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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 16:32:45
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Cough,
Actually that was from my FR faq and I've said that repeatedly for over 5 or six years now but I gave Sage permission to add that to his Keep faq, whenever it sees the light of day. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 11:53:51
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| Events that books etc. tell you in BG or NWN have mostly ''happened'' but the things you can do in f.ex. NWN, may have multiple endings. For example in NWN, you can kill Obould Many-Arrows or let him go. The things you do(or are involded in) in Forgotten Realms games shouldn't be considered as happened in Forgotten Realms. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 21:41:18
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quote:
Originally posted by ode904
Events that books etc. tell you in BG or NWN have mostly ''happened'' but the things you can do in f.ex. NWN, may have multiple endings. For example in NWN, you can kill Obould Many-Arrows or let him go. The things you do(or are involded in) in Forgotten Realms games shouldn't be considered as happened in Forgotten Realms.
The NWN encounter with Obould (and Klauth, for that matter!) was absurd and a good example of why that campaign doesn't make for a good FR "canon". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 21:59:06
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| The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 22:05:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.
So what? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 22:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.
It was an anthology actually, so it's stories would have been and some of them have been included in recent anthologies. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:04:20
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| Also, as far as I know--going by the free-to-view story by Clayton Emery on O-Love's website, as well as the Staff of Valmaxian in Realms of the Elves--the NWN anthology was to be centered around special items found in the official NWN campaign, not the main storyline. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:07:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard
The NWN novel that was supposed to be a tie in to the game would probably have been official if it had been published.
So what?
So what?
Just saying that some of the events in NWN could be canon, but obviously not the over the top ones such as the ones you've mentioned. That's what.
Kuje just indicated that a few stories from the NWN anthology have seen print elsewhere. Those tie ins are likely official. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:26:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Also, as far as I know--going by the free-to-view story by Clayton Emery on O-Love's website, as well as the Staff of Valmaxian in Realms of the Elves--the NWN anthology was to be centered around special items found in the official NWN campaign, not the main storyline.
Now that was something that could have been mentioned earlier. Your assumption seems to be right, Clayton Emery said on his site that the stories were to be clues to finding special items in the game but that was scrapped when the items could be found in stores. I guess that's partly why I mentioned the NWN anthology, in the hopes of learning more, and I have. 
Thank you for mentioning the story. Not every day you hear of something for free that might be of interest. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 23:42:03
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| You're welcome. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 02:49:28
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BG is canon, as there is a series of books dedicated to it.
NWM, umm, I don't think its canon. The HoTU events are just too groundbreaking and the exact dates of the events are unclear.
If there are a series of NWN novels, then I will count it, but right now, it is not canon. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 04:43:40
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The HoTU events are just too groundbreaking...
I keep hearing this, but again, the events of HotU don't affect THAT much. Chapter 1 is just a large dungeon-crawl in the Undermountain, Chapter 2 takes place entirely in the Underdark, and Chapter 3 takes place on another plane entirely. It isn't stated anywhere that the Big Bad Evil Guy razes Waterdeep to the ground--in fact, it's possible that you thwart him only a short time after he started (and come on, it's not like Waterdeep has never seen major, deadly events before).
No major canon NPCs die, unlike the original NWN campaign. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Aug 2006 04:44:45 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 12:09:59
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I seem to recall Durnan becoming lava'd toast at the start of then end-battle. But I didn't really like the HotU-campaign, so I've only played that long and could be far more wrong than a drunk Mel Gibson...
The first part is a rip-off of Steven Schend's 2nd-edition module Stardock, which felt a bit unoriginal to me. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 01:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The HoTU events are just too groundbreaking...
I keep hearing this, but again, the events of HotU don't affect THAT much. Chapter 1 is just a large dungeon-crawl in the Undermountain, Chapter 2 takes place entirely in the Underdark, and Chapter 3 takes place on another plane entirely. It isn't stated anywhere that the Big Bad Evil Guy razes Waterdeep to the ground--in fact, it's possible that you thwart him only a short time after he started (and come on, it's not like Waterdeep has never seen major, deadly events before).
No major canon NPCs die, unlike the original NWN campaign.
Have you ever consitered Planar politics as a factor? Ok, Mephistopheles bascically is trying to drag Toril into hell and make it the tenth layer, something that Asmodeus has sent the Archdevil Gargaunth to do. Asmodeus and Gargauth would be pretty pissed and would most definatly be sending their most powerful servants to deal wih the problem.
Also, Meph has A LOT of enemies in hell. Meph's complete abscence in Cania would spark a huge land grab in Hell. All the archdevils, especially Baalzebul(who has always wanted Cania) would be sending hordes of devils into Cania trying to grab as much land as possible, which will spark M's allies such as Dispater to send forces into Cania as well to prevent Baalzebul's faction from gaining power. Hell's ordered hierarchy would be thrown into turmoil, there will be all out war between the archdevils, Asmodeus would be desparatly trying to keep the peace by calling all of the Blood War forces home to keep the peace.
Then the demons and celestials would see a loophole in hell and try to gain something of their own. And, the prescence of such as powerful planar being on Toril would scare the crap out of the Gods, who would be panicking because Meph got past all their wards and defenses. And no major effect on Toril? One of the greatest cities on Toril is now covered with Molten Lava and swarmed with thousands of evil, hungry souls. You can bet that Khelben and the other NPC's of Waterdeep would be fighting for their lives. You can also be assured that El and the other meddling Uber-NPC's of Toril will stick their noses in this situation.
And you can just imagine the chaos in the Underdark when the already in trouble drow hear of a huge archdevil wandering around slaughtering people and they can't even call on Lolth to help them.
The effects of such a appearance would be catastrophic to not only Toril, but the planes themselves. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 15 Aug 2006 01:33:08 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 03:12:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
I seem to recall Durnan becoming lava'd toast at the start of then end-battle.
Nope, he survives--it's just that during the final battle he is incapacitated. Also, the epilogue I got mentioned him putting up a portrait of my character in the Yawning Portal Inn (that made my day). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 03:13:55
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
And no major effect on Toril? One of the greatest cities on Toril is now covered with Molten Lava and swarmed with thousands of evil, hungry souls.
Don't remember Waterdeep being covered with molten lava (and I have a good memory when it comes to these things). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 18:49:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
And no major effect on Toril? One of the greatest cities on Toril is now covered with Molten Lava and swarmed with thousands of evil, hungry souls.
Don't remember Waterdeep being covered with molten lava (and I have a good memory when it comes to these things).
Considering that there's no visual effects in NWN that can simulate molten lava, it'd be hard for that to happen in the game. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 19:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Have you ever consitered Planar politics as a factor? Ok, Mephistopheles bascically is trying to drag Toril into hell and make it the tenth layer, something that Asmodeus has sent the Archdevil Gargaunth to do. Asmodeus and Gargauth would be pretty pissed and would most definatly be sending their most powerful servants to deal wih the problem.
just to be a little anal about it (as I'v never played NWN) in outer plane/Planescape canon Asmodeus would have never allowed a 10th layer of Hell...he is super lawful as much as super evil and it breaks the Rules-of-Three...I don't think Mephistopheles would ahve even wanted that...
a quick canon fix would be a simple "absorb Toril into a layer of Hell" works better  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 03:02:08
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Have you ever consitered Planar politics as a factor? Ok, Mephistopheles bascically is trying to drag Toril into hell and make it the tenth layer, something that Asmodeus has sent the Archdevil Gargaunth to do. Asmodeus and Gargauth would be pretty pissed and would most definatly be sending their most powerful servants to deal wih the problem.
just to be a little anal about it (as I'v never played NWN) in outer plane/Planescape canon Asmodeus would have never allowed a 10th layer of Hell...he is super lawful as much as super evil and it breaks the Rules-of-Three...I don't think Mephistopheles would ahve even wanted that...
a quick canon fix would be a simple "absorb Toril into a layer of Hell" works better
Well, unless you are a supporter of the theory that he is the avatar of an overgod, I don't think he has the power to stop Meph from making his layer. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 23:59:49
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| Actually, A Guide to Hell established that Asmodeus was/is an elder dragon, one of three that created the Great Wheel, and was then severely beat up by the other two when he tried to take over. The other two were Io (after whom the Blood Isles are named), and a feathered serpent I can't remember. That makes Asmodeus pretty much a supreme being in the Hells (and less so outside them). But I haven't read A Guide to Hell in a long time, so I'll stop here. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 05:19:54
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| Yes. Thank you. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dragon Cultist
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 10:48:15
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Got to thinking about the argument that computer games content is not canon because these games have multiple outcomes. I find this reasoning flawed. I make the comparison to adventure modules. Those have multiple outcomes by definition. In the end WotC makes a write-up (or not) in some sourcebook (see for example the Hellgate Keep timeline) and we collectively shrug off which band of adventurers exactly "ran" the module.
So...why should it matter if the killing of Sarevok at the end of BG1 takes place in a Realmsian Shrödinger Box?
Mind ye, I would not advocate that all computer games be considered canon. I agree that much in these games jars a little (or a lot) with established Realmslore. But then again, in the case of the BG saga, I personally found the events in the novels quite jarring in by themselves. For one thing: who ever heard of one "Abdel Adrian"? IMO it would have been better to leave everyone with the dream that their own party saved the day. How then to write such events up in Realms canon is another discussion I think. (Read: I have no bleeding idea, but am dissatisfied with the middle-of-the-road solution that leaves no one especially happy...) |
"And naught will be left save shattered thrones with no rulers.
But the dead dragons shall rule the world entire..." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 16:36:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Cultist
IMO it would have been better to leave everyone with the dream that their own party saved the day.
Agreed. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Jul 2008 16:37:08 |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 01:08:39
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I'd just like to add my two coppers on the topic, with my trusty copy of Grand History of the Realms.
From p. 153, 1372 DR Year of Wild Magic:
"Tarsakh 30: Citizens of Neverwinter begin falling ill from a plague later known as the Wailing Death. Within a few tendays, most inhabitants of the city are dead or dying."
Likewise, on page 32, the map "Netheril at its Height-THe Golden Age" features Undrentide near the bottom-right hand corner. |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 01:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Daviot
I'd just like to add my two coppers on the topic, with my trusty copy of Grand History of the Realms.
From p. 153, 1372 DR Year of Wild Magic:
"Tarsakh 30: Citizens of Neverwinter begin falling ill from a plague later known as the Wailing Death. Within a few tendays, most inhabitants of the city are dead or dying."
Likewise, on page 32, the map "Netheril at its Height-THe Golden Age" features Undrentide near the bottom-right hand corner.
Yes, I've known about those.
Remember, though--only what's stated is canon. It doesn't mean all the content from those games is canon. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 05:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, I've known about those.
Remember, though--only what's stated is canon. It doesn't mean all the content from those games is canon.
Indeed. As I mentioned a while back on yon post, canon assumes that a PC adventurer didn't gallop about the Sword Coast, offing powerful NPC's in the process.  |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Continuity Issues and NWN
