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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 17:18:09
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Hi guys.
The name Graz'zt came up several times in game, and it got me wondering, why is Graz'zt CE aligned? I mean he values organization, creatively spreads his influence through his kids, and even tempered (whitch that bound him is not dead, shows pacticality). Now contrast it with Mephestopheles, the guy has huge mood swings (charachteristic of chaos), and in general more unstable and inconsitent (to infest dominion of cold loving creatrues with helfire, alientanes and relocates them). It seems that Graz'zt more of a LE than Meph is. Seems odd for a Demon Prince... shouldn't he get booted, if no by others, then by the plane itself?
It seems about the only chaotic thing he does is having wild sex orgies, but devils don't shy away from those either. How does he keep his alignment?
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The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
Edited by - keijemon on 18 Jun 2006 17:20:28
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 17:54:17
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You said it, demon prince. Demons are by default CE. He is most likely the most NE of all the demon lords ...
There are more default alignment rulings, many taken from the more strict on that matter AD&D settings. Elven and drow deities, for example. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 19:04:55
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| Nothing in the CE alignment precludes careful planning or requires instability or inconsistency. Graz'zt's aim is that of all demon lords: a world of chaos and evil ruled by him. |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 19:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Graz'zt's aim is that of all demon lords: a world of chaos and evil ruled by him.
that's another thing I don't get, "Chaos ruled by [anyname]", an oxymoron if you ask me. |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 20:04:36
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| Slaadi Lords. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 20:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Slaadi Lords. :)
Elves. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 20:38:59
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| It's only an oxymoron according to a different sense of 'chaos' from that used in D&D alignments. |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 01:52:05
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| D&D has it's own definition of chaos? where? I only seen alignments defined in SRD, and meaning of chaos there seems to agree with common use of the word. |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 06:01:06
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Read the Elric Saga. It's one of the major inspirations for D&D alignment. In it, the Champion of Chaos (unwillingly, at parts) is in fact the Emperor of a major kingdom, and another major adversary of Law is the Sorcerer-Ruler of a nation.
And they are also FANTASTIC. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 19 Jun 2006 06:01:25 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 10:07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Slaadi Lords. :)
Elves. :)
Elves? I heard that word before, but where? 
Matter of factly, I use the devils and demons by description, not only by alignments given. Matter of factly, I rarely use the D&D-cast-into-stone alignment that often in general either. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 19:44:37
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| D&D's alignment system (at least in 2E, and specifically in Planescape) was never cast in stone. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Nightbreeze
Acolyte
Italy
33 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 19:20:12
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| Yes, Planescape is the best for alignament, but try to forget all 2.0 stuff and read the 3.0 and 3.5 PHB ...there it seems to be cast in iron. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 23:08:41
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| That's what I said. But then some 3E players disagree with that fact... |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 23:16:53
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| Alignment is something that a lot of players -- regardless of edition -- just don't seem to fully grasp. A lot of people blame the system, and say it's broken. I just think it needs to be a little more clearly explained, since so many people just don't get it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2006 : 23:42:48
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| I think that's what the BoVD and the BoED actually tried to do for 3E... |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 03:46:56
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I think what happens a lot of times is that someone wants an ACTION to be LG or CG or what have you. What actually happens, as I see it, is that a lot of LG and CG characters might end up performing the exact same action, but the thought process that leads to the decision to do the action are different. Its the thought process, the emotions, that really determine alignment, not the action in and of itself.
At least, thats how I have always seen it. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 07:00:33
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| A creature being CE does not exclude it from having appreciation of organization... at any given moment. I have always seen the chaotic alignment as a "do what you feel like doing right here right now" kind of thread. Any nominally CE creature that acts in a lawful matter does just that: ACT in a lawful manner, now, at this precise moment in time. They may do it because they feel like it, they may do it to confound expectations (causing confusion), or because a little birdie told them to. Chaotics don't always act in a chaotic manner - that would make them predictable and therefore less chaotic. Somewhere in its subconscious Graz'zt is probably having a jolly good time, seeing all the Abyss-watchers scratch their heads, trying to figure out why one of the epithomes of chaotic evil is acting contrary to its nature... Every CE goes through an "act lawful" phase on occasion. It's just that Graz'zt's has lasted longer than anyone else's... |
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Why is Graz'zt CE?
