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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 17:35:16
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Ok, I have just been reading the back story and timeline of The Ascension of Amaunator (PoF 61). Now this new series of events that occur in 1374 have me confused.
It is mostly based around new feats Initiate of Amaunator (Pof 58) and Heretic of the Faith (PoF 46).
While the events that occur are interesting, it seems to me that this schism within the church is something that Lathander can ill afford with his own plans in the works for the Deliverance (FaP 38).
Why is Lathander allowing for such a powerful heretic (Daelegoth Orndeir) to actually gain the ability to create and cast Epic spells and miracles?
It would seem to me (as a DM) that the church leaders that meet in Marsember should be able to commune and get some answers from Lathander who would not be pleased to have followers flocking to another faith. So this presents me with two possibilities
1. Lathander is not Amaunator – If this is true then the events of 1374 run the risk of hindering or delaying his plans/power by the turnover of followers to heresy. (So why is he empowering Daelegoth?)
2. Lathander is Amaunator (and knows it) – And he should just reveal this fact to the leaders of his faith to prevent potential inter-faith conflicts (thus weakening his base.)
3. Lathander is Amaunator (and does not know it) – Perhaps Lathlander is some form of reincarnation of Amaunator and AO has clouded his memory of his ‘past’ deity-hood.
I am curious to hear the sages’ thoughts on these events and their own thoughts on Lathander’s silence regarding this matter. 
Are there any other sources that the sages can recommend that might shed some more light on this enigma? 
edited for spelling - thanks Asgetrion 
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 15 Jun 2006 01:56:48
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 17:51:45
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The 3.5 Waterdeep sourcebook. The 2e deity trilogy, which started the whole is Lathander Amaunator debate since Eric wrote that in as a rumor....
Um Lost Empires, I think has some info... and Races of Faerun since says that Lathander is Amaunator reincarnated in the bedine section and in another section but I forgot which one. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Jun 2006 17:52:45 |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 18:37:17
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I do recall reading about both The Heretical Following of Amunator, and the rumors surrounding the Sun God. One of them Mention Amunator living on as a very minor Bedine Deity of Vengeance (although I cannot recall if it was Lost Empires Or Races of Faerun. I think It was Lost Empires)
EDIT NOTE: Will post more when I have My Books to reference. I Myself am most pleased with the New attention Amunator has started gaining  |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 14 Jun 2006 18:39:10 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 23:05:22
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My fellow scribes Chyron and Cardinal, the correct spelling for the deities is Amaunator and Lathander - not Amunator or Lathlander  (my apologies for nitpicking) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 23:35:48
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LOL Of course Your Not Forgiven!!!  j/k
Thanks, Like I said I'm with out My Books but I suppose I've just gotten sloppy in not paying attention to Chyron or Kuje's spellings.  |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 06:41:46
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| The problem with the Lathander/Amunautor schism is that it seems like there will be an endless display of new heresies. Frighteningly enough, one of my players is on the verge of creating his OWN heresy, which says "It does not matter, Aumnator is Lathander, and has always been Lathander, all branches of the faith are one!" So I may have a new heresy to deal with. (Yippeee!) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2006 : 08:13:02
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Maybe Lathander doesn't want his clergy to know for certain. Or maybe HE doesn't even know for sure.
Gods work in mysterious ways. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 10:17:42
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Information in the 3.5 Waterdeep book is on p. 41. It states that "the Monestic Abbot of the Order of the Sun of Waterdeep Hanor Kichavo is attempting to unify the three sects of the order (one following Lathander, Sune and Selune respectively). based on historical texts thatsurvived the Netheres diasora and the fall of Calmishan's Cajaan dynasty, he preahces that Lathander Selune and Sune are tripartite fragments of Amaunator and htat the Yellow God shall rise anew once the three are unified to form the one."
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 11:11:13
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I wouldnt be suprised if Aos behind it
We know from F&P that Lathanders playing around with his "destroy all evil" rituals and I think we could safely say AO does want his precious balance disturbed again. Hes probably hoping that spliting Lathanders church will either a) distract him from playing with his rituals or b) cripple him so he wont have the divine power to perform his rituals |
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Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 11:18:14
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We have never actually heard of AO directly interfering in divine affairs other than the ToT and his dispersal of Mystra's power into the Chosen.
I doubt he's behind this. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 12:27:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Why is Lathander allowing for such a powerful heretic (Daelegoth Orndeir) to actually gain the ability to create and cast Epic spells and miracles?
Maybe because Lathander is not granting him the abilities after all. What about Horus-Re, the Mulhorandi God of Sun? Just an idea.... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 17:59:02
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Thats a logical idea Dargoth...and one I can buy as an explanation.
Ergdusch...the problem I have with your theory is that if another deity is actually behind the empowerment of Daelegoth, I don't see Lathander being silent and letting his followers drift ower to this heresy that someone is preaching in his name...I would think he would quite quickly put a stop to it...
edited: spelling |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 24 Jun 2006 05:35:36 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 20:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Thats a logical idea Dargoth...and once I can buy as an explanation.
Ergdusch...the problem I have with your theory is that if another deity is actually behind the empowerment of Daelegoth, I don't see Lathander letting being silent and letting his followers drift ower to this heresy that someone is preaching in his name...I would think he would quite quickly put a stop to it...
That seems possible. But if Ao was behind it, that would mean he is granting the spells. Would not Lathander intervine in similar ways?
And what do you think about the "tripartite fragments" theory introduced in the Waterdeep sourcebook? If that was true, 2 other deities besides Lathander would not be imused either.
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 21:05:32
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| .. And unless someone is threatening his personal power or not falling within the boundaries of one's divine portfolio, AO doesn't give a hoot about what's happening. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 21:25:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Thats a logical idea Dargoth...and once I can buy as an explanation.
Ergdusch...the problem I have with your theory is that if another deity is actually behind the empowerment of Daelegoth, I don't see Lathander letting being silent and letting his followers drift ower to this heresy that someone is preaching in his name...I would think he would quite quickly put a stop to it...
That seems possible. But if Ao was behind it, that would mean he is granting the spells. Would not Lathander intervine in similar ways?
And what do you think about the "tripartite fragments" theory introduced in the Waterdeep sourcebook? If that was true, 2 other deities besides Lathander would not be imused either.
It is Canon that Ao does not grant spells.
He doesn't answer prayers or anything, he is beyond the reach of mortals.
The only reason mortals even know of him was because of the events in Waterdeep during the ToT. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 21:33:26
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| And with his departure he erased all knowledge of his existence. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 23:26:23
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| But if it is not Ao interfiring, nor any other Gods work, than it must be Lathander himself granting the miracles. Could he just claim the name of the old God in hope of gaining additional followers than? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 01:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
But if it is not Ao interfiring, nor any other Gods work, than it must be Lathander himself granting the miracles. Could he just claim the name of the old God in hope of gaining additional followers than?
Wouldn't be surprised, see Lathander is Neutral Good (Evil), He is all for HIS version of Good.  |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 01:10:44
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
.. And unless someone is threatening his personal power or not falling within the boundaries of one's divine portfolio, AO doesn't give a hoot about what's happening.
Actually if its one thing AO cares about its the Balance and Lathanders Deliverance which will destroy all evil is a massive threat to AOs balance.
Also Realmslore doesnt say AO CANT grant spells if says he chooses not to and this mainly in relation to a cult of AO who appeared after the time of troubles. AO choose to grant spells in Amaunator name then there really isnt any reason why he cant (Hes an Overgod after all)
It could also be that AO is going to ressurrect Amaunator and hes using the split in the Lathander followers to create a ready made church of Amaunator for when AO resurrects him
This works as a good punishment for Lathander as it will result in a loss of power for him
It will force Lathander to concentrate on his church instead of fooling around doing things he shouldnt
It creates a rivial to Lathander as Amaunator will be a similar deity to Lathander
For these reasons the church of Lathander split has AOs influence all over it |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 04:02:53
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| Perhaps it's Lathander embracing his aspect of new beginings and letting his clergy decide the direction that his church will go in. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 04:27:48
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| Assuming you are all correct, why did Lathander NOT stop the Fey'ri from destroying the temple in Myth Drannor? This is the contradiction inherent in the problem. If you assume that the split is allowed by Lathander, there is no way that he would allow ANY portion of his church to come under seige. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 05:47:51
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And with his departure he erased all knowledge of his existence.
Well, if video games are considered Canon at all then this is not entirely true....because Shadows of Undrentide features a cult of followers who venerate AO.
quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
Perhaps it's Lathander embracing his aspect of new beginings and letting his clergy decide the direction that his church will go in.
Its possible....but then not too bright on his part. Such a schism among followers is bound to weaken his base (through infighting and migration of followers), which is something I think he could ill afford if he is aiming for accomplishing the Deliverance. |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 05:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Well, if video games are considered Canon at all then this is not entirely true....because Shadows of Undrentide features a cult of followers who venerate AO.
However, as we've discussed with WOTC over the years, the video games aren't considered canon only the printed material based on them are. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 05:52:26
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Assuming you are all correct, why did Lathander NOT stop the Fey'ri from destroying the temple in Myth Drannor? This is the contradiction inherent in the problem. If you assume that the split is allowed by Lathander, there is no way that he would allow ANY portion of his church to come under seige.
Temples being attacked and destroyed is not a new thing, nor is it unique to this situation. Without direct intervention -- which isn't something the gods do a lot of -- there's not much he could do.
Besides, a further reason for it not to be a contradiction: if something falls, it can be rebuilt. Lathander is all about rebirth... |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 06:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Well, if video games are considered Canon at all then this is not entirely true....because Shadows of Undrentide features a cult of followers who venerate AO.
However, as we've discussed with WOTC over the years, the video games aren't considered canon only the printed material based on them are. :)
Ah...that's right....its those darn BG novels....I always forget about them and that gets me confused, between games and novels 
Semi-
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In the recent novel The Ruin, there was a good section where Pavel (cleric of Lathander) was starts to lose his connection to his deity. It was nicely written and one of the first times I had seen the connection between cleric and deity depicted in a manner that sort of fell in line with my own style of thinking...
But perhaps in this instance I am just being to rigid in my ideas of the cleric - deity connections regarding this issue/event
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 24 Jun 2006 06:24:25 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 07:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
.. And unless someone is threatening his personal power or not falling within the boundaries of one's divine portfolio, AO doesn't give a hoot about what's happening.
Actually if its one thing AO cares about its the Balance and Lathanders Deliverance which will destroy all evil is a massive threat to AOs balance.
Also Realmslore doesnt say AO CANT grant spells if says he chooses not to and this mainly in relation to a cult of AO who appeared after the time of troubles. AO choose to grant spells in Amaunator name then there really isnt any reason why he cant (Hes an Overgod after all)
It could also be that AO is going to ressurrect Amaunator and hes using the split in the Lathander followers to create a ready made church of Amaunator for when AO resurrects him
This works as a good punishment for Lathander as it will result in a loss of power for him
It will force Lathander to concentrate on his church instead of fooling around doing things he shouldnt
It creates a rivial to Lathander as Amaunator will be a similar deity to Lathander
For these reasons the church of Lathander split has AOs influence all over it
Per Core Rules, an Over God, a Diety with a Divine Rank over 20 is so far beyond the mortal keen, they are unable to grant spells to mortals. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 07:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Well, if video games are considered Canon at all then this is not entirely true....because Shadows of Undrentide features a cult of followers who venerate AO.
However, as we've discussed with WOTC over the years, the video games aren't considered canon only the printed material based on them are. :)
Yep and anything based on Neverwinter Nights is Definately NOT Canon anyhow. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 08:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Well, if video games are considered Canon at all then this is not entirely true....because Shadows of Undrentide features a cult of followers who venerate AO.
However, as we've discussed with WOTC over the years, the video games aren't considered canon only the printed material based on them are. :)
Yep and anything based on Neverwinter Nights is Definately NOT Canon anyhow.
amen brother I have conveniently forgotten either BG or NWN as far as canon material. The RPG computer games are great, but they need to stay in that department... video games IMO, any novels that came about as a result of the video games are just fluff |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 10:48:45
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
...The RPG computer games are great, but they need to stay in that department... video games IMO, any novels that came about as a result of the video games are just fluff
Scererar, does that include modules that are based on video games that also come out as books (Pool of Radiance....Curse of the Azure Bonds)? And BG2 has a guide by Volo if I recall, still not good enough for canon???
anyway...
Does anyone think (or any insiders can possibly comment on) that Lathander's Deliverance is going to take the stage soon as a realms event (such as Thousand Orcs, WOSQ or Year of Rogue Dragons)? Does anyone get the feeling that these events are definately tied together or is this just a case of new crunch (Initiate of Amaunator and Heretic of the Faith - PoF) conflicting with old fluff (Lathander's lore FaP)? |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 16:44:33
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The Volo's Guide to BG2 contains no information about the game. It only contains information about the setting, which Ed wrote because they needed a quick supplement so Ed formalized his notes on the region, got a check, and there was some cross-marketing. (BAMF, Magic Wand...)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 16:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
The Volo's Guide to BG2 contains no information about the game. It only contains information about the setting, which Ed wrote because they needed a quick supplement so Ed formalized his notes on the region, got a check, and there was some cross-marketing. (BAMF, Magic Wand...)
And Steven gave an in game reason for the name change in his Candlekeep Collection of books, since that tome was supposed to be called Volo's Guide to the Lands of Intrigue. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Here comes the sun?
