around Pit Fiend/Balor power with Solars being mini-gods in statue.
Using the Summon Monster Charts and eliminating the Celestial beasts:
4th--Archon, Lantern LG
5th--Archon, Hound LG
6th--Eladrin, Bralani CG
7th--Guardinal, Avoral NG
8th--Lillend CG
9th--Couatl (Native) LG; Guardinal, Lional NG
Plus in the Planar Handbook there are:
Cleric 5th --Summon Hound Archon
Cleric 6th --Call Bralani Eladrin
Wizard/Sorcerer 9th, Cleric 9th --Heavnly Host (Summons a bunch of Archons to fight for you)
Remember like all outsiders and elementals, they have their own agenda. Those that serve gods you worship will follow you into hell and back if such action will promote the god. Archons will do what they can to advance the cause of Justice.
It's just that as a force of good, they well look at things long and hard before they help. They want to cause the less amount of hurt and perhaps even redeem your foes rather than kill them (Make things harder at times). Think of Celestials as genetic Exalted heroes and that might help.
If you want to add more celestials, compare the stats in the various spells and see if your DM might allow a substution. Look at the lower level ones... heck the BoED allows you to have celestial familiars with the right feet.
Just me rambling... |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2006 : 00:20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And let's face it--we need conflict to have an interesting story, and evil fiends being summoned for some nefarious purpose generally makes for an more interesting story than celestials being summoned to do nice, benevolent things.
Unless it's a book or game starring villians!   |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Forgotten Ghost
Acolyte
Australia
36 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 01:35:58
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Thanks for the replies, and whilst i agree that they would only interfere in the most dire of circumstances would they not want to oppose cults of demon or devil worshippers since that could see those demons or devils ascend to god hood, or at the very least make good people aware of them and provide advice on how best to stop them of something. Also fiends always appear in the novels and do bad stuff following their own agenda or an evil gods the only novel i can think of which included a good outside actually doing anything was Vanity's Brood.
Other than that I don't recall any good outsiders really contributing anything at all, and wouldn't there be some rogue celestials who may not agree with the policy of think long and hard, then maybe help if it's warranted.
One last thought of mine is that by doing nothing to help oppose some evil aren't thay by doing nothing doing something evil by neglecting the fact that they could help but don't. |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 02:05:05
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| All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing.... |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 02:10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Conlon
All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing....
Right, that's why heroes actually DO something rather than sit around wondering "where have all the good-aligned outsiders gone?" |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Aug 2006 02:22:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 02:19:38
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| Of course, there's also the possibility that the good-aligned outsiders are, for whatever reason, sticking to the background. From there, they manipulate and assist the forces of good, helping to stop the machinations of the evil outsiders. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2006 : 05:32:59
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Yes Wooly, but it would be refreshing to see an angel come in with some holy muscle and kick some demon butt. Doncha think? I'm not saying that it should happen all the time, but I don't think I've ever seen a good outsider make an appearance where they got down and dirty and waded into combat alongside mortals. I'm sure it has been written about, I just don't remember it.
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My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 00:31:26
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| I think part of this is just the difference between good and evil though. Certain holy sites an angel might show up and defend, but for the most part, if the good outsiders were constantly fighting the good fight and not running messages and inspiring mortals, then mortals would expect that nothing bad would ever happen to them, or that they have no responsibility for their own sitution. |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 00:55:05
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| Like I said in my previous post: I'm not saying that it should happen all the time. I agree that they shouldn't constantly be visibly "in the mix", just that it would be refreshing to see them take an active role on occasion. Just to have some "righteous might" displayed against the forces of the lower planes which are always arrayed against the peoples of the Realms would be pretty cool. Hey - just my opinion folks. |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Forgotten Ghost
Acolyte
Australia
36 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 11:34:30
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Like I said I agree but the thing is I don't remember any good aligned outsider "manipulating" or even providing advice in a novel, Except the Coutal in Vanity's Brood, that as far as I can recall that a celestial ever actually did anything. So another question is what are the good aligned outsiders actually doing? i mean the evil are clearly doing evil things that evil things like them do but the good are... well i don't know what they are doing.
And how does everyone know Solars are so kick ass if they have never actually appeared and done anything. (aside from the fact that they have a high CR in the Monster Manual) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 01:01:14
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| Just because celestials don't usually appear in novels doesn't mean they "never do anything". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 16:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Conlon
Like I said in my previous post: I'm not saying that it should happen all the time. I agree that they shouldn't constantly be visibly "in the mix", just that it would be refreshing to see them take an active role on occasion. Just to have some "righteous might" displayed against the forces of the lower planes which are always arrayed against the peoples of the Realms would be pretty cool. Hey - just my opinion folks.
I totally agree.
Forgotten Ghost, I've asked the same question year ago on Wotc boards and I only got 2 or three references to celestial interventions in Faerun (one is Tyr's crusade, other some bound celestial under Narfell or Implitur). |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 16:35:57
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And we have the Child of Light, in Lady of Poison novel, by Bruce R. Cordell. I donīt remember to see the child being stated in any part of the novel, but to me, I stay with the impression that Ash is a good Solar (in the final part of the book)  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 16:45:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Conlon
All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing....
argh! that would have been my point!
it doesn't make sense for the celestials (as a whole) take a non-interference role with mortals wheil the infernals (as a whole) are very interested in mortal affairs...
I think it is just a writers choice not to include celestials and the Upper Planes in their story lines as evil is more "cooler" and (even though it is quite logical) celestial aid would make it "too easy" for the heros in the stotylines to succeed... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 17:44:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Conlon
Yes Wooly, but it would be refreshing to see an angel come in with some holy muscle and kick some demon butt. Doncha think? I'm not saying that it should happen all the time, but I don't think I've ever seen a good outsider make an appearance where they got down and dirty and waded into combat alongside mortals. I'm sure it has been written about, I just don't remember it.
Itīs not exactly this, but in one of my campaigns (back in the days of the 2nd edition), in a game session, the group was ambushed by some hobgoblins, underlings of the great villain. The battle was very hard, and ended with all the heroes fallen, dying in an unknown place in the Savage North. In this moment, all the heroes start an collective dream when all of them have become childs, and are playing in an enchanted wood, under the light of Selûne, under the care of a good and old woman. (IIRC, I have see the videoclip of the music Caribbean Blue, by Enya, that afternoon ) When they awake, the next day, all the wounds was healed, their equipment was in perfect condition, the hobgoblins lay dead near the campfire, and the moon elf fighter/mage have a beautiful token in his belt: a little harp, sculpted in a pretty silver rock. In game terms, I make Selune send "someone" to help and protect the group.
Years after this, when I was DMing the adventure For Duty and Deity, the group encounter the Lillend that have saved them in the past. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 17:46:36
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I believe that most good outsiders in the MM are all higher level monsters that don't commonly appear due to overshadowing the heroes.
Using Savage Species:
Astral Deva ECL:20th
Avoral ECL:14th
Ghaele ECL:20th
Hound Archon ECL:11th
Trumpet Archon ECL:20th
Lillend ECL:13th
About half of those listed have a character level of 20. Needing 20th level heroes to avoid being overshadowed. Not counting a Solar!
It takes a careful hand to find the right Celestial. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 18:42:55
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Most goodly clerics are more interested in helping their community in other ways without relying on their divine casting.I would think they are busy dealing with politics and other day to day issues. It's not every day they expect to deal with devils and most just don't have the raw power to being such a summoning. :) A majority of magi are probably similarly inclined or are absorbed with studies in other directions. How often (outside of a serious adventuring group) are you going to a) be the proper power level to command an outsider? b) find the knowledge to summon such a being or c) even have the need to?
Demons and devas aren't summoned to deal with the local hobgoblin tribe- they're summoned by seasoned adventurers or extremely experienced wizards/clerics to rout an unexpected and serious problem. Even evil clerics only summon their strongest minions when fighting a full out war or have to make a serious push. |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2006 : 09:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Most goodly clerics are more interested in helping their community in other ways without relying on their divine casting.I would think they are busy dealing with politics and other day to day issues. It's not every day they expect to deal with devils and most just don't have the raw power to being such a summoning. :) A majority of magi are probably similarly inclined or are absorbed with studies in other directions. How often (outside of a serious adventuring group) are you going to a) be the proper power level to command an outsider? b) find the knowledge to summon such a being or c) even have the need to?
Demons and devas aren't summoned to deal with the local hobgoblin tribe- they're summoned by seasoned adventurers or extremely experienced wizards/clerics to rout an unexpected and serious problem. Even evil clerics only summon their strongest minions when fighting a full out war or have to make a serious push.
I agree. Only when it is a serious, cut-and-dried, good vs. evil situation should the good outsiders intervene in some way. The thing is, there have been many situations like this where the demons/devils get involved, but the big good dudes don't.
Take for example, the reclaiming of Myth Drannor. We got Malkizid and a bunch of evil planetouched, but no good outsiders. No criticism intended, Mr Baker, just an example to illustrate my point.
Hopefully we'll see some solars or planetars wiping the ground with a few demons in the near future. It's nice to see the good gods flex their muscles on occasion... |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2006 : 23:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Conlon
Take for example, the reclaiming of Myth Drannor. We got Malkizid and a bunch of evil planetouched, but no good outsiders. No criticism intended, Mr Baker, just an example to illustrate my point.
No good outsiders, but we did have an elven leader who was obviously on something, which was far more entertaining.
Anyway, I don't see this issue (not enough celestials!) as a real problem. I'd rather read about mortals and their personal struggles anyway. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 Sep 2006 23:26:44 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 01:22:43
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Spoilers for the Last Mythal books:
To be fair, we had an Eladrin show up and warn Araevin about the consequences of fusing his essence with an eladrin, and Araevin became an outsider as a result, so we did have a good aligned outsider involved in the whole thing. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 02 Sep 2006 01:24:06 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 02:43:37
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Spoilers for the Last Mythal books:
To be fair, we had an Eladrin show up and warn Araevin about the consequences of fusing his essence with an eladrin, and Araevin became an outsider as a result, so we did have a good aligned outsider involved in the whole thing.
Yeah, but...(highlight for spoiler)
..the eladrin only "showed up" because Araevin basically summoned her (via his ritual). I suppose that counts for the purposes of this thread, but in this case a good-aligned celestial was involved only because Araevin actively sought out that nature of help, not because the eladrin simply decided to get involved with the overall conflict. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 09:27:58
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Good points from both!
I had forgotten about that part in the Last Mythal. Yes, although the eladrin was present (which is unusual), it was only there because it had been requested by a mortal, not because it felt that it's presence would help even the odds against the evil forces at work.
Since only two references have been mentioned in this thread, it would seem that there definitely is a lack of good outsiders in Realms literature.
I'm not sure why I care about this topic... I will say though, that when I was younger, watching horror movies, whenever innocent people were being turned into pate by some demonic beast, I always hoped that some good counterpart of the demons would swoop in to save the day. I guess that is also why I liked the Last Mythal series. Finally the elves took back something that was precious to them, something good. It is just nice to see the good guys win, even if they need a little help from above... It must be late - I'm getting sappy. |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Forgotten Ghost
Acolyte
Australia
36 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 09:53:09
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I also remember that part but like you said she was summoned, also while the celestials are really powerful there isn't any reason they couldn't take an advisory role or that of the good guy manipulating from behind the scenes helping to guide mortals so as to help stop evil (just think Tyrael from Diablo 2, though even he got his hands dirty at times).
And what would the celestials consider worthy enough of their direct intervention anyway. Clearly a former archdevil walking the mortal plane doesn't count. |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 15:35:17
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Which made me wonder why, if the Last Mythall was/is a World-Changing Event, that the Celestial's/Good Outsiders didn't say "Woh, what the hey?" is get there, and left it to the Elven Race it self, who some how has been involved in a few 'major events' over the last oh, ten years, and had enough defense/offensive messaures for the few months the story took place.
No I'm not attempting ot highjack this thread, just making a point that if there was so many fiends, and a former archdevil, sayra and her men walking the prime material, the excuse from WoTC/Mr. Baker that the introduction of even a handful of Good Outsiders wasn't shown.
Ah, we must love WOTC and there "Lets do this world changing three book saga and leave this all open and blank!" ways :D |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 17:21:12
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| Something about the last mythal keeps bugging me. In Siege of Darkness the drow don`t take the summoned demons with them to assault Mithral Hall because they fear that that would make the celestials come out in force to oppose them. Yet, in the last mythal we have hundreds of demons, devils and yugoloths running rampant across the Dales, and not a single celestial shows up to do something. I mean, guys like Raziel the crusader wouldnīt simply stand by and say "pass the popcorn". The forces of good are either lazy or incompetent(or possibly both) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Where have all the good aligned outsiders gone?
