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 Of worship and veneration…
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Chyron
Learned Scribe

Hong Kong
279 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2006 :  12:41:04  Show Profile  Visit Chyron's Homepage Send Chyron a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
This is related to the discussion started by Brenigin’s post on Worshiping, but I wanted to spin it off here since I felt it would probably lead away from his initial question.

On the concept of Worship, veneration and other terms (homage and patronage come to mind). How are ‘churches’ in regard to such cross-pantheonic practices?

What is deemed as homage, patronage, and worship?

For example…if an injured party enters a temple of Ilmater. Pays for healing and is asked to hear a sermon afterward…

Would not some churches disapprove (even to the point of violence) members who were found to venerate ‘other’ deities? And what defines venerate? Would healing or other sought divine service cease to function in such case?

If a party seeks out a temple of Ilmater for healing…would they refuse healing to someone who was a known faithful (but not a cleric) of Lovitar?

Would someone who speaks a minor phrase in the name of a deity or swears be frowned upon?

Is a saying like…

“By Helm’s sight…”

or

“You’ve the tongue of Cyric in your mouth…”

considered sacrilegious to faithful or seen as beneficial (i.e. spreading the name of their god, etc)

Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)

Kentinal
Great Reader

4688 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2006 :  13:30:40  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is no universal answer, different dieties are honored by different things. Some look for sacifice, goods works, pray, quest, etc. The same applies to whom aid might be given to, some religions offer a helping hand to almost anyone, others could be mostly into selling spells not caring whom the person is. Others might restrict aid to followers of allied deities only, or posible converts.

As for using a name of a diety to praise that should not be a problem, people know that there are many deities. I do not believe that many religions would be upset about a non follower praising their deity.

Now insulting a deity can have many diverse replies, some might shake head in pity for the lack of understanding of the deity, others could very seek to kill the blasphemer for the insult to their deity.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2006 :  13:59:28  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This sounds like a thought worth pursueing.

Since I do not own Faiths & Pantheons yet, and from my recollection Faiths&Avatars and its companion volumes don't elaborate on this issue I'd have to make an 'educated' guess...

Ilmater's faithful might still aid a follower of Loviatar, if this follower chooses not to desecrate the rights and/or does not wear his faith as a badge, so to speak. From what I understand the faiths of Faerûn don't burn offenders/heretics at the stake. Especially since we deal with a pantheon, every deity has a position/role to play.

In faerûnian society a follower of Torm would still make offerings to Umberlee (sp?) were he to make a sea voyage. Besides, if the customer is paying and does not disturb day to day activities why shouldn't he/she receive healing, if the deity doesn't agree he could still deny the power...

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2006 :  15:55:44  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't remember where it is now, though I think its right in the FRCS, where it mentions that people choose their patron as their "main guide" through life, and the god that will determine their afterlife, but that not even that god expects that they will never have prayers for other gods that have influence over their lives. Even the staunchest paladin of Tyr might say a prayer to Chauntea if he has a garden at home to tend. I know it seems like a minor example, but you get the point.

Of course, there is a difference between saying a prayer or giving an offering at an appropriate time, and attending rituals, and performing services for another church. Going to a church of Lathander for healing if you are a Tyrran paladin isn't likely to cause any harm. Showing up everyday for sunrise service thereafter might start to aggrivate ol' grimjaws.

One of the things I had always surmised was that a lot of people must be saying supplications to Talos and making offerings to him, because I don't picutre a large group of people that worship Talos as their patron.

Now when it comes to having multiple patrons, gods whose worship guides one's life, things get a little stickier. I don't think there is much of a problem with the multiple patrons if you are going to the same place in the afterlife, for example. Torm, Tyr, Ilmater, and Helm all reside on the same plane, so its not likely an issue. But in cases where one of the other patrons resides in a different plane, then you might have an issue, and perhaps have a choice over which one actually guides your soul in the afterlife.

Also, if all of my guess work and opinion in the above means anything, then its not nearly that big a deal for those dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings, and orcs that venerate multiple deities, since their gods share planes.

As I said above though, this is just my opinion taken from various snippets of lore, and as Ed has said a few times, its funny to think that mortal characters will fully understand how things work for the gods, though as DMs and readers we have a tendancy to want to be able to make absolute assessements.
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Vainelus
Seeker

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2006 :  16:59:42  Show Profile  Visit Vainelus's Homepage Send Vainelus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The passage in FRCS KnightErrantJr is referring to is titled religion and is located on pg 39. In my game, even clerics and paladins occasionally attend other deites services. Not regularly like in the example of the Tyrran paladin that begins daily attending services at the temple to Lathander, but in a small rural village nearly everyone would attend an outdoor ritual performed by the clerics of Chauntea to ensure a good harvest. Most human weddings, if not performed by a cleric of Sune, at least invite one to attend the ceremony and confer Sune's blessings.

Now there is a certain point when this good natured working together efforts would end. For instance, the clergy of Ilmater might heal a well known patron of Loviatar, but I would think that there may be a sudden price increase on healing spells before the patron gets healed. Also, if the rivalry between Loviatar and Ilmater is particularly tense in the area such as open fighting between the two temples, it is unlikely the clergy would provide aid. In general, clerics are aware of their deities enemies and not likely to help members of their enemies faith. What clerics will aid what other clerics always needs to be handle on a case by case basis.
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tauster
Senior Scribe

Germany
399 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2006 :  16:04:06  Show Profile  Visit tauster's Homepage Send tauster a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's slightly off topic, but "Power of Faerun" has a really interesting chapter about heretics and their role in shaping the faith.
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