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gribble_the_munchkin
Acolyte
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 11:27:49
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Hello all, former lurker current poster here.
I was idly flicking through the Epic handbook the other day, as is my wont, when i noticed an oddity.
Some of the epic spells are technically uncastable in a real game. Further when i was reading through another book (forgive me, I can't remember which one) i noticed that all the Netherese spells (re-written into epic spellcasting) were also impossible to cast, at least in the realms.
For instance. Proctivs move mountain. Its the spell you need to create a flying enclave. We know Netheril had a good 20+ of these.
The spell DC is 280.
Now Karsus, the greatest wizard who ever lived was, say, total lvl 45 (i know he is technically 41 burt thats 2nd ed, bear with me). That gives him 48 ranks in spellcraft. Lets assume he read the first chapter of the nether scrolls +30 spellcraft (total 78), further assume he had a intelligence around 90 giving him a whopping +40 int bonus (total 118). He has a artifact giving him +50 spellcraft (total 168). Lastly he has a bunch of feats, some epic, that give him a further +20 spellcraft (total 188).
Right, so even being very generous, Karsus the greatest wizard of all time has a max spellcraft of about 188. Lets round it up with a few bits i've probably forgotten to 200. Ok, now Karsus only needs to roll an 80. On a D20.
You see my point. This spell simply could not be cast as written.
And this goes for quite a few other spells. They simply remain out of reach of ALL the Faerunian major spellcasters. Even the biggest and baddest (Larloch, Ioulam, Karsus) could never cast half these spells. And remember how generous i was with Karsus' stats, its unlikely he could actually get nearly that close to 200.
So my question. Has anyone else thought about this and if so, what were there solutions. Has anyone houseruled Epic magic?
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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gribble_the_munchkin
Acolyte
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 15:28:11
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| true, but in the case of Epic spells such things as circle magic are built into the spell design. Hence these spells have that kind of high DC AFTER circle magic/extended casting times/xp and hit point burn/etc. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 16:59:20
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I think that epic spells and the great Netherese spells should have been left as apples and oranges
In 2nd Ed. Netheril Box set it explains that netherese magic was different than magic of the present time...there were 12 levels of magic (Karsus’s avatar being the only 12th level spell ever made) and the spellcasters had to reach beyond level 30 mage to even cast these great spells...and to have a character past Lv 30 was supposed to be near impossible...even Elminster and the Simbul was not past Lv 30 in 2nd Ed.)
The epic magic is based off of the true deomers (sp?) of the optional 2nd Ed. rules where the netherese magic also did not translate well...
To get the full effect of a true Netherese “mega-spell” you would probably have to be in the ludicrous castor levels of 60+, which is in par to being Lv 30+ in 2nd Ed.
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:52:55
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And I think I'll have to argue with Warlockco, here...
None of the original Netherese 10th+ level spells, that I can think of, had any more than one spellcaster.
It's useless to convert a lot of 10th+ level spells to Epic Spellcasting, since we don't know of Proctiv's Move Mountain ever even being used after the Fall, so it would have had no Epic version. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 07:08:35
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| Actually, I think a variation of Proctiv's Move Mountain did occur once, in Elminster In Hell, when either the Simbul or Halaster dropped a mountain on a legion of demons :D. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:10:34
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| It was the Simbul, and I'm not sure if Ed was exactly referencing that spell when he had the Simbul toss a mountain. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:24:27
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Epic spells with spellcraft DCs that climb higher than 45-50 are getting into the ridiculous category. Most Spellcraft skills for the higher level NPCs in the Realms are in the 30s and if you are in a situation where you can't take 10 (ala combat) then you haven't much of a chance of casting one.
In some recent work on epic magic, what I did was look at the intended caster's spellcraft skill rank and then work backwards to get a spell that fits that caster. This should be the approach. There is no such thing as a generic epic spell IMHO. They should all be tailor-made to their casters. It's not like they can be easily written down in a spellbook and learned by other casters.
That said, cooperative epic spellcasting can lower spellcraft DCs considerably - as long as the spell is recognised as cooperative and would have been cast as such in the context of the Realms. Netheril wasn't big on cooperative spellcasting - except where you spellbound your apprentices to do your bidding I guess. Also, I think it's unrealistic to think that the Netherese survivor states didn't toil to reproduce their 10+ level spells in epic format after the Fall. It would make sense that the wizards of Halruaa, Helbrester, Anauria, Asram etc. would have all tried to reproduce their earlier efforts. So Netherese epic spells would exist, but likely come from a time period from about -339 DR to around the 200s-300s DR, and only in cultures that recognised themselves as Netherese in origin.
Well, enough of my rambling.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:38:06
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| Haha i have no idea but one of the phrases the poor doomed dolts said had me chuckling for quite a while( well we do know it was a pretty epic spell "Truly mighty magic," an old, scarred pit fiend said unnecessarily. "Belike the hand of Lord Asmodeus himself.") "Well," a particularly stupid cornugon said from somewhere near the height, "at least it struck down the intruder, too! Nothing could have s-" . . . and the rest as we say is history |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:42:01
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quote:
In some recent work on epic magic, what I did was look at the intended caster's spellcraft skill rank and then work backwards to get a spell that fits that caster. This should be the approach. There is no such thing as a generic epic spell IMHO. They should all be tailor-made to their casters. It's not like they can be easily written down in a spellbook and learned by other casters.
I agree here.
quote:
That said, cooperative epic spellcasting can lower spellcraft DCs considerably - as long as the spell is recognised as cooperative and would have been cast as such in the context of the Realms. Netheril wasn't big on cooperative spellcasting - except where you spellbound your apprentices to do your bidding I guess. Also, I think it's unrealistic to think that the Netherese survivor states didn't toil to reproduce their 10+ level spells in epic format after the Fall. It would make sense that the wizards of Halruaa, Helbrester, Anauria, Asram etc. would have all tried to reproduce their earlier efforts. So Netherese epic spells would exist, but likely come from a time period from about -339 DR to around the 200s-300s DR, and only in cultures that recognised themselves as Netherese in origin.
I'm sure they may have toiled to do so.. But the question was, with their former knowledge of magic tied so strictly to the Nether Scrolls, after Mystra reworked the way that they accessed the weave (having to effectively change 'classes' entirely, from Arcanist-> Wizard), how SUCCESSFUL would they have been in a given amount of time, under certain very harsh (post-Fall) circumstances?
I doubt they would have had the time or resources to properly research 10th+ level spells, particularly considering the vast majority of their magical knowledge, research, and higher-level spellcasters were probably destroyed in the Fall. Otherwise the Elves wouldn't have kicked their arses so handily (and in Cormanthyr, it makes it explicit that in every clash between the Elves and the post-Fall Netherese, the Elves seemed to dominate with ease).
I guess I'm saying - Larloch was special, according to Ed, because his abilities were rumored to 'approach that of Old Netheril.' I don't see it as very fitting that the post-Fall Netherese would have Epic Spells of a level of power equivalent to 10th+ level spells floating around, if Larloch was singularly rumored (and feared by the likes of Szass Tam) for such power. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 09 Aug 2006 09:49:23 |
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gribble_the_munchkin
Acolyte
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 09:43:24
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There is a very good point here that i hadn't really taken on board. Epic spellcasting is not level 10 and 11 spells. Its is generally weaker.
Hence spells like Proctivs move mountain would have been a lvl 11 spell but are now pretty much uncastable after Mystras changes to the weave.
That said, i do believe that my problems with Epic spellcasting do have merit. In particular:
*5 for permanent spells is too much. It makes even simple permanent spells out of reach of all by 40+ casters. IMC I have house ruled this to *3
Reducing the spellcraft DC by extended casting times, circle magic, blah blah blah could reduce powerful spells down to spellcraft DC 1 thus allowing super cheap and quite powerful spells to be developed. I have house ruled this to reductions to the spellcraft DC affect only half the value of the unmodified spell for costs and xp but can indeed reduce the CASTING DC down to 1.
Writing down the epic spell making it cost double seems so utterly ridiculous that i house ruled it out totally. What wizard is honestly going to develop a 100,000gp spell and not have extensive lab notes and a final written copy. I house ruled this out completely.
The rules on time to develop epic spells means that a lot of them can actually be developed QUICKER than level 9 spells. This seems utterly wrong. I house ruled the spell creation times by replacing any mention of days with weeks (ten days). Epic spells should not be able to be created in a few weeks. Months is far more appropriate (must be my Ars Magica roots showing)
What do you think of these rules? grossly overbalanced? Fair and reasonable? anyone else houseruled epic spells? |
"We are sorry, you have reached an imaginary number, please rotate your phone 90 degrees and try again" |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 09:48:32
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I agree with all of the above rules, but that's probably because I'm such a huge Mage: the Ascension fan, and I've heard a lot about Ars Magica and liked it. The Order of Hermes is my favorite Tradition. ;)
I particularly agree with the ideas of the ability to reduce casting DC down to a ridiculously slow number - I'd make each Epic spell have a specific MINIMUM DC check based on the final DC of a spell BEFORE mitigating factors are factored in. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 03:24:49
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>>For instance. Proctivs move mountain. Its the spell you need to create a flying enclave. We >>know Netheril had a good 20+ of these.
>>The spell DC is 280.
>>Now Karsus, the greatest wizard who ever lived was, say, total lvl 45 (i know he is >>technically 41 burt thats 2nd ed, bear with me). That gives him 48 ranks in spellcraft. >>Lets assume he read the first chapter of the nether scrolls +30 spellcraft (total 78), >>further assume he had a intelligence around 90 giving him a whopping +40 int bonus (total >>118). He has a artifact giving him +50 spellcraft (total 168). Lastly he has a bunch of >>feats, some epic, that give him a further +20 spellcraft (total 188).
Actually, its doable, but would be hard. What you have to keep in mind is that there are different types of bonuses. I can see an epic level caster (lets say lvl 40 since I believe that was the level of the great netherese mages) crafting a set of "epic-spell" gear that they put on only when working major epic works. Thus he might have a +20 competence bonus to spellcraft from one item (item gives you better skill), a +20 insight bonus from another (item gives you a glimpse into the future that guides your casting), a +20 luck bonus from another (item reduces the chance of you flubbing your casting), and a +20 morale bonus (item gives you the confidence in your skill), a sacred bonus +20 (a ring blessed by Mystra's avatar?). The right chemicals might open the mind up and give an alchemical bonus. Assuming he has the above 5 items (+100)and say a 40 int (+15) plus reading the scrolls (+30) plus ranks in spellcraft (+43) plus skill focus(spellcraft) +10 for a total of 198. Throw in a +20 alchemical one-time and you have +218. Casting it under the proper circumstances (i.e. when the moon is just right and you are standing on the conjunction of a series of ley lines and there is a connection to the elemental plane of earth... whatever) could also give a circumstance bonus (say +20 more to +238).
Of course, 238 is not close enough to 280 to be able to cast the spell still. But, you are doing all of this is with NON-epic magic items that would be relatively cheap (40,000 for the +20 competence item 80,000 each for the other 4 items each, whopping total of 360,000 gold... pennies to the gear a 40th lvl wizard pc would have, and even possible with the money that npc's have as well). Going into netherese arcanist possibly reduces the DC by 5 (so 275 instead of 280). So, it looks like you do need an epic item that gives a +43 enhancement bonus (probably an enhancement bonus so it replaces the 40,000 gold item that gives +20). This puts you at +261. Its now a doable thing, and this is with only taking a single feat focused on the skill and another epic feat to craft your own epic item. You could also take the normal skill focus and some other feats that add to spellcraft.
Have no doubt, this would be a bitch to cast, but then again, moving mountains is kinda big. Take this same person and look now at some of the slightly lesser epic spells.... they don't look near as bad now do they?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 03:27:01
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| I don't like the idea of having to deck a character out in 'specific gear' to be able to cast culturally iconic spells... Seems a bit cheap, to me. But that's just me, obviously. Too much like WoW! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:20:53
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
The way I see a number of the Epic spells, specially ones that were supposed to have been used by Ancient Netherese Arcanists, is these are the "Modern" versions of that magic (i.e. versions of those spells that work within the rules of Mystra's Ban).
yep, thats what true deowmers (sp?) were supposed to be...that is why they are so hard to cast...and some old memory tells me even then Mystra had to directly approve the casting of a true deowmer/epic spell |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:27:05
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| Hmm if thats the case, then what about Epic Cleric spells (Clerics have epic spells right?) |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:44:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
Hmm if thats the case, then what about Epic Cleric spells (Clerics have epic spells right?)
yes they did...the old quest spells introduced in the 2nd Ed. Tome of Magic also became (divine) true deowmers...thus divine epic spells..
I imagine that the god granting the divine epic spell (like Tyr, Bane, etc.) provides most of the power to the priest but I think Mystra's Ban still stands and she can veto the spell (with Ao's blessing) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:47:55
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| Hmm something like her stripping of magic off of Cyric in the book "The Prince of Lies" eh |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:59:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
Hmm something like her stripping of magic off of Cyric in the book "The Prince of Lies" eh
I don't think exactly...
When Mystryl resurected herself as Mystra she then laid down a whole pile of restriction so mortals in the Realms could not harness that much power (i.e. 10th Lv + spells) and cause as much damage as the Netherese did to the world and the Weave...
If divine true deowmers/epic spells were not regulated by Mystra's ban (i.e. Mystra allowing divine epic magic to "go off") there really would not have been a point of Mystra's Ban...and the clergies would probably be ruling the world today with their easy epic magics...
I have always kinda felt that Mystra is more the Caretaker of the Weave than Master/Mistress of the Weave...and she takes her cue from Ao directly... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 17:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Epic spells with spellcraft DCs that climb higher than 45-50 are getting into the ridiculous category. Most Spellcraft skills for the higher level NPCs in the Realms are in the 30s and if you are in a situation where you can't take 10 (ala combat) then you haven't much of a chance of casting one.
In some recent work on epic magic, what I did was look at the intended caster's spellcraft skill rank and then work backwards to get a spell that fits that caster. This should be the approach. There is no such thing as a generic epic spell IMHO. They should all be tailor-made to their casters. It's not like they can be easily written down in a spellbook and learned by other casters.
That said, cooperative epic spellcasting can lower spellcraft DCs considerably - as long as the spell is recognised as cooperative and would have been cast as such in the context of the Realms. Netheril wasn't big on cooperative spellcasting - except where you spellbound your apprentices to do your bidding I guess. Also, I think it's unrealistic to think that the Netherese survivor states didn't toil to reproduce their 10+ level spells in epic format after the Fall. It would make sense that the wizards of Halruaa, Helbrester, Anauria, Asram etc. would have all tried to reproduce their earlier efforts. So Netherese epic spells would exist, but likely come from a time period from about -339 DR to around the 200s-300s DR, and only in cultures that recognised themselves as Netherese in origin.
Well, enough of my rambling.
-- George Krashos
I have to say George, I really do appreciate the way you can rattle off an explanation that reconciles things and puts them in proper "Realms" focus like this. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:16:06
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Well, don't I feel unecessarily contrary, now? ;)
I wasn't arguing with George, per se - I guess I just overthink things sometimes. Bad me! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Epic Spellcasting - Broken spells?
