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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:36:16
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Many, many low level wizards die. And at the middling levels, the curve changes dramatically, because Wizards get neat little tricks like being able to teleport away from danger, summon minions to do their job for them, scry from afar on situations, etc.
And you don't need to believe it - the Realms' NPC stats prove this. ;)
I'm not saying you are wrong..I'm just saying you are not giving a fighter credit, especially if the fighter also as magical aid/items (like they all would, especially a high/epic level)
And there is a bias to spellcasters in the Realms, especially post 3rd Ed...there is so much magic now in the Realms it almost rivals Eberron...There should as many if not more high level warriors in the realms as once upon a time before anyone could cast spells (ahem, sorcerers) wizardry took talent and study and true wizards (vs hedge wizards and dabblers) were a special breed...now in the Realms it's like "Hooked on Wizardry works for me!"
And conversly in most real mythologies and classical fantasy the heros are usually fighters and spellcasters are usually religated to the rare uber-wizard (e.g. Merlin) or more commonly the wicked and/or deceptive foe of the hero...(from greek to norse to arabian tales) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:44:28
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quote:
Proves what exactly; stats are a sett of game rules and I cant see what they prove in this case.
That in the Realms, high level spellcasters are categorically more dangerous and numerous than high level fighters. Look at Ed's stories and the like, too ("A Price So High," I believe, has a very important Zhentarim Fighter-type quaking in his boots at the very thought of challenging a Wizard).
quote:
I'm not saying you are wrong..I'm just saying you are not giving a fighter credit, especially if the fighter also as magical aid/items (like they all would, especially a high/epic level)
We're analyzing the class, here, not the items or aid they have. Where do you think all of those magical items come from? Wizards. And in the Realms, magical items of significant power are NOT common.
quote:
And there is a bias to spellcasters in the Realms, especially post 3rd Ed...there is so much magic now in the Realms it almost rivals Eberron...There should as many if not more high level warriors in the realms as once upon a time before anyone could cast spells (ahem, sorcerers) wizardry took talent and study and true wizards (vs hedge wizards and dabblers) were a special breed...now in the Realms it's like "Hooked on Wizardry works for me!"
2E magic was by far more powerful. I have played 2E Wizards for about 10 years, almost exclusively.
quote:
And conversly in most real mythologies and classical fantasy the heros are usually fighters and spellcasters are usually religated to the rare uber-wizard (e.g. Merlin) or more commonly the wicked and/or deceptive foe of the hero...(from greek to norse to arabian tales)
Odin was a god of magic and knowledge before all, and always comes out on top. Circe, Merlin, I believe the main protagonist of the Halevala is a spellcaster; the majority of African Epics center around spellcasting over melee; the Mahabharata highlights the supernatural/magical prowess of the epic heroes over all else (and in that culture, deception and illusion are laudable, not wicked). Egyptian mythology is rife with magic spells (Isis resurrecting Osiris, for instance).
That World Epics class I took seems to have paid off. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:44:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kalin agrivar
And conversly in most real mythologies and classical fantasy the heros are usually fighters and spellcasters are usually religated to the rare uber-wizard (e.g. Merlin) or more commonly the wicked and/or deceptive foe of the hero...(from greek to norse to arabian tales)
Sorry for always nitpicking.
I would agree if we look on the Christian tradition, but in many of the myths, like the Kalevala the Russian tales, the Irish sagas and the older Nordic it is the warrior with mystical abilities that is the hero. Either bardic or more of a fighter combined with some sort of sorcerous ability, often of a divine source. The same goes for the heroic tales of other continents, much of this has to do with the heroes connection with the gods and his destiny.
When it concerns the rest of your post I agree that the amount of magic is starting to get a bit to much. I like magic a bit of a mystery and something seen as a bit dangerous.
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:46:10
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Kalevala, right, Jorkens. :)
But thanks for inadvertently helping me out there. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:52:28
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And.. We can look at more recent fantasy classics, too.
Gandalf was basically a demigod, and he's the archetypal D&D Wizard.
Elric was renowned for his mastery of spells that his bloodline had long ago forgotten (and only after getting a magical demon-god sword was he able to utilize his melee capabilities to the fullest).
Rand al'Thor? Most powerful channeler ever.
Richard Raal? Renowned for being the first War Wizard in millennia (and for a sword - created by Wizards/magic). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 20:59:32
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quote:
Originally posted by GOthicDan
That in the Realms, high level spellcasters are categorically more dangerous and numerous than high level fighters. Look at Ed's stories and the like, too ("A Price So High," I believe, has a very important Zhentarim Fighter-type quaking in his boots at the very thought of challenging a Wizard).
No, this is not shown by the stats. Now, I agree that the wizard is more powerful and that more powerful wizards than fighters are in possessions of power in the realms. What is not said is the number of high level fighters; generals, caravan masters, weapon masters and such are often not detailed, but they will exist. We can not read anything about the numbers of each class' members from realms products.
But, we are straying from the topic at hand. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:03:06
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We're analyzing the class, here, not the items or aid they have. Where do you think all of those magical items come from? Wizards. And in the Realms, magical items of significant power are NOT common.
If you are just analyzing class then yes, a wizard is more powerful..but then that makes a cleric more powerful than a wizard...and no, powerful magic items are getting pretty common now...and the lesser magical items? they now have "wall-mart like" Thayan Enclaves for all your shopping needs...
quote:
2E magic was by far more powerful. I have played 2E Wizards for about 10 years, almost exclusively.
I hate getting into the silly "well I'v done this for so long" petty arguement but I'v played wizards for over 20 years...and I'm not bias to any class...it's the role player that makes the class powerful, not the class itself.
And 1st Ed./2nd Ed. magic was not far more powerful than 3rd, it is just the fact that there was so much less magic in 1st/2nd Ed that the use of magic appeared to be more potent...
quote:
Odin was a god of magic and knowledge before all, and always comes out on top. Circe, Merlin, I believe the main protagonist of the Halevala is a spellcaster; the majority of African Epics center around spellcasting over melee; the Mahabharata highlights the supernatural/magical prowess of the epic heroes over all else (and in that culture, deception and illusion are laudable, not wicked). Egyptian mythology is rife with magic spells (Isis resurrecting Osiris, for instance).
I'm no expert on classical mythology but I'm speaking of just of the quote:
heros
, not the gods...Hercules, Jason, Beowulf, Persesus, Arthur, Aladin, Sinbad, Lancelot off the top of my head...they only had their strength or arm and wits themselves...the magic usually came in as supernatural patrons, divine heritage and magical gifts (which is exactly like the fighter and their magical equipment). As you stated before, we are just comparing classes, not the whole package |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:04:58
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I think I was mislead about mainland population. Is it only 9 million?
As for talking about classes I kinda think that belongs in another scroll. I can understand expanding from Elven population to include other races as not straying too far from the idea of just Elven population, to include halflings and draves. Espcially when percentages of population was discussed. Right now based on claims about 76 percent of the population are Drawf, Elf, Half-elf or Halfling, and this just can not be correct. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I think I was mislead about mainland population. Is it only 9 million?
As for talking about classes I kinda think that belongs in another scroll. I can understand expanding from Elven population to include other races as not straying too far from the idea of just Elven population, to include halflings and draves. Espcially when percentages of population was discussed. Right now based on claims about 76 percent of the population are Drawf, Elf, Half-elf or Halfling, and this just can not be correct.
That is what I thought was wrong from the beginning...if not the actual population # of sentients in an area but the racial composition percentages
and yes it has gone off track, I appologize for that...and I hate getting into what is basically debates of opinion  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:23:38
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quote:
If you are just analyzing class then yes, a wizard is more powerful..but then that makes a cleric more powerful than a wizard...and no, powerful magic items are getting pretty common now...and the lesser magical items? they now have "wall-mart like" Thayan Enclaves for all your shopping needs...
Sorry, not going to discuss this if you actually acknowledge the terrible state of the modern Realms.
On one hand, you say there are too many high level fighters. Then you say that for a high level fighter to be on par with a Wizard, they need powerful magic items?
For every one of those powerful magical items made, there are 5 equally powerful Wizards who aren't going to give up their XP to make said items. You really can't have it both ways - you can't have a high magic world and then not have a world dominated by magic...
And out of all of the names we named... only one of them was a God. And, as Jorkens pointed out, the majority of heroes you pointed out were post-Christian. Hercules was an immortal son of Zeus, so you can't count him as a typical Fighter, as was Perseus. Aladdin I would consider a rogue, who had help from a LOT of magic...
It just seems what you're looking for really isn't present in the D&D game (of 2E or 3E) - at least, not the established settings. 2E magic was rarer than 3E, though much more powerful in general (which meant it was even more unlikely for Fighters to survive).
Anyway, I'll quit going OT now, too. :)
PS: Sorry if the above post seems snappy at points - I wasn't trying to be! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 10 Aug 2006 21:28:00 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:29:39
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| Don't drag me into this, those heroes were mentioned after my post and I agree with Kalin on most of those names. Anyway; lets not bog this topic down with this any more than we have. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:29:42
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Humpf! Now dwarf in Tethyr. That explain why they are suffering in the hands of the ogre mage´s armie. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:33:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Humpf! Now dwarf in Tethyr. That explain why they are suffering in the hands of the ogre mage´s armie.
 I think with the "stinger" scorpion men (isn't "stinger" one of the silliest names of a moster that was supposed to be serious?  ) in one of Shanatar's kingdoms the humanoid army in amn is the least of their worries 
And there should be a dwarf presence in Tethyr just for the existance of lost kingdoms of High and Low Shanatar...And now the Army of Gold marching in.. |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 21:38:57
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Apologies, Jorkens. This really is a discussion I'd like to continue, though not quite so much as to make a new thread. ;)
Anyway...
I wonder if 9 million IS the correct (approximate) population of Faerun? Hm. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 10:42:43
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| Yeah it seems a bit more somehow. . . hmmm by the way the maharabahta, the heroes were God blessed not significant spellcasters themselves (in fact Krishna is a God. . well an aspect anyways of one of the 3 main Hindu Gods, Vishnu and Rama is a famous general destined to kill a demon lord) and Ulysses, a crafty non-magical but god-blessed person, beat Circe by tricking her. Oh and Gandalf's powers were derived from the one God (Eru Iluvater, he was actually a kind of angel known as the Maiar, so actually hes kinda a tricked out cleric |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:27:00
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9 million... hmm....
(from FRCS)
Lake of Steam 1,570,752 humans
Amn 2,459,721 humans
Calimshan 5,019,148 humans
Tethyr 2,866,233 humans
just humans, we have 11,915,854 in just those areas. We haven't touched Waterdeep, Cormyr, Dalelands, Sembia, the Moonsea, Silver Marches, Old Empires, Impiltur, etc, etc, ditto, ditto, so on and so forth.
I think the 9 million number is gone.
Mkhaiwati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:33:57
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| How was that 9 million number derived in the first place? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:52:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
How was that 9 million number derived in the first place?
Bad souce, *wink* another posted that the elven population was 25 percent, after doing caculation of all Elves that were listed , mainland population calculated out to about 9 million. I also reduced the percentage to about 6 percent based of that number and subtracted out Elves of Evermeet.
Somebody gave me bad data by claiming the 25 percent. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 11 Aug 2006 17:54:36 |
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Master_Sylvius
Acolyte
Canada
4 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2020 : 16:06:57
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Aglarond
381,024 Half-elves
13,089 Elves
These numbers appear to be off from those presented in the FRCS on page 199: In 1372, elves count for 5% of Aglarond's population of 1,270,080 which would give us 63 504. These appear to only include those living in Aglarond itself (mainly wild elves).
Page 110 of the Unapproachable East might suggest a ratio for elf races in the Yuirwood. Relkar's Foot registers 406 Wild elves for 51 Star Elves. Would we to apply this ratio to the whole elven population of Aglarond, this would give us 56 519 Wild Elves (89% of 63 504) and 6985 Star Elves (11% of 63 504).
No specific entry is made concerning the Star Elf population of Sildeyuir. |
Elves...Bah Humbug! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 09:07:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Master_Sylvius
These numbers appear to be off from those presented in the FRCS on page 199: In 1372, elves count for 5% of Aglarond's population of 1,270,080 which would give us 63 504. These appear to only include those living in Aglarond itself (mainly wild elves).
3e numbers were mostly set to values unrelated to anything before.
quote:
Page 110 of the Unapproachable East might suggest a ratio for elf races in the Yuirwood. Relkar's Foot registers 406 Wild elves for 51 Star Elves. Would we to apply this ratio to the whole elven population of Aglarond, this would give us 56 519 Wild Elves (89% of 63 504) and 6985 Star Elves (11% of 63 504).
You are comparing unrelated values.
After they began to re-refuge out of their hidden refuge? Around 4 dozens who managed to get alive in time from the worst-hit regions makes some sense.
But in the entire last century before they dropped in, the number of Star Elves seen on Faerun was 1 (one). And even then, mostly far from Yuirwood (Sharlarra's stops closest to Aglarond were Rashenmen and Impiltur). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Elven Population (Blackstaff/Final Gate Spoilers)
