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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 22:24:00
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Well met
Of late, I have noticed a considerable level of negativity here at Candlekeep. Especially with a number of the latest releases from WotC, where scribes are constantly attacking elements of the products and novels. IMO, this has gone too far and gotten out of hand. Take a step back before posting and think how your post may affect other fans of the Realms and the general atmosphere of these forums.
We're all Forgotten Realms fans afterall and we should all be together happily discussing our beloved hobby. Some scribes simply aren't happy no matter what comes out of the FR stable... if you're this unhappy with WotC FR products and nothing pleases you anymore then isn't it simply time to move on to another system or setting? The authors and designers work extremely hard to produce tales and material to please us all, no easy task i'm sure, and we should praise them for their work.
Now, let's please try and be positive and ENJOY discussing the Realms between ourselves herein. We're all on the same side...remember?!
Kuje's Edit: I thought that this might deserved to be sticky'd for awhile. :)
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Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Edited by - Kuje on 27 Jun 2006 23:46:36
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 22:48:11
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| The thing is, tough, Alaundo, if a product is seen as disappointing or somesuch of the matter, fans should be allowed to criticize and express feelings on it in a constructive manner. I believe the authors are all adults and able to take criticism... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 22:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
The thing is, tough, Alaundo, if a product is seen as disappointing or somesuch of the matter, fans should be allowed to criticize and express feelings on it in a constructive manner. I believe the authors are all adults and able to take criticism...
I agree and I've been trying to get this point across privetely and publically but I decided that it wasn't worth my time argueing about. And lately it's caused me to rethink if I ever want to post anything about sourcebooks or novels. So, you'll never see me really give my thoughts in the book club because I don't want to give my thoughts on novels or sourcebooks. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 27 Jun 2006 23:27:32 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 22:57:14
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I'm with Kuje and Ethriel. Aren't we all (or mostly) adults? I come here to express my opinion about things regarding a setting I love--good and bad.
Can you actually name someone who is "never pleased" by anything about the Realms? If so, why would they be here to begin with?
If the designers are purposely "trying to please all" (not saying they are), I think that's a problem right there. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Jun 2006 22:58:35 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 22:57:46
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Being fans doesn't -- and shouldn't -- mean being yes-men. You can be a fan of something while still able to see, and acknowledge, the flaws; nothing, after all, is perfect. And the worst thing, IMO, you can do to an artist (or a writer, or whatever) is to feed him/her mindless flattery. The worst sin a writer can commit is becoming bloated with his/her own ego (and when said writer is that way, it's unlikely he/she will produce worthwhile works).
As long as it remains constructive and doesn't dissolve into flaming rows/personal attacks/etc, I don't see the problem. Authors should have thick skin -- it's part and parcel of their profession. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 27 Jun 2006 23:00:30 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:14:22
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Well met
Indeed. My point is that people are all too eager to shout out about what they don't like and rarely speak up about things they do. Many people will read a book and think "yeah that book was great, I enjoyed it"... the keyword there being "think". On the other hand, if they didn't like the book, it tends to be "i'm gonna get on that forum and tell everyone that this book sucks".
Fine, if you have critism, then share it. If you have praise, share it also. You can't please everyone all of the time, but some people are never pleased, which goes back to my initial statement. If an author does a good job, then what's the harm in letting him\her know? To be worried about inflating their ego?! If an author never hears the good points of their book and only ever receives "contructive critism" then I say what's the point in that... doesn't sound so appealing and desirable to be an author to me, in that case.
Most of the fault lies in the way that critism is delivered. My aim is not to supress any critism, but to think about the way it is written and how you may come across. We have already seen some examples of how a few wrongly worded statements have prevented others from even looking at the book. One persons view is entirely different from anothers and bad vibes are easily spread and can get out of control. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:14:34
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It is more about how one posts, I think. War of the Spider Queen got some very negitive comments last year IIRC. The tree of Souls (two of them) was a recent discussion I read a few times.
Products released by WotC that change canon clearly deserve comment, IMO, and every change can not be viewed an improvement. Some are clearly errors allowed though because conitunity editor (if there is one) missed the error. Design changes from 2nd to 3rd also can be a place where not all are fans on. Loving the Realms becomes more of a problem when the realms change on the fans that are gathered here.
Examples of a complaint was a 10th level spell becoming an epic level spell, which in effect negates Mystra's ban on 10th level magic. There again there might be some fans that did not like that ban in the first place. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 27 Jun 2006 23:16:22 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:26:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
It is more about how one posts, I think. War of the Spider Queen got some very negitive comments last year IIRC. The tree of Souls (two of them) was a recent discussion I read a few times.
Products released by WotC that change canon clearly deserve comment, IMO, and every change can not be viewed an improvement. Some are clearly errors allowed though because conitunity editor (if there is one) missed the error. Design changes from 2nd to 3rd also can be a place where not all are fans on. Loving the Realms becomes more of a problem when the realms change on the fans that are gathered here.
Examples of a complaint was a 10th level spell becoming an epic level spell, which in effect negates Mystra's ban on 10th level magic. There again there might be some fans that did not like that ban in the first place.
Quite right, Kentinal, that was my point. And a good example too. WotSQ did receive some critism, particular concerning a certain drow mage. Some of the comments were downright disrespectful. Why!? No problems with the writing style etc. just that some fans didn't want this particular thing to happen... that's the type of wrong negativity and badly worded feedback that I dislike. Scenes from Misery spring to mind! |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
Indeed. My point is that people are all too eager to shout out about what they don't like and rarely speak up about things they do. Many people will read a book and think "yeah that book was great, I enjoyed it"... the keyword there being "think". On the other hand, if they didn't like the book, it tends to be "i'm gonna get on that forum and tell everyone that this book sucks".
I think that's mostly human nature. In my personal experience, people are more likely to be provoked and moved to action by a negative experience than a positive one. Happy/fun experiences are often simply enjoyed--not-so-great experiences drive one to communicate (or more).
Besides, are there more negative comments here than positive ones, or do the negative comments (or at least, the uncivil ones) simply get more attention? In fact, doesn't that sort of prove my point? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Jun 2006 23:41:05 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Quite right, Kentinal, that was my point. And a good example too. WotSQ did receive some critism, particular concerning a certain drow mage. Some of the comments were downright disrespectful. Why!? No problems with the writing style etc. just that some fans didn't want this particular thing to happen... that's the type of wrong negativity and badly worded feedback that I dislike.
The fact that some people didn't like what happened in the novel, or the way some people expressed their opinion? Both?
Your wording is a little unclear, here...
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Jun 2006 23:42:52 |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:45:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
Indeed. My point is that people are all too eager to shout out about what they don't like and rarely speak up about things they do. Many people will read a book and think "yeah that book was great, I enjoyed it"... the keyword there being "think". On the other hand, if they didn't like the book, it tends to be "i'm gonna get on that forum and tell everyone that this book sucks".
I think that's mostly human nature. In my personal experience, people are more likely to be provoked and moved to action by a negative experience than a positive one. Happy/fun experiences are often simply enjoyed--not-so-great experiences drive one to communicate (or more).
Sadly, indeed it is the case. One of the reasons for the Book Club was to entice some positive comments from reading FR novels. Looking back at a vast majority of past book club threads, there are some great comments within and many readers have written comments of their enjoyment of the novels and highlighted certain scenes or elements.
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Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:49:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Quite right, Kentinal, that was my point. And a good example too. WotSQ did receive some critism, particular concerning a certain drow mage. Some of the comments were downright disrespectful. Why!? No problems with the writing style etc. just that some fans didn't want this particular thing to happen... that's the type of wrong negativity and badly worded feedback that I dislike.
The fact that some people didn't like what happened in the novel, or the way some people expressed their opinion? Both?
Your wording is a little unclear, here...
The way in which it was expressed. As I said, some of the comments were downright disrespectful in reaction to the event in the novel.
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Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:50:53
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People mentioned novels they enjoyed before the Book Club started, as well. 
Perhaps the current mood here isn't as bad as you think it is? Either that, or did I miss some huge flamewar somewhere? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Jun 2006 23:51:14 |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:53:23
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| It was more the matter of how it was done, the writing, the reasoning and the OOCness behind it all that brought all that on |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
People mentioned novels they enjoyed before the Book Club started, as well.
Perhaps the current mood here isn't as bad as you think it is? Either that, or did I miss some huge flamewar somewhere?
The mood has certainly changed over the past few months, IMHO, but it's not all bad, perhaps i'm being too negative  On the whole, there are some great posts and subjects here on a daily basis, but it takes just one thread to get out of hand to spoil the day 
Flamewar... there have been some incidents. Luckily we have a lightning-fast team of moderators for such occassions  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 00:01:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
The mood has certainly changed over the past few months, IMHO.
Flamewar... there have been some incidents. Luckily we have a lightning-fast team of moderators for such occassions
I think so too, and that's a good thing. But I hope the forum doesn't become so heavily policed that people become afraid to make their opinions known. That's another way a forum can become less fun. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 00:02:37
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Truth be told, if I'm asked to discuss a novel/song/whathaveyou I will look at it in its entirety and not just a small fraction of it. I certainly do not have the skills of a trained musician but I know what I like and dislike, same goes for novels or sourcebooks. Although I certainly have more experience in the latter two since I write and DM/game. It's usually the bad parts that get mentioned. Why? Because they are easier to pinpoint, if it's a flaw in continuity you can put the finger to it.
Am I a fan? Certainly, but I will never be a yes-sayer to everything; I admit to breezing through novels occasionally, and I doubt I'll ever go through a chapter by chapter analysis, unless I am specifically asked by the author. And if I think the work sucks I make it known.
We are here to share lore of the Realms, yet we do not have access to all sources; and NDAs strike repeatedly. When I perceive a fault in a book of any kind, I wanna point it out, if we cannot do that (and I don't mean death threats because some character or other has been killed off) what is the point?
There will always be whiners, and even an age check would not keep those away. Trolls do regenerate and unfortunately we lack the fire to keep them out.
Being critical is not a sin, for me as a writer criticism is a gift because only through this I can get closer to the core of the story and polish my 'art'. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 00:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
The mood has certainly changed over the past few months, IMHO.
Flamewar... there have been some incidents. Luckily we have a lightning-fast team of moderators for such occassions
I think so too, and that's a good thing. But I hope the forum doesn't become so heavily policed that people become afraid to make their opinions known. That's another way a forum can become less fun.
Not at all, Rinonalyrna. I'm sure that the authors\designers welcome comments on elements of their books which aren't gelling with the fans, it helps them on their future developments... let's just be polite, respectful and nice about delivering that message. That's all I ask |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 00:08:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Not at all, Rinonalyrna. I'm sure that the authors\designers welcome comments on elements of their books which aren't gelling with the fans, it helps them on their future developments... let's just be polite, respectful and nice about delivering that message. That's all I ask
Understood. Just keep in mind that making "negative" comments doesn't make one a negative forum goer. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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riverc0il
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 00:43:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
The thing is, tough, Alaundo, if a product is seen as disappointing or somesuch of the matter, fans should be allowed to criticize and express feelings on it in a constructive manner. I believe the authors are all adults and able to take criticism...
i second this comment. it seems most comments critical of the realms, novels, or authors receive a severe tongue lashing and/or lock down. while i will agree that there is a right and wrong way to deliver critism (it most certainly should not be hateful, vulger, or critisize an author personally instead of their work i.e. ad hominem attack), criticism and announcing personal dissatiscation with a particular product, novel, or direction of WotC should not be considered "negative". if everyone agreed about everything, what would be the point of having a discussion board? dissenting opinions and difference is the spice of life. as winterfox pointed out, using this forum as a cheerleading squad for the authors and not allowing critical opinion does no favors to the authors or the realms. also, as another poster mentioned, if we didn't care about the realms and really enjoy reading about the realms, why would we bother coming to this forum and posting in the first place? i love the realms and have given props on this board to authors who have written some great stories (EC and PK come to mind immediately). but if i plunked down $6.99 (or $23.99 for a HC) and didn't feel i got my monies worth, i appreciate having an outlet to pronounce my dissatisfaction. i think this forum would benefit from a little more leeway in discenting opinion. as seen in most realms books, the world isn't always roses, so i don't see the big deal of negative commentary if done in a respectful manner. |
-steve |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 01:38:35
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Riverc0il, I'd like to ask you to back your words up. Show me all of these threads that are being locked down, or where negative posters are tongue-lashed. I know for a fact that this is not a common occurrence. I myself sometimes go weeks without having to put on my moderator hat.
There are a number of thread with negative comments in them. Very few of them get any kind of moderator attention, and fewer still of those get locked. I can easily find scores, if not hundreds, of negative comments that were not acted on by moderators. I've made some of these negative comments myself -- for example, I've never been a huge fan of Ed's fiction, and I've held reasonable discussions with him about problems I've had with his stuff.
We are not asking everyone to be a cheerleading squad. We are simply asking that any negative comments be constructive and courteous. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Jun 2006 01:40:05 |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 02:45:43
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Sages and fellow readers,
I am still realtively new here at Candlekeep, but I would like to share a few thoughts. One of the things I think draws readers here, aside from the tremendous amount of knowledge, access, and resources, is the extreme tolerance that shown by the moderators.
My exodus to Candlekeep from another well-known place of Realms reading was primarily because of this notion of tolerance. (That place gave me a 'warning' after my very first post in regards to a question on game timelines and novels...after that I left and have never returned.)
In my time here I can recall only seeing one thread locked, and it was done so by the moderator who had started it as the Sage in question had felt it got to far off topic.
However, after reading master Aluando's post, I did some self reflection and perhaps have been a bit 'negative' in my posts of late. I know that it is easy to get swept up in 'moods' both negative and positive.
As someone who is here to both learn and contribute in some manner, I will take master Alaundo's suggestion and I will make a valid attempt to be less negative in future posts...however should I have a relapse you are all welcome to strike me hard with a big stick 
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 04:42:07
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Well met.
After reading posts of late, I find myself sharing Alaundo's sentiment. I do believe that these forums should be honest and constructive for WotC designers and writers, though scribes should perhaps self-moderate the way they direct their comments to them.
I notice that most of the responses to Alaundo's request were basically telling him to back off and allow people to say what they want. The gist of his statement wasn't to tell people not to be critical, but to think before they post, having consideration for the person on the recieving end of your diatribe. I am quite sure that if you were looking these creative, well-meaning people in the eye, the words you typed while sitting in the comfort of your own home would not pass your lips.
I share the belief that people should be able to share their concerns, but just remember that a person who has put countless hours into a project doesn't need to be defecated upon when their toil comes to fruition. If they have erred, please point it out. It seems, in my humble opinion, that occasionally people are a little thoughtless in how they word their opinions. This certainly doesn't apply to everyone. Many of the critiques are very polite and respectful. Some are not. Alaundo is addressing everyone, ensuring that those few get the message. Not everyone needs to get their back up. If you are not guilty of flaming some poor writer, then just go to another topic, as this probably wasn't meant for you. If you are guilty of it, just please be nice.
My regards, dera fellow Realms-goers. |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 04:46:42
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I Agree.
Well I am even newer than Chyron, but I have lurked around here long enough. There is nothing wrong with cordially giving a negative opinion, but when it becomes repetitive and in the end takes the form of something near conspirational theories it get a little tiresome. Lately there has been more of this than usual.
To be honest, I don't think the general mood has been that negative lately, but there are a couple of treads that has gotten more than its share.
When it comes to the moderators I can not see that there has been any cases where threads have been locked for people stating negative opinions for several months, and in those cases the moderators were right. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 28 Jun 2006 04:52:18 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 04:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Conlon
I notice that most of the responses to Alaundo's request were basically telling him to back off and allow people to say what they want.
...Not quite. I am in favor of people being able to say what they want so long as they are polite about it. There is an important difference there.
As for telling Alaundo to "back off!", well, that wasn't my intent either. I know from experience that he is a nice guy, and the moderators here seem fairly lenient to me. However, I saw the direction the WotC boards went in (any post that might vaguely be about novels gets a strict warning), and I'd really hate to see the administration of Candlekeep acquire that kind of mentality. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 06:49:48
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Perahps some examples might help to illustrate this. I think nearly everyone has been unhappy and posted something that was "negative," in the sense that it was saying they did not like a given product. Since nearly everyone has done this, its easy to take comments about the mood getting too negative as an indictment of one's own action. This is not what I beleive what our esteemed Alaundo was trying to say. Don't say that you like something you didn't, and don't be afraid to say that you didn't like something. However, there are differences between saying that you didn't like a given product or novel, and being offensive to those that might have written/designed that product, as well as misrepresenting a given product as perhaps more negative than you honestly felt it was.
Some of this is natural. When you say that you didn't like X, and the next poster is almost dismissive about your concerns, and you feel that your opinion isn't being taken seriously, its easy to want to post, more vehemently, that you really didn't like X. But all that is really done in this case is to effectively make a multiple post in hopes that your opinion might be taken more seriously. On the other hand, when you see something like this, if you elaborate on why you disliked X, in a manner that might not only explain your opinion, but might bring up points that other scribes might find helpful, that is constructive.
Another trap that we fall into is to ascribe motivation to others when we have no evidence of said motivation. To say that product X didn't do much for you is one thing, to say that product X was horrible and was only put out on the market to make money by EvilGameCo is like saying that all of the designers that worked on product X didn't put in hard work and talent. When you say that you didn't like novel Y, that's fine. When you say that novel Y is not good and that the author of Y just didn't care about any other authors when they wrote it is ascribing motives that you really don't know about. I am quite certain that often times there a lot more circumstances that occur on a given project that we have no idea about, and it can be very insulting when someone assumes they know exactly what happened. Think about it in your own life, do you get more upset if someone says that, for example, you haven't been performing up to expectations, or do you get more upset if someone says you are lazy and don't care about your job? The first tells you how the speaker interprets facts as they measure them, the second is ascribing motives to you without any input from you.
Also, being mindful of the overuse of hyperbole is very important. If you want to say that you were disappointed in product X, that's sufficient to get across your point. If you say that product X is the worst product to ever be put out, that's hyperbole and its not something that can normally be proven. Saying that something published in X contradicts something that was in Y, and you don't like that is one thing. Saying that the person that wrote X is a hack or doesn't care about the setting is another. Most of the time, the statement itself is enough to make your point.
While you can make your point by simply making a statement, explaining what would have made you happy instead would be even more helpful. This is constructive, and is something that a designer or author might notice and actually take to heart. But if the critisism is too broad, or is filled with hyperbole, they are likely to just skim over it, if it doesn't infuriate them and cause them to just log off.
Comments that have to do with professionalism should really be avoided. Saying that so and so didn't extend someone else professional courtesy is not fair, since you don't know the situation. Saying that author or designer X shouldn't get paid for their work is a direct insult to them and the work they have done. There is even a positive and a negative way to phrase things regarding your favorites. Saying that designer X is your favorite isn't likely to bother anyone, but saying that designer Y isn't as good as designer X, which can, effectively, be saying the same thing, is doing so in a manner that is more combative and confrontational. Keep this in mind: You are commenting on your hobby, but you are also commenting on their job. Yes, our dollars pay to keep the hobby moving, but at the same time, this is what you do to relax, but for others, this is what pays the bills. Think of how well you would take someone making very broad statements critisising your job, then think about what you post in regards to the professionalism of a given author or designer.
The authors and designers are part of this place as much as the scribes, and not one of them gets paid to hang out and talk to folks on Candlekeep. Please remember this when they are kind enough to come here and share their thoughts. Its not about lying about your real feelings, or about trying to be phoney, but it is about being respectful, not just of the authors and designers, but of the other scribes that may want to have a well reasoned discussion with them, and may want to make sure that Candlekeep is a place they are willing to come back to.
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 12:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
The mood has certainly changed over the past few months, IMHO.
Flamewar... there have been some incidents. Luckily we have a lightning-fast team of moderators for such occassions
I think so too, and that's a good thing. But I hope the forum doesn't become so heavily policed that people become afraid to make their opinions known. That's another way a forum can become less fun.
Not at all, Rinonalyrna. I'm sure that the authors\designers welcome comments on elements of their books which aren't gelling with the fans, it helps them on their future developments... let's just be polite, respectful and nice about delivering that message. That's all I ask
This place is one of the most well-mannered and intelligent places for commentary I've found online, and I always enjoy my time spent here.
That said, here's a common example (not from here but other places) as to what Alaundo's getting at--If you want your opinions heard, comment on the work, not the writer.
If you think a situation in a book is stupid, say that; don't say "[This author] is stupid!"
All authors want feedback, but that sort of thing shuts us off from taking in any other cogent points you might have. After all, you're commenting on us, not the works. Keep the focus where it should go, and much more can be gotten from it.
If you want to know why a certain choice or decision was made in a narrative or sourcebook, ask us. If we're not bound by NDAs or other reasons, we'll be happy to peel back the shadows and show you some of the man behind the curtain. (But if it's Ed, just don't ask why he wears fishnets without shaving his legs.  )
I'm looking forward to any and all comments on my first novel or other works, both the good and the bad. But there's only a handful people on this board who know me well enough to make personal comments about me (and they're kind enough to save those for personal email).
Thanks again, Alaundo and all ye kind moderators, for making this place a great resource and community. It's as kindly as Mother Tathlorn's and cheerful as the Beer Golem, but with slightly more interesting topics more often.
Steven
Thick-skinned enough to take comments of all stripes, politely |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 12:43:22
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Ah, but what if you actually think that something is the worst product ever? I might actually be tempted to argue that if we had run a Book Club about RotA (fortunately, we didn't). Sometimes hyperbole isn't.
And let's face it: we're all a bit more "fanatical" than your average Realms fan. The very fact that we're sought out an FR board and post illustrates this. It therefore follows that we feel stronger about the setting, and strong attatchment can often lead to emotional outbursts.
I'm not going to pretend that I read every thread here, so I can't give a complete overview of all threads, but I've only seen a few threads that were excessively negative, and even those (currently anything related to Final Gate fits this) still have a large amount of positive.
Personally, I'm not sure we can say the mood has shifted, or there's been a spate of products that annoy us, or both. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 12:46:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
The thing is, tough, Alaundo, if a product is seen as disappointing or somesuch of the matter, fans should be allowed to criticize and express feelings on it in a constructive manner. I believe the authors are all adults and able to take criticism...
That's the sentiment that someone expressed to me regarding "The Final Gate." As I tried to tell them at the time, it wasn't the author that I was worried so much about as the moderators on this board.
Thus, at least now it's out in the open. If you dislike an FR work, please keep it to yourself.
SB |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 12:59:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I'm not going to pretend that I read every thread here, so I can't give a complete overview of all threads, but I've only seen a few threads that were excessively negative, and even those (currently anything related to Final Gate fits this) still have a large amount of positive.
And even then I haven't seen anything that personally attacks the author, Richard Baker. You want to see harsh and angry? Try tracking down a log of Anne Rice's Blood Canticle Amazon reviews. What we have on this forum is downright mild. (Even I -- who am no doubt marked as one of those people more prone to express negative opinions mroe often than not -- mustered no stronger responses to the Last Mythal books than "this is all so... bland.") I don't really see a shift in moods, here. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 13:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Being fans doesn't -- and shouldn't -- mean being yes-men.
The fact that some members will interpret Alaundo's post in that manner shows how, in my opinion, careless it was to make this post regarding Candlekeep's mood.
Moreover, when it comes to recent FR novels, I'm at a loss for this "considerable level of negativity." Unless the quote means any negative comments at all. For every product that received any negative comments I'm sure there will be many positive comments from a good number of satisfied fans.
Are we going to ask such fans to tone down these positive posts if they get out of hand? Some of them seem to like every product that WOTC publishes for the FR line. These posters might need to take a step back and see how such overwhelming enthusiasm could affect other fans who weren't totally happy with the work being discussed. |
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Current mood at Candlekeep
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