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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2006 : 22:44:30
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Hmmm.....
Can someone explain to me how Cyric has rangers as clergy, according to Lords of Darkness... He's really not a ranger deity.... And he's not on the list in F&P....
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 27 May 2006 01:44:58
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 03:19:14
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| He was not a wizard or a sorcerer, but it talks about those also on page 7 of lords of darkness. My thinking is that according to the LoD, the church recruits, converts and brainwashes anyone possible, who would follow the cause. In my interpretation of the tome, it seems to describe more of allies and the personalities of those allies, rather than a "ranger" of cyric. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 03:27:10
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
He was not a wizard or a sorcerer, but it talks about those also on page 7 of lords of darkness. My thinking is that according to the LoD, the church recruits, converts and brainwashes anyone possible, who would follow the cause. In my interpretation of the tome, it seems to describe more of allies and the personalities of those allies, rather than a "ranger" of cyric.
HMMM,
I suppose that's possible but it specifically says on page 7 in the bottom bar "Ranger of Cyric.... As does page 11 where it lists ranger of Cyric starting items.
It doesn't matter that he wasn't a wizard or sorcerer since arcane spells don't come from a deity, while divine spells do. So my question stands, how does he have rangers? Who gives them thier spells since he's not listed anywhere, except in LoD, as having ranger followers and he's not a "nature deitiy", etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Edited by - Kuje on 27 May 2006 03:28:46 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 03:49:43
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good question, my friend Kuje. I can see how the church of Cyric could use rangers and such, just by reading through the entries in LoD. However, you are right, I do not see how a ranger would/ could receive any divine spells. I do not see Cyric allowing his followers to worship anyone else. So as long as a ranger was not of suffiecient levels to be able to receive divine "nature" spells, their would be not be an issue, so we have until 6th level  |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 04:10:33
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Hello-
I wonder if Rangers of Cyric would be more 'evil, strife' influenced - and not necessarilly be as concerned with nature. Or, perhaps - you could even imagine them as 'Anti-Rangers'. Just a thought or two.
Dhomal |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 04:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
good question, my friend Kuje. I can see how the church of Cyric could use rangers and such, just by reading through the entries in LoD. However, you are right, I do not see how a ranger would/ could receive any divine spells. I do not see Cyric allowing his followers to worship anyone else. So as long as a ranger was not of suffiecient levels to be able to receive divine "nature" spells, their would be not be an issue, so we have until 6th level
Yeah that's what I was thinking. Sigh. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 04:15:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Hello-
I wonder if Rangers of Cyric would be more 'evil, strife' influenced - and not necessarilly be as concerned with nature. Or, perhaps - you could even imagine them as 'Anti-Rangers'. Just a thought or two.
Dhomal
See, now the anti-ranger bit I can buy but as normal PHB rangers, it doesn't make much sense..... especially since I checked old lore about him and Faiths & Pantheons, etc, and it doesn't have anything on him being a ranger deity.
Very odd. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 05:53:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hmmm.....
Can someone explain to me how Cyric has rangers as clergy, according to Lords of Darkness... He's really not a ranger deity.... And he's not on the list in F&P....
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 05:59:06
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor.
Oh.
Well, I still find it weird. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 06:38:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor.
Oh.
Well, I still find it weird. :)
Also, as I recall... the RANGER entry in the FRCS tells us that some rangers, with odd interests, often select patron deities outside the regular deity preferences for the druid and ranger classes.
EDIT: Just looked it up -- it's on pg. 26.
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Edited by - The Sage on 27 May 2006 06:39:10 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 06:57:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Also, as I recall... the RANGER entry in the FRCS tells us that some rangers, with odd interests, often select patron deities outside the regular deity preferences for the druid and ranger classes.
EDIT: Just looked it up -- it's on pg. 26.
Nod, but I still find it odd that he has rangers. :) Ah well, I'd add it to my list of things to ignore but he's not even a deity in my FR. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:09:58
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It's never been a factor for me anyway because, as you know, I don't have Cyric in my FR either. But also, I usually house-rule the fact that rangers, like druids, must select a deity that has nature and/or animal aspects in his/her portfolio in order to receive divine magic for their spells.
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor.
Well, considering the importance of the Weave on Toril, one could perhaps make the case that Mystra has a bit to do with nature. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:34:55
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You could take a different view, if one remembers that FR is not monothist. It is not like there is only one true deity. The patron deity is just the one most closely aligned with, that does not mean other deities are not believed in or concepts like nature. Following Ed's concept that up to level 2 spells are granted by deities in most cases without any consideration of degree of worship (in effect not noticed by granting deity at all) a ranger could select any patron deity and not worry about not getting spells until level 11 (1st time one can get a 3rd level spell if stat high enough).
Yes it might be odd, but when you can have varient rangers and rangers casting divine spells in the first place they were already odd. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:35:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's never been a factor for me anyway because, as you know, I don't have Cyric in my FR either. But also, I usually house-rule the fact that rangers, like druids, must select a deity that has nature and/or animal aspects in his/her portfolio in order to receive divine magic for their spells.
Same with me, which is probably why I found rangers of Cyric so.... odd. :)
I can see Mystra having some for the reasons stated, but Cyric? Weird. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 07:36:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
You could take a different view, if one remembers that FR is not monothist. It is not like there is only one true deity. The patron deity is just the one most closely aligned with, that does not mean other deities are not believed in or concepts like nature. Following Ed's concept that up to level 2 spells are granted by deities in most cases without any consideration of degree of worship (in effect not noticed by granting deity at all) a ranger could select any patron deity and not worry about not getting spells until level 11 (1st time one can get a 3rd level spell if stat high enough).
Yes it might be odd, but when you can have varient rangers and rangers casting divine spells in the first place they were already odd.
I'd agree with that but the FRCS doesn't back any of that up. :) By 4th character level, you must have a patron. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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nb_nmare
Acolyte
United Kingdom
32 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 10:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor.
Actually, Mystra has had rangers since at least Faiths & Avatars, if not even further back. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 14:00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, not sure, but my general assumption was that a Ranger could follow any deity they wished, whether it was a nature deity or not. After all Mystra has Rangers as of Champions of Valor.
Oh.
Well, I still find it weird. :)
Also, as I recall... the RANGER entry in the FRCS tells us that some rangers, with odd interests, often select patron deities outside the regular deity preferences for the druid and ranger classes.
EDIT: Just looked it up -- it's on pg. 26.
And Talona has druid followers, although she is not a "nature deity" as such. Eric (Boyd) replied to me, that he has always felt that virtually ANY deity could have ranger/druid followers... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 15:57:37
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I would think, in the long veiw, almost any deity can grant any kind of divine power they want to. Gond could have a druid if he wanted to, but its not going to do much good for his overall worship, and the druid in question isn't likely to remain true to Gond if he reveres nature deeply enough, so thats why we see "nature" gods develop. The gods most likely to support druids and rangers are the ones that have some kind of stake in how the classes advance the deities overall goals.
Rangers "feel" a bit more wide open to me. You can have a warrior that loves the outdoors, understands animals, hunting, and trapping, but also loves the land he lives in, and uses his skills to track down naer'do wells in the wilds, and worships Tyr . . . Tyr isn't a "nature" god, but the ranger aids his overall goals well.
That having been said, it might take a bit more brainstorming to come up with what Cyric gets out of sponsoring rangers. Perhaps there is a specific order of Cyricist rangers that hunts and murders humans, thus fulfilling that part of Cyric's portfolio? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 17:21:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And Talona has druid followers, although she is not a "nature deity" as such. Eric (Boyd) replied to me, that he has always felt that virtually ANY deity could have ranger/druid followers...
Well, Talona is on the druid/ranger deity list in F&P and I can see why, since some of her ports could be reflected as natureish. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 17:23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
That having been said, it might take a bit more brainstorming to come up with what Cyric gets out of sponsoring rangers. Perhaps there is a specific order of Cyricist rangers that hunts and murders humans, thus fulfilling that part of Cyric's portfolio?
This, I think, is why it seems odd to me. What does he get out of having rangers and honestly, as I said a few times, his portfolios are not natureish.... I dunno, just seems strange to me. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 20:04:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And Talona has druid followers, although she is not a "nature deity" as such. Eric (Boyd) replied to me, that he has always felt that virtually ANY deity could have ranger/druid followers...
Well, Talona is on the druid/ranger deity list in F&P and I can see why, since some of her ports could be reflected as natureish. :)
True enough. I just love the idea of twisted druids unleashing strange diseases on civilizations around Faerūn 
Still, I feel that the Blightbringer PrC would have been designed for Moanderites, if Moander has been "alive" at the time it was published.
I agree with Knight, that IMO all the deities may grant any sort of divine powers/spells to their followers. Otherwise there would be no Paladins of Helm (since Helm has no paladin levels ;) or Helm would have to ask Tyr or Torm to give his poor paladins their spells 
Kuje - maybe we would need an "official" answer to this one? I like Knight's reasoning why there would be Cyric's rangers hunting and murdering people, and spreading fear of Cyric among mortals. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 21:36:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Kuje - maybe we would need an "official" answer to this one? I like Knight's reasoning why there would be Cyric's rangers hunting and murdering people, and spreading fear of Cyric among mortals.
I thought about asking Ed but I didn't get around to it. :) And I don't go to the WOTC boards to ask Rich.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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TheHermit
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 22:28:22
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| Perhaps a ranger of Cyric would base himself near a natural feature that fools the eye, such as in an area of the desert where mirages are well-known, or near a rock formation that resembles an old man sleeping or a camel, or on a so-called gravity hill, where a combination of visual references makes a downword slope appear to be an upward slope, causing things to roll uphill and such. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 23:40:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
And Talona has druid followers, although she is not a "nature deity" as such. Eric (Boyd) replied to me, that he has always felt that virtually ANY deity could have ranger/druid followers...
Well, Talona is on the druid/ranger deity list in F&P and I can see why, since some of her ports could be reflected as natureish. :)
True enough. I just love the idea of twisted druids unleashing strange diseases on civilizations around Faerūn
Still, I feel that the Blightbringer PrC would have been designed for Moanderites, if Moander has been "alive" at the time it was published.
I agree with Knight, that IMO all the deities may grant any sort of divine powers/spells to their followers. Otherwise there would be no Paladins of Helm (since Helm has no paladin levels ;) or Helm would have to ask Tyr or Torm to give his poor paladins their spells
Kuje - maybe we would need an "official" answer to this one? I like Knight's reasoning why there would be Cyric's rangers hunting and murdering people, and spreading fear of Cyric among mortals.
LoD shows that Cyric attempts to convert mosters and other exotic creatures towards his cause. I would picture a ranger of Cyric as being a scout/ bodyguard of sorts to clerics of Cyric, as stated within Lod. These Rangers would provide the scouting and wilderness lore, to enable the clerics to get to where they were going, to "preach" to these creatures. However, I do not have any type of answer for the divine spell portion. Additionally, I would disagree that Cyric would be "trusting" enough, to allow a follower to worship another god/ godess, in order to receive the divine spell aspect of the class. other deities, yes but not Cyric, he is not trusting or secure enough to allow this. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2006 : 23:44:30
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
However, I do not have any type of answer for the divine spell portion. Additionally, I would disagree that Cyric would be "trusting" enough, to allow a follower to worship another god/ godess, in order to receive the divine spell aspect of the class. other deities, yes but not Cyric, he is not trusting or secure enough to allow this.
These are the two things that made me go, "Ah? What?" I just can't see him as having spellcasting rangers and there's no other deity that he'd trust to supply ranger spells to his followers. :)
Ah well, maybe someday I'll ask Ed or a different game designer about it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 01:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
LoD shows that Cyric attempts to convert mosters and other exotic creatures towards his cause. I would picture a ranger of Cyric as being a scout/ bodyguard of sorts to clerics of Cyric, as stated within Lod. These Rangers would provide the scouting and wilderness lore, to enable the clerics to get to where they were going, to "preach" to these creatures.
Hmmm... I'm not sure rangers of Cyric would appreciate being tied to such a mundane task within the clerical order. Sure, they're providing the clergy with duties vital to the continued conversion of monstrous creatures... but rangers by their very "nature" (pun partially intended) are an independent and unconformist lot. They don't like to be tied to specific operations and/or rules -- and operating fully within a clerical hierarchy would seem to be the death of their independence and freedom.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 01:36:52
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Heh...
As it is... I'm still trying to understand *how* Cyric has rangers in the first place. I'd like that properly answered before I could even wonder about where such a class would fit into the clergy for the Dark Sun.
It's a hypothetical wondering of course... since I'd never actually allow this in my own FR.
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 02:04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
LoD shows that Cyric attempts to convert mosters and other exotic creatures towards his cause. I would picture a ranger of Cyric as being a scout/ bodyguard of sorts to clerics of Cyric, as stated within Lod. These Rangers would provide the scouting and wilderness lore, to enable the clerics to get to where they were going, to "preach" to these creatures.
Hmmm... I'm not sure rangers of Cyric would appreciate being tied to such a mundane task within the clerical order. Sure, they're providing the clergy with duties vital to the continued conversion of monstrous creatures... but rangers by their very "nature" (pun partially intended) are an independent and unconformist lot. They don't like to be tied to specific operations and/or rules -- and operating fully within a clerical hierarchy would seem to be the death of their independence and freedom.
I hear what you are saying my friend. I believe Kuje's thread here is very interesting.
It almost seems as if the author did not do that much research on the church of Cyric portion.
However on page 9 of LoD in the typical encounters section, it does state this very thing. In regards to bodyguards to clerics - one level lower than the leader, with barbarians used in barbarian lands,and fighters in civilized lands and well traveled roads. My friend the ranger fits in right afterwards, by being used in forested areas.
Still it does not answer the question of why and how one would receive divine spells, as the original topic here is asking, but if you do not use Cyric in your realms, not issue and at the end of the day.. is a mute point |
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TheHermit
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 02:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As it is... I'm still trying to understand *how* Cyric has rangers in the first place. I'd like that properly answered before I could even wonder about where such a class would fit into the clergy for the Dark Sun.
There is a certain school of thought that considers Nature = Chaos and Civilization = Order. It could be that rangers who take Cyric as a patron hold to that sort of thinking. |
- "Glitz & Klax's Potions & Elixirs"/"The Sandmen", Inside Ravens Bluff, The Living City; 1990; TSR, Inc.
- "The Far Guardians' Traveler's Mission", Port of Ravens Bluff; 1991, TSR, Inc.
- "Signs Painted", Polyhedron #70; April, 1992; TSR, Inc.
- Communications Director, Coliseum of Comics, Orlando, FL - http://coliseumofcomics.com/ |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2006 : 03:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
However on page 9 of LoD in the typical encounters section, it does state this very thing. In regards to bodyguards to clerics - one level lower than the leader, with barbarians used in barbarian lands,and fighters in civilized lands and well traveled roads.
One or two perhaps -- low-level rangers -- I can accept (and if the issue of *how* Cyric has rangers in the first place is properly explained too). But not something that suggests this is an aspect typical of rangers in general in terms of operating within Cyric's clergy.
It just doesn't fit with the mindset of being a ranger.
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Edited by - The Sage on 29 May 2006 03:21:51 |
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Cyric and Rangers
