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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 01:55:27
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Hey all
I don't have the sourcebook that first talked about demons (and devils methinks) having aspects. A couple of questions ...
1) Can an aspect of Demogorgon (for example) be trapped in a mirror of life trapping? What would be the planar ramifications, if any, of such an event were it possible?
2) How many aspects can demons/devils have? Reading the latest Demonomicon article in DRAGON, it seems to imply that they can have several, of differing CR levels. If I cast "planar ally" or "planar binding" do I specify which aspect I'm after (No, not the CR12 one, I was after the CR18 one, Orcus baby!)?
3) Can I call two aspects of Demogorgon (for example) into the same world/locale? Can I call one to Waterdeep, while Nevron calls one to Thay?
4) Are aspects 'real' in the sense that they can breed with humans to create half-fiend progeny?
Thanks for the help.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:12:14
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Hey all
I don't have the sourcebook that first talked about demons (and devils methinks) having aspects. A couple of questions ...
1) Can an aspect of Demogorgon (for example) be trapped in a mirror of life trapping? What would be the planar ramifications, if any, of such an event were it possible?
2) How many aspects can demons/devils have? Reading the latest Demonomicon article in DRAGON, it seems to imply that they can have several, of differing CR levels. If I cast "planar ally" or "planar binding" do I specify which aspect I'm after (No, not the CR12 one, I was after the CR18 one, Orcus baby!)?
3) Can I call two aspects of Demogorgon (for example) into the same world/locale? Can I call one to Waterdeep, while Nevron calls one to Thay?
4) Are aspects 'real' in the sense that they can breed with humans to create half-fiend progeny?
Thanks for the help.
-- George Krashos
The first book to talk about Aspects is the Miniatures Handbook, IIRC. I don't think most of the questions you are asking have really been covered, but I don't have the Miniatures Handbook handy.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:14:35
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From Minis handbook
Aspects
An Aspect is the embodiment of a small portion of an archfiends or deitys lifefore. The original's power is so great that this shred of life force is actually able to take shape as a living creature.....
While aspects are spiritual rather than biological in origin they manifest as actual living creatures. They have consciusness, inteligence and will. They are notoriously single-minded and unwilling to communicate......
Unlike avatars, aspects are not extensions of the orginal. The original cant see through the aspects eyes and doesnt know what the aspect learns. destroying an aspect sometimes weakens the original
by dissipating the aspect's life force and preventing it from being reabsorbed into the original but beyond that, hurting the aspect does not harm the orginal
In answer to Georges questions
1) Yes and there wouldnt really be any planar ramifications other than weakening Demogorgon
2)Potentially unlimited. If there are multiple versions of an Aspect than you will have to check the Aspects stats to see if you can summon that Aspect with the spell
PHB rules for Planar spells
Lesser Planar ally and lesser planar binding: Creature summoned must have HD 6 or less
Planar Ally and Planar binding: Summoned Creature must have 12 HD or less
Greater Planar Ally and Planar Binding greater: Summoned creature must have 18 HD or less
3)Yes
4) Probably not as aspects are spiritual more than biological there not likely to be diverted into sexual encounters |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 18 Jul 2006 02:33:59 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:47:01
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Thanks for that. Hmm, so if we want a half-fiend with Orcus as his daddy, then we got to get old Orcus himself to do the deed. Ick. 
Good thing he's always horny - literally of course. Certainly gives more meaning to the term "Wand of Orcus".
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:57:12
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Its not totally unheard of Paul Kemp introduced a character whose Father was an Arch Devil in his Erevis Cale novels. Then theres this article on WOTC site
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20030305a
The Demon worshipers of Narfel may well have bred with a Summoned Orcus (Hey if getting it on with demons is good enough for kinky female Drow clerics) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 03:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
4) Probably not as aspects are spiritual more than biological there not likely to be diverted into sexual encounters
I'm not sure I agree with this. It makes sense with me but I'd like to know what an avatar truely is then.
I see an avatar as a full shadow of the power, a god who has lessened it's divinity so it can enter the prime
I see an aspect as an even weaker version of the power, a lesser avatar that only represents one side/part of it's portfolio, a half-shadow per say.
If an avatar can produce a half-child then couldn't an aspect?
Another question is if in the Legends and Lore 3.0 (or whatever it's called) a power's divinity score lessens by 1 for every proxy it has...shouldn't an avatar and aspect have a divine cost too? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 03:36:59
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| An Avatar has the ability to think and reason it can neogate and lead others. Aspects dont think they just "do" they summoned for a specfic purpose by a powerful cleric or Wizard and they do there job (Which would usually be "Kill this meddling party of adventurers!) and then the Asspect disipate |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 04:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
4) Probably not as aspects are spiritual more than biological there not likely to be diverted into sexual encounters
Of course, if the original is known for some form of sexual gratification (lust, rape, etc), then the aspect would likely be willing -- and it might even be its purpose! -- to be sidetracked by a romp in the hay. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 04:15:14
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I wouldn't exactly say that they "can't" think. Rereading the entry, essentially, aspects are short lived creatures born out of a powerful singular or godly creature's power. In general, the Miniatures Handbook does state that an aspect represents one aspect (hence the name) of the god or planar creatures portfolios. It tends to be single minded, focusing on reasoning all things through the filter of the aspect of the creature that spawned the creature.
I wouldn't say that no aspect would be distracted by sexual encounters. Once of Lolth's aspects is the seductress, and I imagine Grazz'zt has spawned aspects that revolve around seduction or domination as well. As for offspring . . . female aspects aren't likely to have any offspring, since aspects usually only last for about a day or so, but male ones certainly have time to "breed" while they are in existance.
Aspects don't drain a deities power because they are not connected to the deity once they are spawned. The deity cannot automatically see and hear through its aspect, and the aspect has no ability to to "uplink" to the creature that spawned it. Essentially they are just short lived outsiders that resemble the creature that they "spun off" from.
I can picture ruling that an aspect may not be able to have a child, since they only exist for a short while, but then again, I can also see the offspring being essentially the same as any other "part" outsider race. Perhaps an aspect would produce an aasimar or tiefling where a true, longer lived outsider would produce half fiends, half celestials, etc.
So, taking all of this into account, I would say the following:
1) If the means to trap an aspect would put a creature into "suspended animation" I could see an aspect being trapped, but if the means of trapping the creature allows it to age, then it would likely just disapate after about a day or so (note, the Miniatures Handbook is a little vague on exactly how long as aspect lasts. Perhaps a demon lord's would last a day, while an aspect of Talos might survive almost a tenday before disapating, but they are suppose to be short lived).
2) There is no real limit to how many aspect a creature has, since the aspect doesn't automatically serve the creature that spawned it (though they think like it and act like it in regards to one of the creature's portfolios). I think that to answer your planar ally question, the one you get would likely be the one whose "aspect" matches your intent for them. For example, if you want to summon an aspect of Kostchichie expressly for combat, you would likely get the aspect of Rage, which might be higher CR than the aspect of, oh, Misogyny, or the aspect of Strength.
3) There can be more than one aspect on the same plane, but if they are too close to one another, they are likely to attack one another, regardless of the alignment of the original creature, as per the top paragraph, second column of the Miniatures Handbook, page 47.
4) I'm not really sure about this. See above, I could be convinced either way.
As a final note, the way the aspect is created sounds more like the power to create the aspect is more from the outer plane that the creature lives on, or from the power of the spell that calls the aspect itself, rather than from the deity/singular outsider.
Then again, all of this is just my interpretation of what I read in the Minis Handbook, which is probably the most detailed info about what they heck they are, outside of the descriptions given for the various demon lord aspects in Dragon. |
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thom
Seeker
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 20:37:23
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thanks for that. Hmm, so if we want a half-fiend with Orcus as his daddy, then we got to get old Orcus himself to do the deed. Ick.
Why can't you have a high level Wizard who worships Orcus cast FiendForm on a minion? As a DM I'd be willing to tailor that specific casting of the spell to include specific powers from Orcus, since the Wizard could "shape" the spell accordingly. Not exactly canon, but reasonable IMHO |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 20:46:03
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... So you'd have an offspring that looked like Orcus with a few of his powers?
I think he was going for something a little more dramatic - but maybe not! :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 04:05:54
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| George, this may be too late for whatever you were planning, but now that we have more aspect information via Dragon Magic, accoriding to Pg 110 of Dragon Magic, there is a sample encounter with an aspect of Tiamat that apparently stuck around long enough to have children, have them grown, and gain a blue dragon follower. This seems contradictory to how aspects were originally presented, but just wanted to let you know an official source has an aspect of Tiamat as having children. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 04:31:11
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I totally did not see this thread!
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I wouldn't say that no aspect would be distracted by sexual encounters. Once of Lolth's aspects is the seductress, and I imagine Grazz'zt has spawned aspects that revolve around seduction or domination as well. As for offspring . . . female aspects aren't likely to have any offspring, since aspects usually only last for about a day or so, but male ones certainly have time to "breed" while they are in existance.
I'm glad the example of Grazzt came up -- the creature who appears in my Realms of the Elves novella may indeed be the demon lord himself or an aspect. More likely, it is an aspect or proxy of some sort for the Dark Prince, though it isn't unheard of for Grazzt to visit (conjugally, of course) young eager converts.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 16:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I totally did not see this thread!
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I wouldn't say that no aspect would be distracted by sexual encounters. Once of Lolth's aspects is the seductress, and I imagine Grazz'zt has spawned aspects that revolve around seduction or domination as well. As for offspring . . . female aspects aren't likely to have any offspring, since aspects usually only last for about a day or so, but male ones certainly have time to "breed" while they are in existance.
I'm glad the example of Grazzt came up -- the creature who appears in my Realms of the Elves novella may indeed be the demon lord himself or an aspect. More likely, it is an aspect or proxy of some sort for the Dark Prince, though it isn't unheard of for Grazzt to visit (conjugally, of course) young eager converts.
Cheers
Is the likeliness of his personal appearance direction proportinal to the attractiveness of the convert? |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 16:20:44
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Is the likeliness of his personal appearance direction proportinal to the attractiveness of the convert?
ewwww...
that means the ugly converts get no personal attention!
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 20:22:58
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Is the likeliness of his personal appearance direction proportinal to the attractiveness of the convert?
ewwww...
that means the ugly converts get no personal attention!
On the contrary -- I imagine Grazzt is a sexy beast of infinitely various tastes, and he's got lots of time (amongst other things) for beings of all shapes, sizes, proportions, diseases, and affiliations, and always either appears as himself, whatever the convert might want, or whatever he wants, being capricious and whimsical in his role-playing.
If, KEJR, you're speaking of the convert in question in my story. . . let's just say Grazzt was pretty s**** that evening.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 19:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm glad the example of Grazzt came up -- the creature who appears in my Realms of the Elves novella may indeed be the demon lord himself or an aspect. More likely, it is an aspect or proxy of some sort for the Dark Prince, though it isn't unheard of for Grazzt to visit (conjugally, of course) young eager converts.
Cheers
Well, since I see Graz'zt as a descendant of the 'Black Man' who ran witches' sabbats in European legendry, and of Nyarlothotep, both of whom were decidedly randy... it does sound like his kind of thing.
And like Mister De Bie I figured he'd prefer an aspect over putting in an appearance himself. After all, he's a very busy demon lord. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 13:53:00
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BTW, FC I has some notes on aspects, as does (apparently, the Web-enhancement to FC II
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070216a |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
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Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 16:04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Is the likeliness of his personal appearance direction proportinal to the attractiveness of the convert?
ewwww...
that means the ugly converts get no personal attention!
On the contrary -- I imagine Grazzt is a sexy beast of infinitely various tastes, and he's got lots of time (amongst other things) for beings of all shapes, sizes, proportions, diseases, and affiliations, and always either appears as himself, whatever the convert might want, or whatever he wants, being capricious and whimsical in his role-playing.
If, KEJR, you're speaking of the convert in question in my story. . . let's just say Grazzt was pretty s**** that evening.
Cheers
Grazzt was Silly that evening? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 16:26:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Grazzt was Silly that evening?
Heh. As I wrote that reply two and a half years ago, I haven't the least idea what I meant to say. So let's go with that.
I wonder whatever happened to Cythara and her fiendish liaison . . .
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 17:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder whatever happened to Cythara and her fiendish liaison . . .
Cheers
Does Graz'zt pay child support for his half-fiend spawn? 
Hmm, slightly more seriously, I wonder -- would a half-fiend sired by a demon lord or archdevil be more powerful than one spawned by your garden variety fiend? |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 17:57:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
BTW, FC I has some notes on aspects, as does (apparently, the Web-enhancement to FC II
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070216a
There's also the Expedition to the Demonweb Pits hardcover, which lists several more demonic aspects (Yeenoghu, Obox-Ob, and Graz'zt).
I do wonder, though, why they gave Graz'zt's aspect the ability to hurl eldritch blasts like a warlock, but when he got written up later in his 'true form' for that last Demonomicon article he didn't get the ability? I'd think that if any demon lord went in for warlock pacts, it would be the Dark Man. |
Edited by - Ardashir on 14 Feb 2009 18:07:33 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 22:56:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder whatever happened to Cythara and her fiendish liaison . . .
Cheers
Does Graz'zt pay child support for his half-fiend spawn?
Only when he knows for sure that it's one of his.
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 23:53:01
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Pffft. Graz'zt is a demon... chaotic evil. Of course he doesn't pay his child support.
Now, Asmodeus on the other hand... |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Ifthir
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2009 : 00:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Can I call one to Waterdeep, while Nevron calls one to Thay?
Hmm. Unholy spoiler below.
I don't think Nevron will be calling one anyone anytime soon ;) |
Edited by - Ifthir on 14 Feb 2009 00:05:29 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 03:57:39
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Ahem. To return to our sheep ...
I have wondered just where the heck "Atropal Scions" (see Libris Mortis and Unclean) come from. Aspects seem like a good source: there are probably hordes of part-Orcus spawn in the Bloodstone Lands whom "heroes" hunt down (probably slaughtering women/she-orcs/whatever who are gravid with them) The Bhaalspawn were more likely sired by an aspect than an avatar, and given the savagery of the genocide against them, a few Atropal Scions may have arisen from the ashes.
But as Montaigne said, "what do I know?"
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Demonic Aspects in the Realms
