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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 05:40:37
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I'm looking to have the BBEG of the campaign I'm running create a dead magic zone to use against the PCs. Another poster brought up a similar topic on the WotC FR boards, but that thread seems to have become muddled and I can't find a constructive response anymore.
Is a Shadow Weave user able to use a wish or other spell to create a dead magic zone in the Weave? What about a Weave user creating one in the Weave? The WotC discussion more or less says that Mystra would instantly prevent any new dead magic zones from coming into existence. Which is doable since she controls magic and the main method for creating dead magic zones is through spell casting. If that is the case, what are some alternatives? Do dead magic zones still exist?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 09:29:24
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Yes, dead magic zones do still exist.
However... These things are created by doing damage to the Weave. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a way to intentionally create one. I can see someone intentionally exploiting an existing one, but I can't think of a way to create one. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 11:32:22
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A Shadow Weave user would be more likely to get away with creating dead magic zones in the Weave. Mystra has the ability to cut off anyone from the Weave who tries to damage it or magic, and she also cannot sense when someone she has cut off gains magic through the shadow weave.
That said I can't think of a way off the top of my head to create one, but it's almost impossible that a Weave user would be able to do it |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 13:57:06
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Hello-
I agree - exploiting an existing Dead Magic Zone would be feasible (and it seems - likely) but creating one would be near-impossible.
However - one minor clairification - creating one *Intentionally* should be near-impossible. I suppose that the site of a titanic magical duel/battle, or maybe somewhere that an artifact has been destroyed - might *Randomly* create a DMZ - but I dont think that if this was to ever happen - that any person involved could/should be able to re-create the circumstances around it.
Dhomal |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 15:17:47
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The fact that shadow weave magic works in a dead magic zone is just evil and your PC's are probably not going to like to find out that their magic doesn't work. Oh the complaining that will ensue!  You can do a lot with this idea. Maybe you have the arch villian break an artifact of goodness at the site you want the dead magic zone. Then let the chaos begin. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:09:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Hello-
I agree - exploiting an existing Dead Magic Zone would be feasible (and it seems - likely) but creating one would be near-impossible.
However - one minor clairification - creating one *Intentionally* should be near-impossible. I suppose that the site of a titanic magical duel/battle, or maybe somewhere that an artifact has been destroyed - might *Randomly* create a DMZ - but I dont think that if this was to ever happen - that any person involved could/should be able to re-create the circumstances around it.
Dhomal
Large areas of the Faerun have been blasted by mage battles and godwars (e.g. the Evermoors and the Plain of Purple Sands) without dead magic zones appearing, so the level of Weave destruction needed to create one must be truly titanic!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:30:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Large areas of the Faerun have been blasted by mage battles and godwars (e.g. the Evermoors and the Plain of Purple Sands) without dead magic zones appearing, so the level of Weave destruction needed to create one must be truly titanic!
Actually, I'm not entirely sure about that... Those events happened long ago. It's possible that dead magic areas did form, but either the Weave has since been repaired in those areas, or it slowly healed itself. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:38:38
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The debate on dead magic zones exist is subject to change.
From what I infer from Ed says, Mystra's Chosen can remove dead magic zones and tame wild magic zones. Further that Shadow Weave can also have both types of zones, but rarer because of the limited use of Shadow Weave.
It is clear, at least to me, that Shadow weave can exist in Weave Daed Magic zones, it appears posible that the Weave can exist in dead Shadow Weave zones.
As far as a term "Large Areas" the term is not descriptive enough. To a mage or other spell caster a 5 mile section of Dead magic might consider that a large area |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 23:06:48
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I personally don't see a problem with a Shadow Weave user, using a Wish or Miracle to create a Dead Magic Zone.
I think it was mentioned somewhere that Wish and Miracle spells could be used to restore Dead Magic Zones, but very slowly, since even those powerful spells can only affect a very small area at a time. Maybe a 20' x 20' area at most, but given enough time and determination, the BBEG could either cover his "Throne Room" or even his base with a Dead Magic Zone.
Also there are naturally occuring Dead Magic Zones too, so the BBEG could have found one, and used that to his advantage.
Remember in the Crusade series when the Horde lured the forces of the West into a HUGE Dead Magic Zone? That has been there for a very long time. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 23:54:26
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Thanks for the input everyone. Interestingly, there is a mix of opinions on the matter. The sentiment on the WotC seemed to be overwhelmingly against a shadow weave wish being capable of creating a dead magic zone in the weave. The idea is that Mystra would automatically counter such a spell since it directly threatens not only her portfolio, but her divine physical being as well. It makes sense, but I would like a more definite official answer than the heavy opinionated responses at the WotC boards, if one is available.
I realize this isn't of dire importance, but I try to keep the game consistent with existing lore, less of a headache when something else related crops up only for me to find that I've changed something significantly.
I do like the alternatives proposed, making use of an existing dead magic zone (most feasible), destroying a artifact (I can work with this one), some sort of purposeful titanic magical mishap (more difficult but good for building up the BBEG into "OMG's he is scary"). |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 07:01:43
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I was the main person saying that using a Wish to create a DMZ was very unlikely, by the way. ;) And I still stand by that.
As stated, it takes deific battles and direct destruction to the Weave itself (in ways that we haven't seen since the Time of Troubles or Karsus's Avatar - which was the result of a 12th level spell) to cause such areas to be born. I couldn't see a single 9th level spell doing the same. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 07:19:00
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I just wouldn't have Mystra do anything (directly) about it. IMO the "Mystra is hands-on with everything in the novels, so she's obviously going to be hands on RE: Dead Magic Zones via Wish" stigma is at play here, and ought to be ignored straight away!
She's a **goddess**, mind, who has a plethora of terribly powerful servants at her disposal to handle such things as fool-mages and worse spending their life essence (read: XP) to create dead magic zones.
And since the first caveat of the 3E Realms is, "The Players to the Fore", and the second is, "Free Will for All, or what's the point of the damn game?", methinks a near-omnipotent goddess would very well save her servant-resources in lieu of a group of heroes (such as your players --see, you're on the right track!) taking care of things on their own.
As for whether Wish/Miracle can do the trick: sure, why not? Just keep it limited (no reason for these **9th level** spells to be able to rend more of an area than they can fix). If you need a bigger area, then have your BBEG 'add on' to an existing area (maybe his research has led him to figure out how to expand a DMZ), or perhaps word the Wish/Miracle to move a Dead Magic area or areas. --I think it's within the bounds of wish/miracle to allow a caster to pull multiple Zones into one big one.
Anyway, whatever you do don't get stuck on the lore. Set up a reasonable back story, challenge your players with the DMZ and do what you can to make it challenging and fun for everyone.
That last is the point of the game, right? 
Good Luck!
J. Grenemyer
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 18 Jun 2006 07:20:09 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 19:36:05
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I really don't think there's any point in arguing 3E methodology when we're talking about the realistic actions going on in Faerun. Ed Greenwood himself doesn't seem to think the 3E methodology applies at all to the Realms, so they're not going to function according to those ideaologies in gameplay.
And yes.. Please do get stuck on the lore! Without the lore, you have no setting. If you don't want lore, play in a generic world. :)
According to Ed, no mortal wizard can even manage to manipulate, move, or create one of the "sparks" described in Magic of Faerun. I doubt that they could do the same with a DMZ, which is pretty much on the same level.
Yes, he actually said that it's not possible, despite 3E's silly egocentric gaming personality.
The OP wouldn't be coming here asking this if he didn't want an answer based on a lore point of view, since otherwise the WotC boards would have sufficed. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 18 Jun 2006 19:38:51 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 02:03:38
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@GothicDan: Giggle.
So DMs who use 3E rules should pitch them out the window because of what you claim Ed thinks?
That’s too cute. I prefer to do my own thinking, thanks.
And let's not forget that you can have lore and ignore it, as oh-so-many DMs have done for years upon years, yetstill have great memories of playing in the setting the lore is based on.
***
@ Archwizard:
Other Possible DMZ sources:
What about a pillar or statue that is the focus of a DMZ, or a large gemstone that came from deep in the Underdark and is so infused with Faerzress radiation that it effectively acts as a DMZ above ground?
Or perhaps an item that acts like a “black hole” for magic over a limited area; something that automatically leeches power off of magic items and captures the energy of all spells cast (or that are active) in its area.
Items moved outside this area would gradually recharge and active spells whose durations hadn’t expired would become active again (but your players don’t need to know this upfront ;) ).
Also, it just occurred to me that in the modern Realms we've seen such things as magic fields the size of a whole nations that can catch any teleporting being within them and redirect the caster’s destination (into a roving point like Dragon's mouth, no less), not to mention magics that can re-write bardic lore over a whole region and effect the minds of hundreds of beings.
Creating a single dead magic zone, much less moving one seems hardly unreasonable by comparison.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 19 Jun 2006 02:05:55 |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 02:32:45
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First off....'you' are the DM and so by default overrule Mystra ;)
Now, most of us here like to defer to Master Greenwood since it is his realm (regardless of what copyrights might say ), but not all of us are lucky enough to know him and his gaming style personally...
...so I think there comes a point when you have to make the realms 'yours' for you and your group. DO what is going to make it fun for your players...you can sort out inconsistency later. Remember, your not trying to please people on these forums or any others...your trying to create an enjoyable experience for your players.
As to your rule you might consider:
Antimagic Field is a level 6 Arcane Spell - level 8 Divine (3.5PHB pg 200).
It only features a 10 ft radius centered on the caster....but perhaps you can begin with this as the basis of your dead magic area creation. This spell is the catalyst and some other magic serves to enhance it 1000 fold, (an artifact, an epic Netherise spell, etc...) |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 02:54:32
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| Knock it off you two, and that is going to be the only warning I'll give or I will start removing/editing posts. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Jun 2006 02:59:28 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2006 : 03:20:55
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Apologies.
The OP already came to the WotC forums once, and he decided that he WANTED to know what the canon lore stance was. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Dead Magic Zones
